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Serene_Potato

Battleships and Fire Mechanics

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Beta Tester
99 posts
345 battles

BBs just get spammed by HE to the point where their armor becomes largely irrelevant. They get set on fire, etc. There are three fixes I thought of, maybe they might work.

One of them is to decrease the Battleship fire extinguishing time to 20 seconds.

Another is to make it impossible to set battleship on fire. If the previous option does not work, I do not know what else will. HE does damage anyways, regardless of whether you pen or not. Battleships are perpetually set on fire by HE shells, even worse, they cannot dodge these HE shells much. They can even get set on fire by destroyer 12.7cm guns.

Another is that battleships have a much lower chance to get set on fire, but while they are on fire, they lose no health. However, they have an increase in reload time or something.

Let's build on this, and see where it goes. Getting a bit tired of BB players whining about it, I see nothing wrong with BBs, just objectively giving some suggestions.

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Beta Tester
2,040 posts
1,326 battles

Either of those would make BB OP, so nope.

Fire is the only effective way to take out a Battleship for a Cruiser player, especially USN ones.

 

We could lower the fire or HE effectiveness, but what you suggested is overdoing it.

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Member
1,230 posts
2,367 battles

BBs just get spammed by HE to the point where their armor becomes largely irrelevant. They get set on fire, etc. There are three fixes I thought of, maybe they might work.

One of them is to decrease the Battleship fire extinguishing time to 20 seconds.

Another is to make it impossible to set battleship on fire. If the previous option does not work, I do not know what else will. HE does damage anyways, regardless of whether you pen or not. Battleships are perpetually set on fire by HE shells, even worse, they cannot dodge these HE shells much. They can even get set on fire by destroyer 12.7cm guns.

Another is that battleships have a much lower chance to get set on fire, but while they are on fire, they lose no health. However, they have an increase in reload time or something.

Let's build on this, and see where it goes. Getting a bit tired of BB players whining about it, I see nothing wrong with BBs, just objectively giving some suggestions.

 

lol, u can't set BBs on fire?

Then u can't get fireproof, and on fire's one of the few ways to kill bbs, if u disable that, LOL BBS ARE OP

Don't do it, Cheatland will cry

And it's the BB captain's job to not manuver into HE spamming area :hiding:

Better luck next time;)

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Beta Tester
99 posts
345 battles

Then I suppose it's inexperienced players crying about their favorite ship not being invulnerable then.

Just a lot of complainers sort of pissing me off, decided to put a post up and see if opinion was the same on the forums.

"BB underpowered, etc."

Everyone following Jingles' lead.

I personally have no issues with BBs at all, except that they give me the worst teams possible. :P

Allows me to get daily double, then loses every game afterwards.

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Moderator
4,163 posts
1,874 battles

I'd say the issue is that a lot of players see the fire icon and the yellow border around their screen, and they freak out and hit the damage control button. Then the next salvo of shells/divebombers/follow-up torpedoes hit and then they sit and slowly burn/flood to death because the damage control was wasted on a single fire.

 

Hitting damage control to extinguish a fire immediately is fine on cruisers, destroyers and aircraft carriers, sure. But battleships already have two big advantages with regards to dealing with fires compared to other classes.

 

1. They have a lot more combat capability than the other classes. That's a lot more HP that fires need to burn through to cause significant percentages of damage.

2. They have the Repair Work skill, which is capable of regenerating all damage caused by fires.

 

Proper use of both of these - by either disengaging and evading incoming salvoes (long range)/killing source of shells (medium to close range - well aimed citadel penetrations), and the act of holding off on hitting Damage Control (and letting fires burn out naturally and regenerating the damage) goes a LONG way into ensuring battleships don't get killed by fires.

 

Frankly, I've been looking at my damaged numbers, and the majority of damage still comes from HE shell direct damage or AP penetrations, rather than being burned to death. If anyone wants to look at battleship vulnerability, they should be looking at direct HE shell damage, not fire damage.

