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Lichtbringer

Yamato's penetration needs to be reduced

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Beta Tester
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I was driving my iowa today, and I was turning outwards when an enemy Yamato shooted me. When his shells landed the incident angle was like 20 degrees, and all the shells landed on my rear deck, but whoop, 30k HP just gone. This makes no sense. Yamato's guns can just penetrate and citadel everything except Yamatos and Montanas at every angle. If this is tolerated, why would people angle their armor anymore? Everyone could just drive full broadside like a noob and they won't receive more damage from Yamatos than when they angle their armor, because Yamatos can just penetrate and citadel you either way. I thought skills were encouraged in this game, and I thought angling your armor properly is part of the 'skills'? BB fights are all about angling, and Yamato just breaks the rule. It has to be changed.

 

Just reduce Yamato's penetration to a level just slightly higher than the 406mms so that angling works against them, and increase the AP damage to 16000 to compensate. Or else it would just be Yamatos shooting whatever they see and there is just no counter to an Yamato with good aim, unlike against any other ships with good aim when you can just angle your armor and they wouldn't penetrate.

 

Here's the replay file. I played as crap this game but that is not what matters. What matters is that I got shot at the rear deck by a Yamato and whoops 30k HP is gone.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pjopa30arpkc7q4/20150919_112430_PASB018-Iowa-1944_15_NE_north.wowsreplay?dl=0

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ST Coordinator
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When his shells landed the incident angle was like 20 degrees, and all the shells landed on my rear deck, but whoop, 30k HP just gone.

 

Having something weigh over a ton land on your rear deck (which has almost no armor due to Iowa's All or Nothing design) is going to cause some serious damage .
Edited by Windforce

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Alpha Tester
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Your talking about a 'fast battleship' being holed by a battleships that firers a 1,470kg shell. they don't bounce real well at that weight :amazed:

 

Wouldn't surprise me if the Iowa became tier 10 in a 'fast battleship' line

Edited by BigWaveSurfer

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Alpha Tester
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Having something weigh over a ton land on your rear deck (which has almost no armor due to Iowa's All or Nothing design) is going to cause some serious damage .

 

Stop bringing any sort of reality into what are rather fictional, arbitrary game design mechanics, lol.

 

OP, given how screwy a lot of the balance at low to mid tiers is, thinking it'll be decent at tier 10 is pretty funny.

 

Having said all that, from the data that was available the Yamato is performing significantly better than any other BB. There was a video of Yamato getting citadels on Montana from all sorts of angles while the Montana just bounced off the Yamato (in a training room).

 

p.s. if people want to speak of reality, surely the Iowa should get her 33kt speed, no?

Edited by Steeltrap

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Beta Tester
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The Montana armor is kinda bugged, which needs to be buffed.

Iowa could have her 33 knots top speed, but that means the Izumo should get some buffs too.

If Yamato ever has her penetration reduced, then her turrets should get better rotation speed. (72 sec/180 deg is too slow by any standard)

Edited by Gezeiten_Heimatwelt

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Member
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The Iowa should be 33kt.  Can't see why it wouldn't be.

 

But Yamato was a heavy hitter but we'll never really know as it didn't go toe to toe with another battleship.  I think the main guns were only fired once at one of their own carriers and at a US carrier and some cruisers.

 

If anything you should be only able to play Yamato once a week as it did spend a lot of time in dry dock :teethhappy:

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Super Tester
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A Yamato uses 460 mm guns. An Iowa uses 406 mm guns.

 

I would suspect that even in today's day and age, those guns would still shock and awe.

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Alpha Tester
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A Yamato uses 460 mm guns. An Iowa uses 406 mm guns.

 

I would suspect that even in today's day and age, those guns would still shock and awe.

 

Most of the supposed, available technical data suggests that the two were fairly equal in performance until very close ranges where the flat trajectory shot of the 460mm had absurdly high pen.

 

Of course the game fails to consider substantially all the other aspects of gunnery, most notably radar integrated with analogue computers for fire control etc where I believe the USN had a significant advantage (the Brits and USA certainly did in radar later in the war).

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Beta Tester
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Most of the supposed, available technical data suggests that the two were fairly equal in performance until very close ranges where the flat trajectory shot of the 460mm had absurdly high pen.

