Jump to content
You need to play a total of 10 battles to post in this section.
T050189

Idea for submarine implementation

24 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Member
621 posts
2,271 battles

This is a completely hypothetical topic.

 

A lot of people have asked about submarines in WoWS, to which the dev answer has almost always been a no. Submarines in WoWS would be quite hard to implement, given the difference in their nature compared to all other ship classes. Due to the ability to evade shellfire and remain unseen, submarines would be very hard to balance in comparison to other ships. However, with a few changes here and there, I believe it may be possible for submarines to have a place in WoWS.

 

Problem 1. Addressing the issue of subsurface capability

The main advantage of submarines is their ability to submerge. Though they are poorly armoured, slow, and considerably less well armed than most other surface ships, this single ability changes everything by allowing submarines to simply avoid all shellfire by diving. This feature may be considered overpowered by many, since this would allow submarines to be practically invincible while still managing to fight against enemy ships.

 

Solution 1.i) Battery life

WW2 submarines usually run on a diesel engine that operates in electric running when submerged. This power comes from a battery that allows submarines to store power generated by the diesel engine while surfaced. Once submerged, the lack of oxygen prevents the diesel engine from working as usual; power from the battery is used instead. In WoWS, this can be used to limit the amount of time submarines can submerge. 

 

When playing a submarine, an additional bar could be added to the GUI showing how much battery power the submarine has. Similarly to real submarines, battery power is generated while surfaced, and used up while submerged. When the submarine runs out of power, there's a few possibilities; damage over time, forced surfacing, perhaps even instant loss of control (and therefore sinking).

 

Solution 1.ii) Counters for submarines

Cannons and shells generally aren't capable of hitting a submarine. Generally, depth charges and similar specially designed ASW weapons are mounted on cruisers and destroyers. Due to higher water resistance and less engine power, submarines would be hard pressed to outturn or outrun such ships, allowing for good captains to catch a submarine unawares and sink it before it does any more damage. Aircraft could potentially also carry ASW weaponry, though whether this would be balanced in WoWS would be a different problem altogether.

 

Problem 2. Spotting

While it shouldn't be too hard to assign a visibility value to a surfaced submarine, the question remains as to how submerged craft should be spotted. First of all is the cruiser's special ability, the hydroacoustic scan, which logically would detect a submarine's noise. However, the scan reloads too slowly to be reliable for subhunting. 

 

Solution 2. i) Visible signs/trails

If submarines were given a propeller trail, or perhaps a visible silhouette/occasional bubbling, it would make submarines easy enough to spot aerially or by an attentive captain. Torpedo trails that appear out of nowhere could also alert captains to the presence of a submarine in the area.

 

Solution 2. ii) Visible on map

When spotted, submarine icons could appear on the map, but not be visible otherwise. Players would have to rely on approximate guesswork to find and destroy submarines; however, giving depth charges a larger damage radius could help to alleviate the issue. 

 

Problem 3. Survivability

It is entirely possible that some troll in a submarine might choose to simply isolate him from the enemy team and hide for the entire game, forcing the enemy into a draw. However, there are a few solutions:

 

Solution 3. i) Submarines cannot capture

Simple enough. 

 

Solution 3. ii) Submarine permanently spotted after X minutes in game

 

Gameplay

How should submarines play? As stealthy and hard to kill hunters, the objective of a submarine commander would be to first and foremost eliminate hard to reach, prime targets like carriers or top tier battleships. However, due to the lack of torpedo turrets, they'd have to be careful not to let enemy ships sneak up to their side (where they cannot retaliate). 

 

In terms of how submarines see underwater, the periscope would obviously be a standard choice. However, periscopes cannot be used in deeper waters. When deep underwater without access to the periscope, submarines wouldn't be able to spot enemy ships and would not receive the benefit of having things like torpedo prediction lines, ship class markers etc.

However, subs close enough to the surface to use periscopes risk being detected by their periscope, as well as being vulnerable to torpedoes and larger caliber blasts.

