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yobbo1972

Des Moines

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Beta Tester
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ok since ive had this ship I have noticed it is no were near as good as it use to be when it first come out back in CBT days,   back then players were saying it was the best ship in the game and from the utube vids I have watched and having my ass kicked by the des Moines back in CBT as well I would agree with these players. but since OBT and after the new updates this ship is but a shell of it former self and the sever stats also say this ship is very different from when it first put into the game

now since then and since OBT started I have noticed this ship no longer has the same AA dominance it once had, as well as with all American cruiser these days it has a higher shell arc and slower shell velocity, which makes it a lot easier to dodge these shells, but if u compare this to the Zao and the sever stats for the Zao then the Zao is a much better ship as it does tend to hit more with its shells as they have a lower arc and a higher shell velocity which makes it hard to miss.


 

also when u get hit in the des moines by any tier ship even lower tier cruisers they do seem to do max amount of damage to the ship and there for u tend to die more often as well


 


 

I do hope WG can also see this in the stats and hopefully adjust the ship.

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Beta Tester
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I can just guess that just how WG try to promote it ...They even make the video show how OP des moines is ... and from there I can guess that they want ppls to play this ship more and the nerf it later ....

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Beta Tester
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The day when yobbo starts to blame himself instead of the ship is when oh wait nope

 

Baddies will stay bad.

 

this. OP have you noticed how many times you say things like "seems" and "feel" regarding your ships? did it not occur to you for even a second that it might be a PBKAC issue?
Edited by ZEONWILLRISEAGAIN

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Alpha Tester
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Best fire power (or was it cleveland?) but decent Penetrations, that is Des Moines

I would choose this ship if against a battleship due to her RoF and manuveurability

But will choose Zao for Cruiser fight (and i still can use my torp for emergency)

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Beta Tester
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hey im not here to socialise.

im here to test out this game, that's what being a tester is about or have u all forgotten that???

now if WG brings out a patch and change something within the game and then when I play my ships and I notice that something is different  with the ships I play compared to past updates then I will come on to the forums and say what I feel about those changes.

that's what the forums are for, to let WG know that the changes they have made might not be a good change for the game.

now if you guys can not handle a player coming onto the forums and talking about the changes he feels is not good for the game or a change has made a ship feel unbalance or made the ship a lot harder to play, or notice something that wasn't happen as often as before, then please feel free not to reply to the post made by OP ok.

and if u don't like that then please feel free not to comment at all.


 

but if u feel u need to go and troll OP cuz u not nothing better to do then go back and hide under your bridge where all trolls belong.

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Alpha Tester
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Oddly enough, I just replied in another thread of yours. Parts of that reply are just as valid here, so I'll repeat them. The topic was about how often the Warspite catches on fire, but the same principles apply:

 

Just because you say "I have a feeling" doesn't mean anything other than you have a feeling. It proves nothing.

 

Pointing that out is not trolling, it's encouraging you to gain a basis on which to make claims that is more rigorous than "I pulled this out of my xxxx".

 

I used to gather a LOT of numbers about MM before posting on it in WoT, something I did for nearly 4 YEARS. I could acknowledge the issues with the data, but at the same time argue a case based on the facts as they were for my own playing experience.

An example was that my Panther II experience 4 battles as bottom tier (so a tier 10 fight) for every battle it had as top tier (tier 8). Meanwhile I had other tier 8s that had different distributions. The point? If WG does nothing to control distribution of battles for EACH vehicle, rather than saying "tier 8s as a mob have the following distribution" (which is exactly what Tan does post, incidentally), then the problem of tanks getting appallingly bad distributions of battles across their playing lives will never be addressed.

 

For every battle you have in the Warspite, or another tier 6 BB as comparison, have a piece of paper nearby. Every time you get set on fire, put a tick on the paper. At the end of the battle, note the time you died (as in the duration of the battle) and how often you were set on fire. Start putting that into an excel sheet.

 

In 30 battles for each, you'll start to see how comparable they are. You might also want to record what tier battle it is, as the relative tier of opponents might also affect how often they set you on fire (bigger/better weapons). Or if you get set on fire more often when top tier, that too would be interesting.

