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Yob80

AP shells, still a complete lottery and kinda pointless...

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Beta Tester
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ok this is half rant, half observation.  I have been going up the BB line for the yanks after going mainly cruisers, and so have started to use AP rounds an awful lot.  My beef is this.  Unless its a critadel, you do nothing.  Literally nothing.  Just now in my New Mexico, I was landing 7-8 hits per salvo against another New Mexico, hitting him from behind as he sailed away from me, and was hitting for about 2k damage per SALVO.  8 hits with AP for only 2k damage.  Yet again it begs the question, why use AP when even in a BB you can shoot HE and burn everything in sight with a 30% chance to start a fire.  In that game I had 52 hits, 33 pen'd with 1 citadel for a total of about 50,800 damage.  This equates to 1500 damage per shot that actually pen'd an enemy ship.  Considering how much damage was tied up with the citadel hit, the actual damage per pen'd hit would drop even more, as that 1 citadel could account for 1/5 of my total damage if it did in the 9-10k damage range.

 

Should AP shells have a higher base damage than HE to make them more viable? I will experiment with an all HE fight and see how the damage difference stacks up, but so far, unless you land a big hit with AP (which is totally up to RNGESUS) they are a bit underwhelming when they don't.

 

What have other people found with this? I do try to use AP exclusively against other BB's and yet don't find the results all that good.

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ok this is half rant, half observation.  I have been going up the BB line for the yanks after going mainly cruisers, and so have started to use AP rounds an awful lot.  My beef is this.  Unless its a critadel, you do nothing.  Literally nothing.  Just now in my New Mexico, I was landing 7-8 hits per salvo against another New Mexico, hitting him from behind as he sailed away from me, and was hitting for about 2k damage per SALVO.  8 hits with AP for only 2k damage.  Yet again it begs the question, why use AP when even in a BB you can shoot HE and burn everything in sight with a 30% chance to start a fire.  In that game I had 52 hits, 33 pen'd with 1 citadel for a total of about 50,800 damage.  This equates to 1500 damage per shot that actually pen'd an enemy ship.  Considering how much damage was tied up with the citadel hit, the actual damage per pen'd hit would drop even more, as that 1 citadel could account for 1/5 of my total damage if it did in the 9-10k damage range.

 

Should AP shells have a higher base damage than HE to make them more viable? I will experiment with an all HE fight and see how the damage difference stacks up, but so far, unless you land a big hit with AP (which is totally up to RNGESUS) they are a bit underwhelming when they don't.

 

What have other people found with this? I do try to use AP exclusively against other BB's and yet don't find the results all that good.

 

 

Bolded text is where your problem lies. At an angle, battleship guns start to have trouble penetrating other battleships (except for Yamato's guns, because Yamato). This goes double for closer ranges (<12km), because the flat angles means shells will either ricochet off the sides/deck, or slam into the superstructure for overpen damage, as you've noticed. It's a favoured tactic among battleship players to close in or move away with the narrowest profile possible to prevent an enemy battleship from getting the crucial citadels

 

Solution? Maneuver so you can hit their broadside. Hold your fire until they expose the broadside to fire, or have to turn to maneuver. If you absolutely, positively have to shoot them, aim high - make sure your AP shells are landing on the turrets, or just switch to HE and blast away at the superstructure until they start to turn.

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Beta Tester
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also don't shoot if the enemy BB is angled its armor, they will just bounce and do no damage. playing bb is about patience, hitting the enemy only when they expose their weak spot is more devastating than just firing your shots mindlessly.

Edited by yansuki

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Super Tester
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I don't play BB but experience from Tirpitz kinda dictates that AP is still my choice ammo against other BBs and/or ships except for DD. You have to study and observe the enemy's navigation pattern before you fire all your guns.

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Alpha Tester
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The game has all sorts of silly mechanics in it, where 'angling armour' (LMAO) is actually a thing, and HE spam will kill a proper BB (LMAO too).