 

Controls:

Naturally there will be a need for additional controls since submarines operate in a more three-dimensional environment. Simply put buttons for surfacing and diving would be needed, though it would be possible to implement more complex controls.

 

Pros -

- Stealthy

- Hard to kill

- Good striking potential (Torpedo alpha)

- Able to sneak past large enemy formations to hit/spot critical targets

 

Cons -

- Poor HP pool 

- Slow

- Can only submerge for limited amount of time

- Horrid rudder shift time

- Must rise to shallower depths in order to see target information (ship class, username etc.)

 

Just some food for thought.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Super Tester
1,634 posts
4,639 battles

I actually like this. It's really fleshed out and you've thought of most of the possibilities.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
1,007 posts
2,333 battles

please mind

 

1.How about underwater environment(Fishes, Reefs, Bubbles, Kraken?)... How to make it?

2.Probably need more RAM to launch WoWs...

2.Probably minimum requirement to launch Wows will be increased (from 2GB to 4/GB) reminding the underwater environment..

3.Also... please mind my computer :(

 

 - Can only submerge for limited amount of time

- Must rise to shallower depths in order to see target information (ship class, username etc.)

 

I really... doubt..

 

NB: pls explain how CV kill subs... orrr.. subs only can get killed by other subs.. or when the battery goes out.. you're dead?

Edited by Ratdoto

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
724 posts
2,166 battles

Best suggestion for sub so far.

BTW for the gameplay , I think making the submarine adjust depth automatically could work.

[X] button = Dive/Surface button. When pressed,the submarine will dive for a limited amount of time . However, the player will not be able to control the dive depth themselves,it'll be controlled by AI. If the player is at location with shallow water,the dive function will not work. And if the player is getting closer to a shallow area underwater,the submarine will automatically surfaces to avoid collision.

 

And another problem,how should the MM work for subs? 1 on each team? If so,what happens if you run into an enemy submarine?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
621 posts
2,271 battles

please mind

 

1.How about underwater environment(Fishes, Reefs, Bubbles, Kraken?)... How to make it?

2.Probably need more RAM to launch WoWs...

2.Probably minimum requirement to launch Wows will be increased (from 2GB to 4/GB) reminding the underwater environment..

3.Also... please mind my computer :(

 

 

I really... doubt..

 

NB: pls explain how CV kill subs... orrr.. subs only can get killed by other subs.. or when the battery goes out.. you're dead?

1. While an underwater environment would look pretty, it would be by no means necessary to make it super detailed, since the sea gets pretty murky after a few metres without a light source. Since it's not like you can kemp coral bush like in WoT, having an option to disable it would be perfectly fine. Some simple textures would be enough, since it's unlikely you'll ever get close enough to notice the difference.

2. and 3. Again, if you can disable it, it's unlikely to affect your RAM in the slightest. I myself use a Macbook (Which is very much not a gaming computer), so I do mind such things.

 

NB (Whatever that means): Certain bombers such as liason aircraft or even just standard bombers could equip depth charges to attack submarines. This could be implemented as a secondary purpose for divebomber squadrons, making them slightly more useful. Even without CVs, however, destroyers and light cruisers generally came equipped with depth charges for sub hunting. As for battery, a dead battery could force the sub to surface and recharge.

 

Best suggestion for sub so far.

BTW for the gameplay , I think making the submarine adjust depth automatically could work.

[X] button = Dive/Surface button. When pressed,the submarine will dive for a limited amount of time . However, the player will not be able to control the dive depth themselves,it'll be controlled by AI. If the player is at location with shallow water,the dive function will not work. And if the player is getting closer to a shallow area underwater,the submarine will automatically surfaces to avoid collision.

 

And another problem,how should the MM work for subs? 1 on each team? If so,what happens if you run into an enemy submarine?

I'd prefer there to be at least 3 settings for dive. 

1. Surface

2. Shallow

3. Deep

 

Surface is self explanatory.

Shallow would be about periscope depth. 

Deep would be beyond periscope reach.

 

At shallow depth a sub would be able to use its periscope to detect as well as identify enemy ships. However, it would be able to be hit by certain surface armaments (such as torpedoes, perhaps, or even larger caliber guns).

