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wintersky222

High Tier DDs broken?

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Hi all,

 

Just asking as im quite new to the game about a week ago... What is the actual role of high tier DDs in this game? Read some forums posts and quite some are saying that high tier DDs are quite irrelevant to the game since CVs have more plane squadrons and all it needs is just to tag one fighter/bomber plane squadron to your DD for long durations until you get back to friendly Cruiser AA cover. That and the fact that tier 5 and tier 10 DDs have just practically only a torp range distance increase only and one still needs to get relatively close range to secure actual torp hits.... as long range torp shots are just based on luck. The below is what i've read from forums so far....

 

CVs Torp squadrons can:

 

1. Fire Torps at very short range distances (no danger to CV itself) 

2. Fire torps at multiple angles to secure hits

3. Theres like 4 or 5 Torp squadrons for each CV)

4. Scout multiple areas with all the squadrons

5. Able to fire torps without risking damage to CV itself

6. AA fire only happens at close range

 

Cruisers have:

 

1. Ranged guns + higher damage

2. Short range torps

3. Good AA 

4. Same speed as DDs

 

DDs have:

 

1. Long range torps which cannot be consistently reliably depended on for hits

2. Risk damage to DD itself by firing torps at close range compared to CVs

3. Saving grace is 20 seconds of non-action and running away after firing will cause non-detection

 

Are high tier/Tier 10 DDs actually broken in the game? Should i even try to level up DD at all even or stay where i am? Wouldnt want to waste time going all the way levelling to find that it's really hard to play when im not learning well enough for low tier matches yet.... 

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Super Tester
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Good question wintersky222 

 

In my opinion, the high tier DDs (Shimakaze and Gearing area) are more of the support ship for your big ships but can turn into assault ships if needed. 

 

 

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Super Tester
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The IJN Torps are at this teir are BRUTAL very fast and do a truckload of damage, USN torps while not as good as the IJN counterparts for most of the tree starts getting long range at tier 9 

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Super Tester
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DDs are pretty situational but if done right you'll more often get more kills than anyone else on the team 

Edited by Juan_23

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Beta Tester
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at higher tier most ship try to clump up to stock their AA against high tier cv,  so long range torpedo from DD are good to break those thigh formation. a torpedo spread launch form gearing, shimakaze and kagerou can score multiple hits and possibly sink (if not damage) cruiser escort.

 

 

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Hi all,

 

Just asking as im quite new to the game about a week ago... What is the actual role of high tier DDs in this game? Read some forums posts and quite some are saying that high tier DDs are quite irrelevant to the game since CVs have more plane squadrons and all it needs is just to tag one fighter/bomber plane squadron to your DD for long durations until you get back to friendly Cruiser AA cover. That and the fact that tier 5 and tier 10 DDs have just practically only a torp range distance increase only and one still needs to get relatively close range to secure actual torp hits.... as long range torp shots are just based on luck. The below is what i've read from forums so far....

 

CVs Torp squadrons can:

 

1. Fire Torps at very short range distances (no danger to CV itself) 

2. Fire torps at multiple angles to secure hits

3. Theres like 4 or 5 Torp squadrons for each CV)

4. Scout multiple areas with all the squadrons

5. Able to fire torps without risking damage to CV itself

6. AA fire only happens at close range

 

Cruisers have:

 

1. Ranged guns + higher damage

2. Short range torps

3. Good AA 

4. Same speed as DDs

 

DDs have:

 

1. Long range torps which cannot be consistently reliably depended on for hits

2. Risk damage to DD itself by firing torps at close range compared to CVs

3. Saving grace is 20 seconds of non-action and running away after firing will cause non-detection

 

Are high tier/Tier 10 DDs actually broken in the game? Should i even try to level up DD at all even or stay where i am? Wouldnt want to waste time going all the way levelling to find that it's really hard to play when im not learning well enough for low tier matches yet.... 

higher tier IJN DD->absolutely broken

but it'll get better as you climb up

if you really want to grind it, be patient and work hard for the arrival of the glorious shimakaze

higher tier US DD->not much better than IJN

you have even worse torpedo than IJN DD

but it'll improve in high tier and you'll also get good AA and guns

if you have reached mid-high tier, just grind along

 

an unofficial statistic has proved that DD have the worst average result compared to other class

*don't tell me skilled DD player can do well, as the top 10% DD player have worse average result compared to the others

Good question wintersky222 

 

In my opinion, the high tier DDs (Shimakaze and Gearing area) are more of the support ship for your big ships but can turn into assault ships if needed. 

