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_Storm

Win rate

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Alpha Tester
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308 battles

I've seen a bit of talk lately about win rate, mostly from people who aren't quite informed about it, many of their comments boil down to what is essentially "win rate doesn't matter" for a various number of reasons. So, I'm going to explain why win rate does matter, to hopefully get rid of some of these misconceptions. And for those unfamiliar with what win rate is, it is the percentage of games you have played that are wins, and is generally regarded as the most important stat by which individual skill is determined.

 

The most common reason people cite when attempting to deny the validity of win rate is "win rate is luck, and entirely dependent on the teams you get", this comment is usually brought along with great helpings of anecdotal evidence pointing out great games that were lost because every other player was too busy attempting to recreate scenes from Titanic or whatever insidious feat resulted in an unavoidable loss, not only is this a fallacy, it also is a contradiction, by saying the better team will win (or whichever team has the least AFK players), you are thereby saying that better players will win more often (which is exactly what win rate suggests), after all, not every team can be entirely composed of players out to lose game, somebody has to be better than the other guy, and therefore win more games.

 

Alternatively, with a more mathematically inclined approach it is also worth pointing out that yes, over a small sample size you can play like the best player in existence, yet still lose 9 of the 10 games you played, however the opposite is also true and you can AFK your way through to an absurdly long winning streak, games like this with fairly large, randomly selected teams can and do result in mathematically improbable results over low sample sizes, however, over a large enough sample size, these incidents, being as improbable as they are, will not affect your win rate any more than somebody else's, so while the results of 5 games is not really indicative of anything, you can be certain that the results of 500 will paint a pretty clear picture as to how good someone is at tipping the battle in their favour.

 

This is a competitive, PvP game, you may not be interested in stats, but I can assure you that they are important regardless, as they represent how much you contribute to your team's chance at winning, and hence will always continue to be brought up, whether you play4funz, or are more interested in stroking your e-peen, in short, your win rate is always important.

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Beta Tester
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I would say WR is less relevant in WoWs than in WoT, but it is still important.

 

After all, if you know what you are doing you won't be losing 5 games in a row all the time.

It do happens, but you will probably win 5 games in a row before that either. Thats my experience.

Edited by Alvin1020

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Alpha Tester
512 posts
308 battles

I would say WR is less relevant in WoWs than in WoT, but it is still important.

 

No, the difference is less pronounced due to the much higher prevalence of draws, however, that does not mean it is less important or accurate, instead, due to the narrower scope what difference there is is of greater significance.

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Beta Tester
317 posts
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It is harder to carry in ships as in tanks, that is IMHO.... Map is much larger, and ship is relatively much slower, unless you play a CV and you are absolutely competent in it..... 

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Beta Tester
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It is harder to carry in ships as in tanks, that is IMHO.... Map is much larger, and ship is relatively much slower, unless you play a CV and you are absolutely competent in it..... 

 

Agreed.

 

Hence why CV is still incredibly strong.

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Super Tester
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It is harder to carry in ships as in tanks, that is IMHO.... Map is much larger, and ship is relatively much slower, unless you play a BB, CA, CL, DD or CV and you are halfway good in it..... 

 

fixed

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Beta Tester
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fixed

But but but, aircraft is much more faster than surface ships isn't it? And so can reach and respond to a threat faster......

Edited by Artisto81

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Beta Tester
506 posts
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I'm sitting here trying to argue about something or anything.

 

Then i realized what's the point?

 

To me WR doesn't matter, to some of you guys WR does matter.

 

I hope when i see you guys on the battlefield, you put your money where your mouth is. Coz that's what counts to you snobs, right?

Edited by RG_Kid

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Super Tester
1,634 posts
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I talked about this on the World of Tanks forum. Here is the link.

 

I will repost something I wrote on that topic weeks ago:

 

I can't think of any who are good individually, but awful in team play. This is not Call of Duty. This game, at its base, is a team game (no matter how many times, or how hard, the naysayers deny it). To do well in this game, you have to be a team player (within reason, of course). Players who are lousy in team play, are oftentimes lousy in individual play too.

 

I'm not denying the usefulness of performance metrics. They are a good filter for players whom you do want in your clan. It is, of course, not infallible (some of my best platoon mates, the ones with which I have the most synergy with, are not unicums, and yet with them I feel like I can go into any battle and do anything and I'd still win), but when you take a fine-toothed comb to the salient details, I realised a while back that damage is not inherently what wins games, but movement and decisiveness. The ability to see the path to victory and take it, even if it means sneak-capping (when you do little to no damage), for instance, is what I look for in any potential recruit (in DPS now).