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Alpha Tester
6,604 posts
2,477 battles

My suggestion that I ever shows somewhere before:
Decrease the DPS as the fire duration goes (max DPS at the beginning of fire, become smaller as the time goes until it's gone)
Or
Make the chance of fire very small BUT keep increasing if hit at the same spot
Or
Make the chance of fire based on shells size and armor, (and probably the Real life quality of the shells themself based on country)
Therefore, the Damage, duration, chance of BB sized HE Shells should be the most deadly against other ship other than Another more armoured BB

 

BUT FIRST I WANT MY DD BUFF

Edited by Harpoon01

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Super Tester
1,677 posts

that aside though I thought you put the Q in a BB by blasting its deck or superstructure with HE

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Beta Tester
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I'd say the issue is that a lot of players see the fire icon and the yellow border around their screen, and they freak out and hit the damage control button. Then the next salvo of shells/divebombers/follow-up torpedoes hit and then they sit and slowly burn/flood to death because the damage control was wasted on a single fire.

 

Hitting damage control to extinguish a fire immediately is fine on cruisers, destroyers and aircraft carriers, sure. But battleships already have two big advantages with regards to dealing with fires compared to other classes.

 

1. They have a lot more combat capability than the other classes. That's a lot more HP that fires need to burn through to cause significant percentages of damage.

2. They have the Repair Work skill, which is capable of regenerating all damage caused by fires.

 

Proper use of both of these - by either disengaging and evading incoming salvoes (long range)/killing source of shells (medium to close range - well aimed citadel penetrations), and the act of holding off on hitting Damage Control (and letting fires burn out naturally and regenerating the damage) goes a LONG way into ensuring battleships don't get killed by fires.

 

Frankly, I've been looking at my damaged numbers, and the majority of damage still comes from HE shell direct damage or AP penetrations, rather than being burned to death. If anyone wants to look at battleship vulnerability, they should be looking at direct HE shell damage, not fire damage.

 

2 is correct, as repair works can recover 100% of fire/flooding and overpen damage.

 

1 though, is incorrect. Damage from fire is based on percentage of ship, also the tier of the ship. A burn on battleship would deal much more hp damage than on a Cruiser, because of Battleship's much higher hp pool. Players complained about fire on Battleships because they see the large numbers, but percentage-wise it's practically the same with Cruisers and Destroyers. Carriers though is an exception, they burn at faster rate than other classes.

 

The only problem I have with fire are fast-firing Cruisers with 6-inch guns, especially Cleveland because they can set absurd number of fires in quick succession. Atlanta is also a problem, but that ship is easier to deal with than Cleveland. 8-inch gun Cruisers though I'm not as worried about, because their RoF is only half of 6-inch Cruiser but chance of fire is only 50% more, also they are bigger and less maneuverable target so I can deal with them easier than Light maneuverable Cruisers.

 

The disparity between fire-prevention skill and equipment versus Demolition expert skill is a problem too. Demolition expert even after the nerf is still too strong, while fire prevention effectiveness is still abysmal.

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Beta Tester
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2 is correct, as repair works can recover 100% of fire/flooding and overpen damage.

 

1 though, is incorrect. Damage from fire is based on percentage of ship, also the tier of the ship. A burn on battleship would deal much more hp damage than on a Cruiser, because of Battleship's much higher hp pool. Players complained about fire on Battleships because they see the large numbers, but percentage-wise it's practically the same with Cruisers and Destroyers. Carriers though is an exception, they burn at faster rate than other classes.

 

The only problem I have with fire are fast-firing Cruisers with 6-inch guns, especially Cleveland because they can set absurd number of fires in quick succession. Atlanta is also a problem, but that ship is easier to deal with than Cleveland. 8-inch gun Cruisers though I'm not as worried about, because their RoF is only half of 6-inch Cruiser but chance of fire is only 50% more, also they are bigger and less maneuverable target so I can deal with them easier than Light maneuverable Cruisers.

 

The disparity between fire-prevention skill and equipment versus Demolition expert skill is a problem too. Demolition expert even after the nerf is still too strong, while fire prevention effectiveness is still abysmal.

 

Then fire prevention rate perk should be increased to 50% for BBs only then. Maybe that might balance it, for people who have the perk.