 

At deep depth the sub can only be hit by depth charges and specialised armaments but receives reduced information from GUI (Locations of enemy ships on map disabled, torpedo prediction lines disabled, no nametag/ship class info for spotted ships in vicinity).

 

 

As for MM, that would be an issue. My guess would be that they'd fit in a carrier-like sort of slot, one or two per team with equal numbers, but not always present in a match. 

 

Running into enemy submarine....submarine duels would be freaking awesome but would probably need much more framework. No idea how that'll work atm (Though adjustable torpedo depths could be a thing)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Super Tester
2,725 posts

First time that I ever read the whole & worthy suggestion. +1

 

Regarding spotting on enemy submarine:

- Another possibility aside from using sonar, a trained spotter/watchman can spot the submarine's periscope (need evidence but it's possible when submarine is stalking nearby)

- Submarine spotting a submarine was done via hydrophone when submerged. Later hydrophone improvements, it can be used for both surface & submerged. Hydrophone can be use to detect surface ships' sound. ;)

- if dev gonna consider submarine's silent running procedures, sonar will pick up the submarine at certain distance.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
621 posts
2,271 battles

First time that I ever read the whole & worthy suggestion. +1

 

Regarding spotting on enemy submarine:

- Another possibility aside from using sonar, a trained spotter/watchman can spot the submarine's periscope (need evidence but it's possible when submarine is stalking nearby)

- Submarine spotting a submarine was done via hydrophone when submerged. Later hydrophone improvements, it can be used for both surface & submerged. Hydrophone can be use to detect surface ships' sound. ;)

- if dev gonna consider submarine's silent running procedures, sonar will pick up the submarine at certain distance.

 

I like the hydrophone idea, though its efficiency would probably be affected by how fast the ship and the sub are going (faster ship = more noise = accurate, faster sub = more noise clutter = less accurate etc.)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
105 posts
428 battles

This is pretty good and I could see this in WoWS, but it doesn't quite answer my main problem with subs in WoWS which is that playing a ww1/ww2 submarine is incredibly slow. I just could not see an exciting gameplay ever happening in a game with a strict time limit when submarines move half as slow as battleships and even worse speed when submerged, and where they can only point their torpedoes forward and are horribly vulnerable to everything when detected. Submarines do their best work when the enemy does not know there are submarines in the area, after all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Super Tester
2,725 posts

First time that I ever read the whole & worthy suggestion. +1

 

Regarding spotting on enemy submarine:

- Another possibility aside from using sonar, a trained spotter/watchman can spot the submarine's periscope (need evidence but it's possible when submarine is stalking nearby)

- Submarine spotting a submarine was done via hydrophone when submerged. Later hydrophone improvements, it can be used for both surface & submerged. Hydrophone can be use to detect surface ships' sound. ;)

- if dev gonna consider submarine's silent running procedures, sonar will pick up the submarine at certain distance.

 

 

I like the hydrophone idea, though its efficiency would probably be affected by how fast the ship and the sub are going (faster ship = more noise = accurate, faster sub = more noise clutter = less accurate etc.)

 

 

Just my experience back in Silent Hunter 2, 3, & 5, a WWII U-boat simulator. When I'm hunting for conveys & task forces, I'm heavily dependent on my hydrophone equipment to detect ships' sound.
Edited by Mingfang47

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
406 posts
6,287 battles

First thought:

 

'yay, another invisible ship that can shoot torpedoes - just what we need'

 

Second thought:

 

some of the problems and proposed solutions are reasonably well thought out. Me personally I would restrict a sub to only running at periscope depth or on the surface (that way, the devs don't need to design an underwater view, just piggy back off the existing view) - I think the tier 4 American cruisers gets SONAR (or an equivalent consumable) which would be a good tool against Subs. I think the Periscope would need to be permenantly up when submerged (to give off the feather - so that they can be spotted)

 