 

Yes, win rate can be padded, either by platoons or known stat-padding tanks, but with the advent of statistics in World of Tanks, anyone can see what tanks you played, and reassess your stats without the influence of those stat-padding tanks (and thus give you a truer interpretation of your stats). As for platoons, after several thousand battles, there must be a reason why people like to platoon with you continuously, isn't there? Humourous rages at people/tanks/clans/RNG moments can only get you soooooo far.

 

Any clot can do damage. But winning...that's another matter. Sometimes the two are inseparable (as is the case most of the time in heavy tanks), but there are more ways to victory than people seem to realise.

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Beta Tester
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This is a competitive, PvP game, you may not be interested in stats, but I can assure you that they are important regardless, as they represent how much you contribute to your team's chance at winning, and hence will always continue to be brought up, whether you play4funz, or are more interested in stroking your e-peen, in short, your win rate is always important.

 

Shrug. Not sure what the big deal is. At the end of the day we are all playing a game where you play with random people who may or may not be able to communicate and who may or may not have the same level of skill. I will maintain if you are a solo player and you have a certain ship type there is absolutely nothing you can do if the rest of your team falls over within a short space of time. Ship tier also factors in as well. Not all of the ship types are balanced correctly. Plus you have to factor in RNG which will also skew the results.

 

The best anyone can hope for is to do enough damage to cover ship expenses and make some money to move further up the ship tree. Some of my most enjoyable matches were where both sides have played well even if we did not win. Chasing stats is a path to madness and will only make you unhappy and frustrated in the long term. ;)

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Super Tester
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He didn't deny those factors. What he did deny was that RNG would continuously affect you over a large sample.

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Beta Tester
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What is the average WR for WoWS in SEA server anyway?  In WoTBlitz it's about 48%. Perhaps it is lower in WoWS because of slightly less influence of individual performance on battle results. But we will never know until they release the API data for WoWS.... Anyway, it's still too early to judge someone from their WR unless they already have large number of battles under their belts (500, 1000, 2000? Tell me your opinion)

Edited by Artisto81

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Beta Tester
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But but but, aircraft is much more faster than surface ships isn't it? And so can reach and respond to a threat faster......

 

IJN CV got nerfed pretty hard with regards to their damage potential, about 1/4. They do gain more Fighters, but really those don't do jack cr*p against surface ships.

 

More Bombers = you kill enemies faster.

More Fighters = your teammates take longer to die.

Exchanging Bombers for Fighters = lengthening games = more draws.

 

Since they lost so much damage potential, their impact on the battle isn't nearly as great as before. You can still carry in IJN CV, but I don't think it's as easy as it sounds right now.

 

EDIT: Well, Taiho and Hakuryu are exceptions. They are just as good if not more OP than before cuz they didn't lose any TB but get more Fighters. DB are cr*p anyway.

Edited by Gezeiten_Heimatwelt

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Beta Tester
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Since they lost so much damage potential, their impact on the battle isn't nearly as great as before. 

 

The thing is, CV get to "Choose" what to engage.

 

I am not saying a BB/DD/CA/CL can't do it, but it takes them like 2 or 3 times more "Time" to get there - where CV would be like less than a minute given it's very very far away.

 

I have encounter so much frustrating games like this - Even in a DD, It take literally a whole 2 or 3 minutes to get back from one side of the map - Just to defend the base.

And after that you gotta pray for your torpedo arrive in time and hit. CV? Nah, just change course and defend. Take at most a minute.

Edited by Alvin1020

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Beta Tester
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The thing is, CV get to "Choose" what to engage.

 

I am not saying a BB/DD/CA/CL can't do it, but it takes them like 2 or 3 times more "Time" to get there - where CV would be like less than a minute given it's very very far away.

 

Meanwhile once BB/CA/DD get to their target zone, they can stay there and fight for as long as they want but aircrafts have to return once they dropped their payload.

 

If it's a weak enemy who'll die in 1 strike, then yes CV is much quicker. However, if it's a fleet then I'd say being in a surface ship would deal damage faster providing that you can survive the entire engagement. Not to mention CV don't like fighting bunched up enemies because of their stacked AA defense and tons of Catapult Fighters which will mess up your attempt to air torp or dive bomb the target.

 

It depends on the target and situation they are in really. But all in all IJN CV up to tier 8 will take more effort to carry teams. Right now I'd rather be in a BB or CA if I want to carry the game. Now I play CV and DD for gameplay variety mostly, atleast CV is still rewarding.

 

 

Back onto the topic: WR ofcourse still matters, but there are various factors that affects the value.

- Player skill.

- Player's ship performance.

- Match maker.

- RNG.

- Other stuffs...