 

Regardless, if you want ever to be taken seriously, this is the sort of thing that is required. It's a PITA, and WG could present the info themselves easily enough, but it's the only way you'll ever be able to claim anything other than "I think this today".

 

Feel free to write "I think this is bad and was better before" but nobody's going to take it seriously. And if you want to have real discussions, a far better way is to write "I have an impression my xyz ship isn't as good; who else has one and plays it, and what do THEY think?". At least then you'll get some idea if people entirely agree, partly agree, or pretty much totally disagree.

 

Edited by Steeltrap

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Member
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I swear the Des Moines had 40mm Bofors... or is it my imagination? Also: It's (and the Zaos) AA doesn't seem very good (from the stats no., not going by them individually), and does it have something to do with the recent AA changes to all ships (i.e. Some buffed, some nerfed and some left alone), or again: is it my imagination?

Please provide useful thoughts because I'm only asking, not complaining :).

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Super Tester
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[something about the need for negative rep]

 

Go back and play the Cleveland, seeing as they both play exactly the same. If you're still shit then maybe you should switch to the IJN CA line. Considering how the game is close to its Official release, I think it's safe to say WG don't care about you testing any more.

 

Of course, this would be assuming you were genuine about testing the game but of course you've posted it in general chat where no dev is really ever likely going to look at it. 

 

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Just wondering....What do you call it when, for example I was teamed with you once about a week ago, and you went on to rant and abuse some poor guy and then the team in general (we actually won) in team chat? Is that to test the chat system, or the report system? Or something else entirely?:P

 

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Well- I'm not going to get into the attitude in this thread.

I would setup a user-mode win32 debugger to the client to get actual numbers- but since they havent released a debug version of the binaries it seems pointless.

Short of that- every other "fact" about this game is pure supposition and guess work.

If I can walk the stack in a debugger- then I can actually tell you factually what is happening.

 

In my opinion- Yobbo is right.

Des Moines' AAA is dreadful- subjectively, the baltimore is way more effective at taking down aircraft than the Des Moines. Last night in particular- while protecting a hakyuru (CV), 4-5 flights of planes attacked. I have rank 4 mod for increased AA range and effectiveness. I popped my heightened AA cooldown. Despite being right next to the CV I shot down only 7 planes. On a baltimore I'd be well into the teens or more for that amount. The CV got hit by a bunch of torpedos and was on less than half health. I tried to do the right thing by my CV, but the reality is- the Des Moines isn't a good AAA platform. It looks like it should be both visually and on paper- but it isn't and its dissappointing when you learn this.

 

The AP on Des Moines basically penetrates cruisers, cv's and DD's- but forget about BB's- unless you're shooting at a really low tier BB, you will usually bounce your rounds (meaning contributed damage to the new total counter is 0).

 

HE fires quickly, but doesn't ignite as often like it used to.

In short- a Cleveland can be made to shoot at 17+ km more effectively than the Des Moines. The effective operating distance of the Des Moines is 10-14km tops due to high shell arc making anything more than that easily dodged by anything near tier X as at that level every ship is pretty fast. If you can catch a BB sitting still- you're set- but they seldom stay there long enough for you to do any meaningful damage.

If you engage at 10-14km as mentioned above you'll be prioritized and taken down pretty damned fast. Turning and running wont save you as you're still a bloody big target and you're fragile.


I love cruisers, but the Des Moines could be a lot better. Doesn't hit hard enough or accurately enough to operate at a reasonable distance imho.

It has no mastery. Its pretty bad at everything it does. High ROF on its own is meaningless as fights at tier X end at 10km, they don't start there and to survive at 10km you need armour that the Des Moines just doesn't have.

Edited by Osi

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The AP on Des Moines basically penetrates cruisers, cv's and DD's- but forget about BB's- unless you're shooting at a really low tier BB, you will usually bounce your rounds (meaning contributed damage to the new total counter is 0).