On the plus side - they would only be able to fire their torps dead ahead, which should give a bit of balance - although if we are going to get all realistic - most of the WW1 era sub kills were scored using the deck guns - so these should be powerful enough to persuade most sub captains to spend the majority on the surface, only diving for short periods of time (like the duration of the smoke cloud for DDs)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
621 posts
2,271 battles

This is pretty good and I could see this in WoWS, but it doesn't quite answer my main problem with subs in WoWS which is that playing a ww1/ww2 submarine is incredibly slow. I just could not see an exciting gameplay ever happening in a game with a strict time limit when submarines move half as slow as battleships and even worse speed when submerged, and where they can only point their torpedoes forward and are horribly vulnerable to everything when detected. Submarines do their best work when the enemy does not know there are submarines in the area, after all.

Submarines could be spawned a bit forward of their allies. The way I see it is that they can be either offensive or defensive. They're best for ambushing players unawares, as well as sneaking past enemy lines to hit important targets. It, just like carriers, is almost an entirely different game in itself. 

 

The Type VII submarine, one of the most famous, had a surface cruise speed of about 17 knots and underwater speed of 7. It's slow, yes, but while surfaced it can still reach frontlines reliably. Once there they can submerge and lay in ambush.

First thought:

 

'yay, another invisible ship that can shoot torpedoes - just what we need'

 

Second thought:

 

some of the problems and proposed solutions are reasonably well thought out. Me personally I would restrict a sub to only running at periscope depth or on the surface (that way, the devs don't need to design an underwater view, just piggy back off the existing view) - I think the tier 4 American cruisers gets SONAR (or an equivalent consumable) which would be a good tool against Subs. I think the Periscope would need to be permenantly up when submerged (to give off the feather - so that they can be spotted)

 

On the plus side - they would only be able to fire their torps dead ahead, which should give a bit of balance - although if we are going to get all realistic - most of the WW1 era sub kills were scored using the deck guns - so these should be powerful enough to persuade most sub captains to spend the majority on the surface, only diving for short periods of time (like the duration of the smoke cloud for DDs)

1. It's also slow, hard to turn, can only submerge for a limited time and has no torpedo turrets. 

 

2. Periscope only depth would be good enough, I suppose. I personally think that submarines should still be able to raise/lower periscope, but a lowered periscope highly limits the amount of information the sub can get (username, ship class, HP etc). Since submarines are generally slower underwater most sub commanders would probably stay surfaced just so they could keep up with the tide of battle until needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
1,230 posts
2,354 battles

This is a very nice idea, but how about sub's RoF (Torps) and  the deck guns, rember the IJN cruiser sub with 8", it would be hard to balance and also surface and dive speed too

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
45 posts
1,228 battles

Subs would at least give destroyers something realistic to do since this was one of their primary functions.

 

Subs in general would not enter a naval battle like the ones portrayed with the exception of Japanese subs. This was doctrinal and was one of the big weaknesses of the Japanese sub campaign since shooting merchant ships was actually far more important. (the one exception being the japs torping the ship which carried the atomic bombs on the way back despite seeing it on the way there)

 

A couple of points:

Subs could fire from front or rear

Their torps could be aimed via gyros

US torpedoes for the first part of the war were hugely unreliable even to the point of circling back and almost hitting the firing ship.

Aircraft were in fact the great nemesis of subs as they could spot them relatively easily when at periscope death and damage them forcing them to surface.

The normal reaction of a sub when attacked was to dive and evade often laying on the bottom for hours.

Not all subs were faster on the surface, the Type 21 for instance had the following speeds:

15.6 knots (28.9 km/h; 18.0 mph) surfaced
17.2 knots (31.9 km/h; 19.8 mph) submerged
6.1 knots (11.3 km/h; 7.0 mph) (silent running motors)

They could also drop mines.

 

Subs in the game would be totally unrealistic but since little else in the game is realistic have at them :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
621 posts
2,271 battles

This is a very nice idea, but how about sub's RoF (Torps) and  the deck guns, rember the IJN cruiser sub with 8", it would be hard to balance and also surface and dive speed too

 

Cruiser subs like the Surcouf, Type XI and others would be very interesting. However, they still carry a lot less firepower than even some destroyers.