 

 

 

DD is NOT a support ship

According to Rock-Paper-Scissors dynamic, CA beats DD while DD can beats BB

DD is good for support but it's not its role, CA is even better for support

but in current situation,

IJN DD torpedo cannot hit BB because of the incredibly long torpedo detection range

US DD torpedo cannot hit BB because of the short range

The IJN Torps are at this teir are BRUTAL very fast and do a truckload of damage, USN torps while not as good as the IJN counterparts for most of the tree starts getting long range at tier 9 

Partly correct

IJN Torps are better than that of US

but IJN torps isn't good either

 

IJN torps have high speed, huge damage

but it have an amazingly long torpedo detection range of 1.8-2.1km

it means the enemy ship can spot your Oxygen Torpedo 1.8-2.1km away

divide the spotting distance by torpedo speed, you'll get the estimated reaction time of 12seconds

this means the sluggish battleships will have 12seconds to evade your torpedo, which far more than enough

any BB captains that is able to use his brain will be able to evade all your torpedo

 

This is the reason why high tier IJN DD sucks

DDs are pretty situational but if done right you'll more often get more kills than anyone else on the team 

Hey please don't separate the relpies

this is a kind of spamming

 

back to topic,

Do Destroyers(high tier as the topic mentioned) usually get more kills than others?

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20150805t/average_class.html

For top 10% players

Win rate:  BB->53%,CA->53%,CV->58%,DD->51%  DD is lowest

Average Exp: BB->1796, CA->1416, CV->2201, DD->1222  DD is lowest

Average damage: BB->65296, CA->40220, CV->79269, DD->28262  DD is lowest

Average Kills: BB->0.97, CA->0.87, CV->1.54, DD->0.69  DD is lowest

K/D: BB->2.25, CA->1.76, CV->8.55, DD->1.28  DD is lowest

any more arguments?

if no, then I can now declare, DD is underpowered

Rudder shift of BBs are going to drop around 4s when 4.1 hits. 

 

Good luck with that, I suppose.

 

sorry

what does that mean?

rudder shift time will be reduced by 4s or increased by 4s?

 

if it increases, it may saves the DD

but then the low tier DD will be OP and BB will likely to become UP

it's a rather bad solution for improving DD

why not just cut the torpedo detection range??

everything will be alright then

Edited by CarbonMonoxide

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Super Tester
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IMO at high tiers, DDs are still relevant since they can really be the eyes and ears for your fleet. No doubt planes can scout further and faster than DDs, you can see planes from kilometres away and you already know that the enemy has gotten your fleet and you can expect resistance soon.


As for DDs, they're your ghostly recon. DDs are really good at shadowing enemy ships way beyond heir detection range and that itself is an asset as well.

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IMO at high tiers, DDs are still relevant since they can really be the eyes and ears for your fleet. No doubt planes can scout further and faster than DDs, you can see planes from kilometres away and you already know that the enemy has gotten your fleet and you can expect resistance soon.

 

As for DDs, they're your ghostly recon. DDs are really good at shadowing enemy ships way beyond heir detection range and that itself is an asset as well.

 

Mid Tiers DD, however is currently in a very embarrassing state.

 

They aren't useless - Yet they are rather weak compares to the other class of ship. 

 

IJN DDs suffer for the Super-Ultra Long Torpedo spotting range and the Slower ROF after the Izokaze and the Minekaze - While USN DD had ____ Torpedos and their guns are pretty hard to use.

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View PostCarbonMonoxide, on 17 August 2015 - 07:03 AM, said:

Do Destroyers(high tier as the topic mentioned) usually get more kills than others?

http://maplesyrup.sweet.coocan.jp/wows/ranking/20150805t/average_class.html

For top 10% players

Win rate:  BB->53%,CA->53%,CV->58%,DD->51%  DD is lowest

Average Exp: BB->1796, CA->1416, CV->2201, DD->1222  DD is lowest

Average damage: BB->65296, CA->40220, CV->79269, DD->28262  DD is lowest

Average Kills: BB->0.97, CA->0.87, CV->1.54, DD->0.69  DD is lowest

K/D: BB->2.25, CA->1.76, CV->8.55, DD->1.28  DD is lowest

any more arguments?

if no, then I can now declare, DD is underpowered

 

Thanks for the statistics. Nothing is more clear than numbers no matter what everyone else says. With the numbers, it's pretty clear cut that DDs are just going pretty much to be only a spotter role in Tier 10 matches, especially with BBs buffed when rudder shift time dropping by 4s in 4.1 as one of the above posters said

 

It is sad how WOWS devs focus primarily on ship balance as a whole for all tiers together. If as said about 2.1km spotting distance with 12 seconds reaction time + BB rudder shift time decreased.... it's pretty sad. I can only but think that the devs are intentionally not doing something to DDs due to the strong vocal opposition by BB drivers. From the various statistical metrics, it looks like DDs are just pretty much broken. Sadly i still like DDs pretty much for now so i will still grind up for grindings sake to see how its like. But well, WOWS isnt going to get my money until they fix up the imbalance. IF they ever fix it..... 