 

It comes down to this: learn the various absurd mechanics and how to use/abuse them; leave any knowledge you might have of real naval warfare of the period at the door when you enter.

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Beta Tester
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Does this person has any relationship with the yobbo guy?

But i would love to use AP against enemy cruisers if i'm using another cruiser, or a battleship.

Edited by NguyenArchitakuVN

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Beta Tester
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Learn-To-Aim, I guess.

 

Using AP on the right target and range is also very important.

Say if you are >12km, I wouldn't even think of using AP in a Cleveland - But when say an Aoba rush me at less than 10km and show it's Gigantic Citadel, well then thanks for the free citadel hits.

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AP round use kinetic energy to penetrate the armor and explode inside the ship. HE round explode where ever they hit. The highest damage that can be archived by AP is to get the shell to explode in the citadel(part of the ship where engine, magazine and other critical module are at) which usually located in the very center part of the ship and heavily protected(this mean HE round have a very low chance to get there). HE round's primary target are the superstructure where there're not that heavily protected but there're Bridge, FireControlSystem, radar and more important(not that critical) part which were the commanding part of the ship but they're not as important as the one in the citadel(they can't operate from inside the citadel anyway). AP round damage output are affected by shell's impact speed, enemy's armor thickness and angle, where do you hit(if it's not important part like kitchen or bedroom damage will roll quite low when compared to hitting the engine area). so when you see and enemy pointing his bow or stern at you this mean his armor are at critical angle. most of AP round you land will likely ricochet and deal minor damage or they'd get throughout the super structure without exploding. meanwhile HE round have only 1 factor that affect the damage output which is where the shell hit. 

 

So, when you see an enemy pointing bow or stern at you or they're are at very long range don't bother using AP, stick with HE.

BUT, when the enemy show his broadside and close range HE will still do the same damage but AP will worth trying because you get the chance to punch a hole into his citadel which be dealing very high damage(if it penetrate and don't overpenetrate), high enough to wipe more than half of his full HP but again it's depend on your gun and the enemy's armor. when you're in USN DD you found Montana showing his broadside don't bother with AP since they'll bounce even at pointblank range(but shooting superstructure worth a try) or when you're in Cleveland seeing Kuma showing his broadside at 3km. use AP and you'll not regret.

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AP is very useful in Cruiser VS Cruiser scenarios. On BBs it's a lot more situational, I've been getting 1k dmg overpen, some 3k dmg in between and the occasional citadel jackpot. You just have to hit the right part (But given the BB's accuracy that's the real lottery, not penetrating)

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The game has all sorts of silly mechanics in it, where 'angling armour' (LMAO) is actually a thing, and HE spam will kill a proper BB (LMAO too).

 

It comes down to this: learn the various absurd mechanics and how to use/abuse them; leave any knowledge you might have of real naval warfare of the period at the door when you enter.

 

Steeltrap is correct.

 

Using any knowledge of actual fleet battle would suggest high angle attack with AP penetrating the deck would be the best attack.

The game is the complete opposite of this- it suggests BB should get up close so their rounds hit the target with minimal rise to go through the side of the ship to get to the citadel. It's absolutely absurd.

 

It's even more absurd when you get to know which ships are basically all citadel, and which have a minimal citadel size. Then you really start figuring out when to switch to AP and when not to.

 

In short- read what Steel said- and understand- this game has no basis in reality. They are tanks from WOT with all tank mechanics, remodelled and reskinned to look like ships- and there endeth the realism.

Edited by Osi

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Alpha Tester
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^

You expressed very well the detail of what I hinted at with my (somewhat tart) summary.

+1 (woohoo, lol)

 

p.s. The plunging fire one really ticks me off. Something like the Myogi is a disaster to take close because of its lousy 6 guns, but if you hit anything at range you almost have to use HE. It's incredibly annoying and bollocks. The whole reason HMS Hood was doing a YOLO towards Bismarck was to get INSIDE the plunging range as her commander well knew side hits were preferable to plunging ones (ideally you don't get hit at all, but you take your chances). This game turns that on its head. Sad to imagine how many people ignorant of naval combat (or tanks for WoT) will think they're learning something from this game. They'd be right, but not realise they're learning the WRONG things lol.