The Type XI had 4 12,7cm guns in 2 active turrets.

Surcouf had 2 20,3 cm guns in 1 active turret.

 

Both of these armaments might be good for some long range harassment but the low number of shells means that it's unlikely to hit, and at closer rangers the sub would be better off with torpedoes and staying submerged. Higher HP and better armament would be the primary advantage of such subs compared to their smaller brethren, but they'd suffer in terms of turn speed and diving speed. I'd be interested in how the Japanese cruiser subs would work, though (B1 Junsen, Sentoku; they carried floatplanes).

 

Subs would at least give destroyers something realistic to do since this was one of their primary functions.

 

Subs in general would not enter a naval battle like the ones portrayed with the exception of Japanese subs. This was doctrinal and was one of the big weaknesses of the Japanese sub campaign since shooting merchant ships was actually far more important. (the one exception being the japs torping the ship which carried the atomic bombs on the way back despite seeing it on the way there)

 

A couple of points:

Subs could fire from front or rear

Their torps could be aimed via gyros

US torpedoes for the first part of the war were hugely unreliable even to the point of circling back and almost hitting the firing ship.

Aircraft were in fact the great nemesis of subs as they could spot them relatively easily when at periscope death and damage them forcing them to surface.

The normal reaction of a sub when attacked was to dive and evade often laying on the bottom for hours.

Not all subs were faster on the surface, the Type 21 for instance had the following speeds:

15.6 knots (28.9 km/h; 18.0 mph) surfaced
17.2 knots (31.9 km/h; 19.8 mph) submerged
6.1 knots (11.3 km/h; 7.0 mph) (silent running motors)

They could also drop mines.

 

Subs in the game would be totally unrealistic but since little else in the game is realistic have at them :) 

Some subs later in the war were designed to be faster underwater as design philosophy changed. Much like today, those subs were designed to spend majority of their time underwater (todays subs are usually also slower surfaced).

Yeah, subs in a fleet battle are unrealistic, but then so is a battleship running aground and managing to reverse in a few seconds :p

Mines would be an interesting secondary armament, but might cause some butthurt if a sub manages to just spam mines around cap point and prevent anyone else from entering.

Front torpedoes would be simple enough, but rear torpedoes are more of an issue. How will they be controlled? It'd be interesting if they were controlled a little bit like aircraft, directed to lock on a specific target on the map. 

The difference in power between American subs and Japanese subs (esp. in lower tiers) is pretty big. Not sure how this could be balanced.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
45 posts
1,228 battles

They would probably just make them invisible like DDs which can shoot you without you seeing them now. The visibility rules in place now are a joke so i'm sure they could cloak a sub which sits low in the water with more justification than a DD which wasn't hard to observe at all. Should throw in some birds of prey for good measure huh :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
2,150 posts
486 battles

I hope the devs stick to their "No".

 

I suspect the only thing that will change that is if they think doing it will somehow bring more $$ when other approaches no longer work. In other words, in the context of this game introducing subs would be the equivalent of "jumping the shark" (if you're not sure what that phrase means, look it up).

 

As an aside, there's a lot of junk in this thread about WWII subs and tech. Some simple examples would be that the Type VII German sub had a surface cruise speed of around 10kt, with ~17kt being its top speed. Submerged speed was a few knots; at top submerged speeds WWII subs generally had about 1 hour of endurance. The 'famous' Type XXI 'electro boat' was in fact an unintended consequence of attempting to design a boat that could operate underwater using an engine that did not require external oxygen (unlike diesels); see the 'Walter turbine' for some interesting stuff. The Type XXI simply replaced the Walter turbine with a massive amount of battery storage, but the hull had been designed for higher underwater speed as the idea was it wouldn't need to surface other than for providing air for the crew periodically.

As for hydrophones on surface ships? Largely useless at any sort of speed at that time due to surface/propulsion noises far exceeding any sort of signal from a submerged boat. Passive listening was typically a "sprint and drift" approach.