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Beta Tester
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Then fire prevention rate perk should be increased to 50% for BBs only then. Maybe that might balance it, for people who have the perk.

 

I'm fine if it's just 25%, 50% is a bit too much for level 2 skill.

Anyhow, fire and HE damage are the only effective ways for Cruisers to take down Battleships, while Battleships themselves can kill Cruisers in a couple salvos.

I'd be more satisfied if HE damage got nerfed more than fire.

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[FIGHT]
[FIGHT]
Member
8 posts
4,404 battles

 

Hello everyone....

My first post! :)

Now, I have looked and read over so many topics on WOWS to date, it's amazing what you learn and what you read.

Firstly, I flat out agree with flood damage. No ifs buts or maybes. Torps are hard to get many hits with against skilled opponents, and flooding is a realistic reward for doing a good enough job that at least of them hits. It is also a more rare occurrence (hand in hand with being hit by a torpedo) and is easy to hit damage control before damage can be done anyway (if I feel threatened by torps I always save my damage control).

Secondly, in my experience, to be on topic, the main arguments for and against fire being OP consist of:

For:

- Fires are too easily started, and can be started by anyone.

- Damage control party cannot deal with the number of fires that can be started by consistent HE fire.

- Fire damage in terms of percent damage, although not particularly damaging to cruisers, and certainly not as threatening to cruisers as torpedoes and well placed/lucky AP, is too devastating on battleships where their size and their large HP pool works against them (most damage received per tick than any other class).

 

Against:

- Cruisers need to be able to counter battleships. Fire is the only viable main way to do damage to battleships. If this mechanic was nerfed or removed, cruisers would be useless AA patrols that could not do anything against now OP battleships.

- Fire is devastating to ships. That's the way it should be.

- Git Gud.... Use damage control and heal. If you cannot do this as high tier battleship then you are a bad player. Fire is not OP. Players are bad.

 

My view:

Personally, I like playing cruisers and battleships a lot more than destroyers and carriers.

To give you my background I currently have a fairly new Leander, a fairly new Nurnberg, a Kuma, a Duguay-Trouin, a Konigsberg and a St. Louis in the cruiser department.

In the Battleship department I have a Bismarck, a fairly new Fuso, a New York, a Kongo, a Gniesenau, a Nassau (for playing with friends) and a Myogi (same reason).

 

I love playing cruisers in terms of escorting the big lumbering BBs (as long as they're team players) as well as CVs (Before you murder me I saved the two CVs from two DDs, did substantial damage to other ships from afar when in range and then the CVs saved us from the enemy BBs that were flanking us), and smashing other cruisers and destroyers with AP and HE respectively. I also manage to do a large amount of damage to battleships though through HE damage to superstructure with the cruisers general great accuracy and fire (mainly fire). I'm forced to respect battleship fire for fear of being citadeled of course, but I usually don't have to worry too much at medium to long range because of the bad dispersion BBs suffer from and WASD hacks. I usually steer clearer from them though and try to follow what a cruiser "should" be doing. (DD defence for BBs, AA support, Cruiser battles and escort duty)

 

In terms of battleships I enjoy leading a push with a good team (very rare) and smashing the enemy flank/front line, Supporting cruisers and acting as a tank for them (cruisers are more vulnerable, and the more guns you have for a longer period of time makes for a team win), dealing with other battleships (so much fun), and deleting cruisers (on the rare occasion that I get a citidel, or the cruiser doesn't know how to  WASD, or I'm just in a really good position). What I do dislike though is how much cruisers can do to me in damage consistently, due to combined HE and fire damage (mainly fire).

 

Now to fire damage and where my spiel fits in. Now the first "for" argument is one I greatly agree on. It is too simple for ANY ship in the game to do fire damage regardless of ship type. I have been destroyed by a destroyer hanging at max range that has set me on fire too many times, even after I used damage control party on the first three. "But why didn't you take him out first? You should have insta-wiped him!" In this case, the DD was at max range, meaning he had time to maneuver out of the way of my HE shells (which I then had to wait 30s to reload) and most if not all of my shells were most often off target due to dispersion (regardless of firing one at a time giving good spread of his possible evasive maneuvers). Now that to me was incredibly painful and utterly ridiculous. Then we come to cruisers with more guns with a greater fire chance.