 

Of course the game fails to consider substantially all the other aspects of gunnery, most notably radar integrated with analogue computers for fire control etc where I believe the USN had a significant advantage (the Brits and USA certainly did in radar later in the war).

 

Maybe so, but I don't know what stuffs did WG archive teams dug up.

Maybe USN equipments aren't as good as they were said to be? Because u know, most of the info come from Allied side so... :hiding: There's also high probability of intended nerfs in order to make national traits by WG.

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Super Tester
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Most of the supposed, available technical data suggests that the two were fairly equal in performance until very close ranges where the flat trajectory shot of the 460mm had absurdly high pen.

 

Of course the game fails to consider substantially all the other aspects of gunnery, most notably radar integrated with analogue computers for fire control etc where I believe the USN had a significant advantage (the Brits and USA certainly did in radar later in the war).

 

Right. Let's say that you're right and it's not complete propaganda.

 

Your failure to consider the game's overall balance is because...?

Edited by Haku

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Alpha Tester
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Right. Let's say that you're right and it's not complete propaganda.

 

Your failure to consider the game's overall balance is because...?

 

My 'failure' is because I was addressing your comment comparing the two calibres which might reasonably be interpreted as you saying "460mm v 406mm, of course 460mm is better" when available data suggests it's nowhere near that simple.

 

I didn't see you mention balance at all, so if that's a failure it originated with your statement, not mine.

 

If, however, you meant they're both likely to shock and awe, I don't see the relevance to the OP's suggestion that the 460mm is substantially better in game than the 406mm. Indeed, balance would suggest the only real differences should be in effectively accessible DPM. If Yamato's effective DPM is greatly higher due to pen, that would suggest a balance problem with the AP of the 460mm being excessive. Which is the OP's point of contention.

 

So I don't see much in your post of any pertinence to advancing discussion of any of the points in this thread.

 

p.s. as for 'propaganda', I find this site (navweaps.com) a useful point of reference. If you've a better, by all means share it.

Edited by Steeltrap

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Super Tester
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My 'failure' is because I was addressing your comment comparing the two calibres which might reasonably be interpreted as you saying "460mm v 406mm, of course 460mm is better" when available data suggests it's nowhere near that simple.

 

I didn't see you mention balance at all, so if that's a failure it originated with your statement, not mine.

 

If, however, you meant they're both likely to shock and awe, I don't see the relevance to the OP's suggestion that the 460mm is substantially better in game than the 406mm. Indeed, balance would suggest the only real differences should be in effectively accessible DPM. If Yamato's effective DPM is greatly higher due to pen, that would suggest a balance problem with the AP of the 460mm being excessive. Which is the OP's point of contention.

 

So I don't see much in your post of any pertinence to advancing discussion of any of the points in this thread.

 

p.s. as for 'propaganda', I find this site (navweaps.com) a useful point of reference. If you've a better, by all means share it.

 

I didn't mention balance? I just did.

 

I dislike that you call it Wargaming's failure to properly model all other aspects of gunnery. Shell aerodynamics, for such a seemingly simple shape, has such interesting aspects to consider. Couple that in with fire control systems, some aspects of which are probably still classified, and the juggling between keeping the game as a game and a simulation...

 

Of course a bigger calibre doesn't necessarily mean better in any way. There are so many factors to get into that influence the characteristics of the shell. In general, though, most people equate "bigger calibre" with "more damage" or simply "more bang", which fair enough, is correct when reasonably applied. And then the aerodynamic effects...

 

I've got no problems with the OP's point. The shells in-game travel very far, very quickly, and pack a punch. A rebalance should be in order, not necessarily of the ship's armament, but the ship itself. Or an indirect nerf by buffing her direct competitors, as was suggested.

 

Not everything regarding the Yamato's rebalance is discussed here. ALL HAIL VADIM.

 

I've got better sources to get the latest things happening in the military. Just pick up the phone, dial the numbers, and there you go.