Edited by Steeltrap

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The game has all sorts of silly mechanics in it, where 'angling armour' (LMAO) is actually a thing, and HE spam will kill a proper BB (LMAO too).

 

It comes down to this: learn the various absurd mechanics and how to use/abuse them; leave any knowledge you might have of real naval warfare of the period at the door when you enter.

 

Spot on Steeltrap :honoring:

Couldn't be any more truer than your statement

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Alpha Tester
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Last night in the Warspite with AP:

 

4 hits

3 Citadels

2 Sinkings

 

I think AP is just fine - High skill, high reward.

 

You aim at a target presenting the right attitude (broadside is best) and hope RNG favours you.

 

Yes, there's skill in knowing the best angle at which to hit, and you have to lead correctly, but two people could do that perfectly and one get 4 citadels and the other miss entirely.

 

The more RNG involved the less skill is crucial. You can tip the odds in your favour (see my earlier comments) but claiming the results are a product of skill other than in the crudest of terms is wishful thinking at best.

Edited by Steeltrap

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it's probably worth adding- in reality, all ships had absolutely stupid amounts of armour around the belt of the ship- specifically on the sides of the hull near where critical systems were (eg. magazines, engines, fuel oil storage), and many even had a second hull for flooding reasons.

They did this because of the rather traditional fear of torpedos. None of them anticipated that dive bombers and plunging fire would be their undoing. 

 

 Specifically this image of the armour cross section of the Bismark-

 qst5yp.gif

 

You'll see that the bismark (like most battleships) had its almost thickest armour around the belt.

Its deck was only 50mm, the absolute thinnest part of the ship's defenses. You can even picture the AP shell landing on the deck and going down the layers to the magazine.

 

I do this, because I'd rather peeps not get salty at this thread and declare "nice topic, but its all anecdotal"...

It isnt, it is based on historical fact. It's an uncomfortable fact, but I do this to illustrate Steel's point.

Edited by Osi

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Alpha Tester
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To go further, the main deck was often deliberately thin, which sounds a bit odd until closer inspection.

 

You could only carry so much armour before weight became crazy (BBs of the time had astronomical amounts of weight simply as armour; as much as 40% of displacement). That then became a question of how best to use it.

 

Many went down the 'multiple armoured decks' route. The thinking being the first deck would be thick enough to trigger the fuse on an AP round. Large calibre AP rounds weighed a ton or more, but in fact mostly were made of the solid shot/wall of the shell with explosives within that; the 16" AP round from all the 'modern' USN BBs (tiers 8-10) weighed 1,255kg but had only 18.55kg explosives in them.

 

So you wanted the thing to go 'bang' before it got anywhere too dangerous. The main deck triggers the fuse, the idea being the subsequent decks (which in some cases were THICKER) were intended to slow the shell OR contain the splinters and unpleasantness caused when it did go bang (if you look at the schematic Osi posted you can see the 95mm on top of the magazines...spaced armour, so to speak, designed to defeat the explosion of anything that came through the deck).

 

Armouring on these things was enormously complicated, with all sorts of approaches used then modified with experience. Compromises were sometimes made simply because they had to be, such as armour being part of structural integrity. Doing that was more efficient with weight, but it made repairs etc more difficult and hence time (and money) consuming.

 

All fun stuff.

 

One thing's for sure: the 'death of a modern BB by HE spam' is more or less BS and a 'balance' method. 

 

As I said, sometimes it's best not to know much about WWII weapons and doctrines if you're going to play arcade game silliness as you won't find it as jarring.

Edited by Steeltrap

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Member
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There's time I do a duel with another BB with kongo, my shots were perfect, but all fly over or hit the water, only few does little damage. And over 3 salvo the RNG messed me up and I got sunk.

Spread should be a cone, instead of same spread at any range (30m at 1-3km and 250 at max range

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