 

Now in terms of the second and third "for" arguments, I agree and in fact have a solid piece of evidence to back this up.

I will show you a picture from a battle I just had in my Myogi to demonstrate what two cruisers can do to a battleship.

Damage wows.pngDamage wows 2.png 

Now the first shows the fire damage done. The reason I got this much done with just five fires was because I had to hit damage control for the flooding that a torpedo from a CV caused while I had one fire burning. Thus backing up the problem of damage control. At this point in time I was on the Solomon Islands map coming around a corner. I was getting HE fire from two LIGHT cruisers from over the headland that I couldn't return fire to due to shell arc. Within the next 30 seconds or so, I had four new fires on the ship that I couldn't fix. I hit damage control but it did nearly nothing against the fires. Meanwhile the cruisers were still pelting me with HE shells that did considerable damage (note the 11 000 HE shell damage done by these two cruisers alone). I decided to try and retreat, while angling and hoping to get some shots off before I retreated too far. However, I was destroyed by the four fires long before any target came around the headland. Otherwise, I had 28 000 HP in damage done by four fires within around a minute and a half that I could do nothing about and I was dead before I could fire on the enemy LIGHT cruisers. Now before anyone claims I exaggerate these time frames I have also got a photo of the time that I was destroyed in. Three minutes and 22 seconds. When you subtract the time for travel to the headland and the start of the engagement, it is clear I am not exaggerating anything.

So, is fire too easily started: Yes.

Is fire too damaging for game play: Yes

Is fire too easily overcoming damage control usage, whether skilled or unskilled: Yes

 

Now let's look at the arguments against fire damage.

The biggest argument: Cruisers need to be able to deal damage to battleships. Otherwise what is the point of playing cruisers, and that would make battleships OP. 

I disagree. For one, any decent cruiser player knows that there are tons more roles to a cruiser than taking out battleships, which ideally is the most ridiculous role you could think of for them.

These other roles include: engaging other cruisers, destroying DDs, hunting CVs, supporting BBs, overwhelming enemies in numbers, flanking, using torps (when in range) and capping. If you make world of warships a game where everything can take out everything else then what on earth is the point of different types of ships and no wonder no one cares about working as a team. Cruisers shouldn't be able to do so much damage to battleships. Sure they should be able to and are able to whittle down battleships health with HE without fires as it is, but a battleship should only be able to be hard countered by CVs, torpedoes and other battleships. Especially since battleships are slow, huge targets with low maneuverability and massive dispersion compared to fast, accurate and maneuverable cruisers that are jacks of every trade, and light stealth DDs that do massive damage with their torpedoes and flooding and make excellent scouts. This was the reason that battleships were built. If battleships could be countered so easily by cruisers then they would not have been built.

The other arguments of Get Good and real life equivalents are insubstantial without much explanation. Get Good is no argument as I have proven that damage control can easily be over powered by rate of fires started or usage on more damaging flooding. Real life fire damage is void when you consider that wows is in no way realistic in so many areas it's too long to list and explain, as well as the fact that the majority of fire damage is based on deck fires (not particularly devastating) compared to fires started by battleship AP shells within the ship that could blow up ammunition and fuel.

 

Lastly, from a game play perspective the nerfing or elimination of fires would not break cruisers or make battleships OP. In fact, it would force the team to work together more to win, and force players into more suitable and useful roles such as taking out a destroyer before it torps your allied battleship so you can burn the enemy battleship to death instead. Also, remember I gave you a written example of where I played a cruiser escort role for those carriers? I also got second place to the CVs first place in that game, which shows those cruisers scared of losing out on XP pinatas that they are not going to miss out just cause they can't take on battleships with relative ease.

 

Look forward to hearing many negative comments of how wrong I am and how bias I am to OP battleships etc etc etc.

Hope some of you found this a decent read otherwise.

Thanks for reading.

Cheers

 

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