Edited by Haku

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Super Tester
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Screencaps from OP's replay (Please excuse my censoring; apparently the current flag of the JSDF is 100% Haram)

 

Before:

 

yLQpkQJ.jpg

After:

 

2SQ1rO1.jpg

How2Geometry:

 

feksK7I.jpg

 

Orange represents the angle of potential shells attack OP

Red: The actual positioning of OP when turning to avoid enemy fire.

 

When his shells landed the incident angle was like 20 degrees

 

amWDLHY.gif

 

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Member
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Your dead right, i want to know how and why you cant purchase the bigger ships in the shop, all they offer is small ships that are fodder fopr the bigger ships,

 

When are they goinfg to offer this in the asia area, you can go the site in the uk and the like and they are on offer.


 

Dico

 

 

Excessive caps. Post edited, user warned.

 

~amade

 

Edited by amade

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Super Tester
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YOUR DEAD RIGHT, I WANT TO KNOW HOW AND WHY YOU CANT PURCHASE THE BIGGER SHIPS IN THE SHOP, ALL THEY OFFER IS SMALL SHIPS THAT ARE FODDER FOPR THE BIGGER SHIPS,

 

WHEN ARE THEY GOINFG TO OFFER THIS IN THE ASIA AREA, YOU CAN GO THE SITE IN THE UK AND THE LIKE AND THEY ARE ON OFFER.

 

 

DICO

 

Just wait for the next time you can.

 

Also, Atlanta's a pretty big ship herself.

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Alpha Tester
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Your dead right, i want to know how and why you cant purchase the bigger ships in the shop, all they offer is small ships that are fodder fopr the bigger ships,

 

When are they goinfg to offer this in the asia area, you can go the site in the uk and the like and they are on offer.


 

Dico

 

 

Excessive caps. Post edited, user warned.

 

~amade

 

Maybe they don't want to flood the game with clueless nubs playing high tier before they've reached those tiers through playing enough battles hopefully to get a clue? Oh, wait, that doesn't really explain the Tirpitz.

 

Nah, they'll sell whatever they think they can get away with.

Edited by Steeltrap

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Beta Tester
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Screencaps from OP's replay (Please excuse my censoring; apparently the current flag of the JSDF is 100% Haram)

 

Before:

 

yLQpkQJ.jpg

After:

 

2SQ1rO1.jpg

How2Geometry:

 

feksK7I.jpg

 

Orange represents the angle of potential shells attack OP

Red: The actual positioning of OP when turning to avoid enemy fire.

 

 

amWDLHY.gif

 

 

You sure failed 3D geometry..... 1st thing, in no world can Yamato be THAT long viewed at 19km distance. Last time I checked, it's about 300 meters long not 2000. 2nd, if you look at the bottom left corner you can see that the direction the cursor is pointing at is at about 30 degree angle with the ship, and the cursor is pointing 5 degrees to the right of the Yamato. So yeah probably not 20 degrees, but somewhere in the vicinity. You don't take an angled projection of a 3D angle and measure it on the 2D image, unless you have no sense of geometry at all.

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Beta Tester
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http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/42807-could-bismarck-classs-ultra-high-velocity-armour-piercing-main-guns-penetrate-yamato-class/

I refer to the first reply of this topic. You can clearly see that in real life Yamato doesn't have much superior penetration than Iowa, and even worse penetration at long range. Caliber is not all that matters, and need I remind you that 16-inch Mark 7 guns use super heavy shells than other 16 inch guns?

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Video Contributor
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http://forum.worldofwarships.com/index.php?/topic/42807-could-bismarck-classs-ultra-high-velocity-armour-piercing-main-guns-penetrate-yamato-class/

I refer to the first reply of this topic. You can clearly see that in real life Yamato doesn't have much superior penetration than Iowa, and even worse penetration at long range. Caliber is not all that matters, and need I remind you that 16-inch Mark 7 guns use super heavy shells than other 16 inch guns?

 

Realities have been brought up continuously to defend US BBs against Yamato 18" shells in WoWs..

Unfortunately it won't matter, as the game mechanic deducts that the bigger the caliber, the more penetration it had..

US BBs in the game cannot withstand 18" shells but do remember that Yamato itself cannot stand ground against its own shell, or even 16" shell when broadsided..

You're best bet on countering Yamato's slice-through-anything salvo is to avoid it altogether..

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