 

LOL

I was under the impression that 100% of CAs weren't supposed to penetrate BBs with AP? If they did wouldn't that kinds make BBs redundant apart from their range?

[edit - fixed grammar - apologies]

Edited by S4pp3R

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Super Tester
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Well- I'm not going to get into the attitude in this thread.

I would setup a user-mode win32 debugger to the client to get actual numbers- but since they havent released a debug version of the binaries it seems pointless.

Short of that- every other "fact" about this game is pure supposition and guess work.

If I can walk the stack in a debugger- then I can actually tell you factually what is happening.

 

In my opinion- Yobbo is right.

Des Moines' AAA is dreadful- subjectively, the baltimore is way more effective at taking down aircraft than the Des Moines. Last night in particular- while protecting a hakyuru (CV), 4-5 flights of planes attacked. I have rank 4 mod for increased AA range and effectiveness. I popped my heightened AA cooldown. Despite being right next to the CV I shot down only 7 planes. On a baltimore I'd be well into the teens or more for that amount. The CV got hit by a bunch of torpedos and was on less than half health. I tried to do the right thing by my CV, but the reality is- the Des Moines isn't a good AAA platform. It looks like it should be both visually and on paper- but it isn't and its dissappointing when you learn this.

 

The AP on Des Moines basically penetrates cruisers, cv's and DD's- but forget about BB's- unless you're shooting at a really low tier BB, you will usually bounce your rounds (meaning contributed damage to the new total counter is 0).

 

HE fires quickly, but doesn't ignite as often like it used to.

In short- a Cleveland can be made to shoot at 17+ km more effectively than the Des Moines. The effective operating distance of the Des Moines is 10-14km tops due to high shell arc making anything more than that easily dodged by anything near tier X as at that level every ship is pretty fast. If you can catch a BB sitting still- you're set- but they seldom stay there long enough for you to do any meaningful damage.

If you engage at 10-14km as mentioned above you'll be prioritized and taken down pretty damned fast. Turning and running wont save you as you're still a bloody big target and you're fragile.

 

I love cruisers, but the Des Moines could be a lot better. Doesn't hit hard enough or accurately enough to operate at a reasonable distance imho.

It has no mastery. Its pretty bad at everything it does. High ROF on its own is meaningless as fights at tier X end at 10km, they don't start there and to survive at 10km you need armour that the Des Moines just doesn't have.

 

Since we're being serious here:

 

Firstly, you're right, the game rates it as having a better AA complement than its predecessor. However, scrutinising it, it's a give-and-take of sorts. In going up to the Des Moines-class from the Baltimore-class, you trade away pure AA average DPS in exchange for range. Using only raw values, for the Baltimore, you can only put out 36 average DPS 5 kilometres away, for a combined total of 547 average DPS if you a squadron flies into the third line of defence (including Defensive Fire). By comparison, the Des Moines only puts out 372 DPS in the same situation.

 

However, there is a caveat for the AA power of the Baltimore: the range. The Des Moines can cover air zones farther than the Baltimore, and with the Defensive Fire perk this leads to you projecting more DPS farther away. More if you ask your AA suite to focus fire on one squadron. Furthermore, how often do you see a CV player dare to get close to any US cruiser? This would make the Baltimore extremely useful for point defences for carriers and battleships (and generally indifferent to anything else, so long as the enemy squadrons do not cross the magic 3.5 km mark), and the Des Moines is better suited to being the first row of the team's AA defence.

 

This observation also leads to an ironic conclusion: if you are a CV player and are faced with either a Baltimore, or a Des Moines...go for the Des Moines. Right now, it's the hype that is protecting the Des Moines more than the actual AA mechanics.

 

472.gif

 

For the second point, I'll let Jeremy Clarkson give the foreword (Here is the link since the start : https://youtu.be/_-0nXOS4uDY?t=1153)

Also ignore that the shell that Jeremy Clarkson is holding is a 152 mm shell. It is more than adequate for our purposes.