 

Anyway, back on topic: No thanks.

Edited by Steeltrap

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
105 posts
428 battles

I hope the devs stick to their "No".

 

I suspect the only thing that will change that is if they think doing it will somehow bring more $$ when other approaches no longer work. In other words, in the context of this game introducing subs would be the equivalent of "jumping the shark" (if you're not sure what that phrase means, look it up).

 

Essentially my opinion, too. I just don't see how they can add much excitement for everyone playing WoWS. They're practically the negative connotations of the IJN DDs but to an absurd extreme. slower. more sneaky. doesn't do much except wait for somebody to get into their ambush zone.

 

All the while everyone else is having fun gunning each other down, dropping bombs, fighting the good fight. It's really too much of a departure from the WoWS meta to incorporate in a way that'll blend well with all the rest.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
621 posts
2,271 battles

This post is more of a discussion about how subs could be balanced if they were implemented. Not so much as an actual suggestion, tbh. Subs don't fit into the game, yes, but it's still interesting to think about what would happen if they did.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
105 posts
428 battles

This post is more of a discussion about how subs could be balanced if they were implemented. Not so much as an actual suggestion, tbh. Subs don't fit into the game, yes, but it's still interesting to think about what would happen if they did.

 

 

As a thought experiment, I'd say the only way to make subs useful is if they made larger maps. As it is, ships are choked into points where they must go through. If we'll make subs spawn further forward as you suggested, then this means they'll be easily hunted down by the other side's DDs because there's not much where they could hide and lurk.

 

Also, a potential problem is that subhunters are inherently vulnerable to other ships and one side's DDs and CAs will inevitably die out in a lot of games (due to attrition, combat, and such) leaving entire sides open to submarines. There may be a lot of games where one side have no ships left that can deal with submarines, while all submarines need to do is lurk near their own cap and deny the other side a win for a dragged out draw.

 

That's an inherent problem that I can't just figure out how to make into a fun experience for everyone involved. If you nerf the submarines into being visible in the surface and limited diving, that would just mean they're quite pointless in the late-game. I think the balance needs to be to figure out a way where every class of ship can have a fair chance of beating down each other class of ship given a last-man-standing situation or otherwise uncomfortable random battle shenanigans.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Super Tester
1,779 posts
323 battles

I would want to have a DD vs SS kinda gameplay rather than having SS participate in Random battles..

 

i.e like Escort mission, where SS' has to sink several merchant ships while DD's protect them and hunt down SS, but of course SS has the option of sinking a DD if they can

 

oh well, everyone has his thing :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
621 posts
2,271 battles

subs = dead title = WG gets no money = no subs in game 

 

pretty simple...

 

This post is more of a discussion about how subs could be balanced if they were implemented. Not so much as an actual suggestion, tbh. Subs don't fit into the game, yes, but it's still interesting to think about what would happen if they did.

 

 

Fully aware of that, this is more of a "what if" :/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
460 posts
8,289 battles

I think wanting submarines in game has been done to death thus far.

 

A few things, firstly submarines almost never were involved in the  surface ship combat like they are now. They just weren't fast enough, so they took pot shots at warships when they could but largely stuck to commerce raiding.

 

I would think being the submarine itself would be incredibly boring. Sure you can hide, but take a typical American sub, the Gato class. goes 10knts submerged and about 20 on the surface. By the time you got anywhere the battle would be over. Also Destroyers being much faster would probably do everything you could before you could get there. I don't think it would be fun for the person driving them.

 

If on the other hand they did manage to go fast enough and did get to battle, they'd spoil the game for everyone else. Imagine they managed to sneak up to about 4kms from you and sunk you easily. At least at that range you can see destroyers coming. If all the destroyers on your team were dead (or there weren't any or many in the battle) you'd have no chance of defeating one.

 

So I'm with Steeltrap, submarines - no thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Member
621 posts
2,271 battles

1. This was just speculation of how submarines might be able to fit in with WoWS.

2. This was from more than 2 weeks ago. Late to the party, aren't you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×