 

All elements above are included in both WoT and WoWS. However, because the nature of Ground vs Naval combat, player skill have much smaller impact in WoWS than WoT. Thus, you may be much better than a certain player, but your WR might not be that much higher than his. However, with similar sample sizes (avg ship tier and type played), the player who has better knowledge at handling the ship will still have better WR, just that the difference is much smaller than you'd expect, esp in comparison with WoT.

 

Personally I don't care much about WR, it doesn't necessarily make me a better person than random stranger on the internet. However, I'd still like it if I have high WR because nobody want to lose or draw.

 

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Super Tester
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What is the average WR for WoWS in SEA server anyway?  In WoTBlitz it's about 48%. Perhaps it is lower in WoWS because of slightly less influence of individual performance on battle results. But we will never know until they release the API data for WoWS.... Anyway, it's still too early to judge someone from their WR unless they already have large number of battles under their belts (500, 1000, 2000? Tell me your opinion)

 

afaik the server margin (acceptable, I think) is at 48-50% unless the skilled players will automatically assume everyone below them are confirmed subpar players in their eyes that should not be given a chance to propagate because in the end, a bad crop will sprout bad fruits of labor or somewhere along that line (I actually heard this from a skilled tonker rolling in the Leopard 1 in a net cafe I frequented back when WoT C3 was in full effect... before the mass allegations of that thing which destroyed the very core of verisimilitude and other questionable acts which the APAC team literally 'swept under the rug').

 

as for the worth of a player in the crunch he/she/it has done, well... that's another thing entirely since we might probably see both sides rolling hard with their beliefs, with one end firmly grasping 'WR don't make the player' and the other firmly stands that its the measuring ruler for how gritty you are with both ends likely insulting each other. I actually saw that argument in person... and it was not a happy campfest.

 

... and here I am still trying to win seven flippin battles in order to jump over the hurdle that I made after a massive tilt-fest.

Edited by EvyL

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Member
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So at what number of battles should a new player ie non-alpha/closed beta tester be looked at and judged based on w/r?

 

Given that a single player's influence is less than in WoT, even without looking at ship classes played, where do we begin to pronounce judgement and issue labels such as terribad, uniseaman, kermit, baddie etc?

 

I think that in WoT I stated that at around 5k battles a player had a large enough sample size that 'the die was cast' and without a change in playstyle they were at their level.

 

Given the disproportionate effect of platooning/Divisions, should a uniseaman who has a large number of divisioned games really NOT feel like an idiot for bashing solo players with low win rates?

 

Anyway, I am a w/r convert, essentially the factors involved are similar to WoT, but I think that the same factors, due to the difference in gameplay in boats, are less intense and a player should be looked at more in depth before any uberuniseaman judgement is pronounced.

 

 

Edited by FG_IMONABOAT

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Member
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I don't care how a player WR is if you are telling me you are a player who is a 60%-80%+ just by playing 100-300 game do you think you deserve to get called pro for that???? Or should be a player with 40%+WR with 500-1000+battles called pro. I don't mean to disrespect but most of the players who are 60%WR don't even have a equivalent amounts of damage caused and ships sunked. More worst some of you in here buy Premium ships also fail at using... So i don't think WR is important here if not let said everyone could show off yes but in the end 100%=2 battles only shames on that player.

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Member
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Winrate winrate, where art thou? Personally, while I agree with Storm's sentiment that winrate is an important stat, and that I do take it seriously.... It is not an important criteria for me when I am divisioning with someone.

 

I look more at average damage and the types of ships played. If you are mainly a BB player with average damage of 20k, then I will assume that you are mainly sniping (and missing) most of your shots). That's the general gist of it, though in game, I just spam div invites to whoever is online in my friends list or asking around in the off topic discussion channel. I can't see your stat in game, and I don't make it a habit to check someone's stat off game before divisioning.

 

Still like I said in another thread, there are anomalies in game. Players with bad winrate, but are actually good players. It is more prevalent in WoWs compared to WoT honestly.

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Alpha Tester
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The average damage is increasing when you go to higher tier ship so using this stat to judge how well a player can be is bad idea.

Average experience is the best type of stat to judge a player because this number is not affected much by other elements. But if I want high average experience, I only need to play DD, just 1 higher tier ship kill in a battle can easily grant you more than 1k5 exp.

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Member
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Average XP can be skewed by premium account, no? I have been playing with premium account for the 1st 2 months i started WOWs. I was near 2k XP....

 

However, I have been playing without premium for about 2-3 weeks already and my average XP has dropped to around 1880.

 

So no, I don't think average XP is a good indicator as the margin can be skewed exponentially depending on whether are you playing with premium or not.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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