 

From long ranges, AP works on battleships purely because of plunging fire and hitting the unprotected parts of the deck (you'll get a penetrating non-citadel hit). At medium ranges, however, you're better off using HE and hitting the much bigger superstructure until you get to close ranges, where the penetration is higher and you can start using AP once again ONLY when he shows his broadside to you.

 

Thirdly, do you hit things consistently with your Cleveland at maximum range with Advanced Firing Training? I sure as heck can't, not if the enemy is decent. The shell travel time is just too high. I'd even consider the perk unnecessary if it weren't for the enhanced AA range and the lack of viability of the other perks (with the correct usage of consumables and upgrades).

 

What you do get back in return, however, are the better guns and fire control system. You get 10 rounds a minute and you can project this further. What else do you want? If you can't penetrate, just fire HE at people.

Edited by Haku

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Super Tester
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Actually, writing that post earlier does raise an important point: that going up the tiers does not necessarily mean a better ship in all aspects. This isn't World of Tanks. For Japanese cruisers, for instance, they use the same guns that the Furutaka uses, all the way up to Tier 9. It also generally goes up in AA defence until it reaches the Myoukou, and then the Mogami gets a slightly worse AA complement before it improves once again until the Senjou, where you get dual-purpose turrets at a slightly lower range.

 

Each ship is unique. A Tier 5 can take on a Tier 7-8 and win if played well.

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Beta Tester
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Actually, writing that post earlier does raise an important point: that going up the tiers does not necessarily mean a better ship in all aspects. This isn't World of Tanks. For Japanese cruisers, for instance, they use the same guns that the Furutaka uses, all the way up to Tier 9. It also generally goes up in AA defence until it reaches the Myoukou, and then the Mogami gets a slightly worse AA complement before it improves once again until the Senjou, where you get dual-purpose turrets at a slightly lower range.

 

Each ship is unique. A Tier 5 can take on a Tier 7-8 and win if played well.

There is no longer a Senjou. It was renamed Zao, sir.

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Super Tester
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Yes, I am aware that it is called "Zaou" (蔵王) but as far as we're concerned, the ship was called "Senjou" (戦場) in Alpha, and I'm not particularly inclined to change it (even if it didn't make sense considering that "Senjou" means "battlefield" when the Japanese were more inclined to name their heavy cruisers and battleships after rivers and mountains).

 

I've even read articles stating that the ship class should actually be called "IJN Unzen" (雲仙).

 

Think of it as an exclusive club to distinguish those who joined during the Alpha stages and those who joined partway between the Closed Beta phase.

Edited by Haku

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Beta Tester
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Regret getting the DM. Its shell trajectory sucks like lobbing mortar and even with module upgrades, its AA still ineffective.

Also the high service cost made me play it sparingly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Beta Tester
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Regret getting the DM. Its shell trajectory sucks like lobbing mortar and even with module upgrades, its AA still ineffective.

Also the high service cost made me play it sparingly.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

yeah same here, its not as good as it was in CBT and the video they released when des Moines first come out says its the best AA ship in the game, but sadly like everything WG do they over nerf it etc

WG really don't gave a dam about their player base at all, they have one thing on their minds and that's "how much money can we get out of these players" and we don't care if it a good game or a balance game or a fair game we just want your money.

im glad I don't waste money on this game.

yes ive paid for premium account as u need one to be able to reach tier 8 and above and u got no hope of getting to tier 10 if u don't have one.

yes ive paid for premium ships but only the lower tier ones that don't cost as much, as and I wont waste money on a ship costing over $50-60+

yes I can afford it as I work in the mines and earn good money, and rather spend money on something that's going to benefit me and the higher tier ships don't benefit me in this game (lower tiers earn you just as much silver).

 

 

but as long as players keep throwing money at the game thinking it will benefit them then, WG wont give a dam and keeping dishing up a 2nd rate game.

 

 

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[SGC]
Super Tester
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Hey yobbo.

Stop being hypocritical. Hurr durr dont spend money on the game and what do you do? Throw money to the devs as well.

So yes. You are supporting their decisions with your wallet. Whine all you want but they arent going to change for you.

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