 

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ST Coordinator
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It doesn't help you now have people yelling at you where the torpedoes are coming from. At higher tiers with the massive numbers of planes in the sky (Scout/CV planes), your torpedoes gets insta spotted after launch.

 

As someone who has played high level DD in CBT/PT DD like Shimakaze are only good for area saturation deny enemy ships from coming, that is, fire salvos of torps at advancing fleet to break their formation and cause them to turn around. The only other way is to shoot torpedoes down channels where enemy ships cannot turn out of the way, or the last resort, YOLO and drop your torpedoes at point blank range.

 

DD Life is Sad Life.

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Super Tester
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It doesn't help you now have people yelling at you where the torpedoes are coming from. At higher tiers with the massive numbers of planes in the sky (Scout/CV planes), your torpedoes gets insta spotted after launch.

 

As someone who has played high level DD in CBT/PT DD like Shimakaze are only good for area saturation deny enemy ships from coming, that is, fire salvos of torps at advancing fleet to break their formation and cause them to turn around. The only other way is to shoot torpedoes down channels where enemy ships cannot turn out of the way, or the last resort, YOLO and drop your torpedoes at point blank range.

 

DD Life is Masochistic Life.

 

*Fixed

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As someone who has played high level DD in CBT/PT DD like Shimakaze are only good for area saturation deny enemy ships from coming, that is, fire salvos of torps at advancing fleet to break their formation and cause them to turn around

 

Sounds like a waste of credits given that no xp is gained for no hits and that torpedos are expensive at high tiers going by what i read elsewhere in forums... Feels like it is just going to waste credits totally even playing at tier 10s especially if so. 

 

YOLO and drop your torpedoes at point blank range.

 

BBs receiving a buff in 4.1 for gun precision at close ranges for 3km and below...... pretty much against DDs YOLO method even more.... Dammit, they might as well delete DDs entirely.

 

I'm just going to raise my "No Fix= No Money For WOWS" banner from now on 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

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sorry

what does that mean?

rudder shift time will be reduced by 4s or increased by 4s?

 

if it increases, it may saves the DD

but then the low tier DD will be OP and BB will likely to become UP

it's a rather bad solution for improving DD

why not just cut the torpedo detection range??

everything will be alright then

 

http://forum.worldofwarships.eu/index.php?/topic/26589-full-list-of-041-ship-changes-from-pts-including-undocumented-changes/#topmost

 

koocR2s.jpg

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Super Tester
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There is no buff to rudder shift time. 4.1 is fixing an issue in the UI not displaying the correct values as you find further into that thread here.

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There is no buff to rudder shift time. 4.1 is fixing an issue in the UI not displaying the correct values as you find further into that thread here.

 

At least they didnt make it even more worse than what it is already now. & funny thing is the devs are giving the new BB Tripitz Torps too.It might not be long before they decide to pander to the BB population and give all BBs torps too. 

 

The worst thing is DDs have no proper role definition anymore(at high tiers):

 

Long torps hit distance isnt reliable as torp speeds arent hyper fast nor is blind shooting reliable

At middle distances, DDs have an increased chance of hitting targets but 12 seconds of torp detection means only totally tunnel-visioned people cant avoid getting hit. 

At super short ranges, DD gets shredded apart by 3km increased buff accuracy of secondary armaments of all ships, notforgetting primary ship guns which are even more devastating.

 

Either the devs dont read numbers at all or they're intentionally oblivious to this due to the noise of the BB crowd, that they choose to balance ships by viewpoint instead of statistics which show that DD are down on every single important metric. 

 

"GOOD JOB DEVS"

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There is no buff to rudder shift time. 4.1 is fixing an issue in the UI not displaying the correct values as you find further into that thread here.

 

Yes - because WG already stealth buffed them already - It's just they forget to correct it.

 

No wonder DDs are officially confirmed weak.

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At least they didnt make it even more worse than what it is already now. & funny thing is the devs are giving the new BB Tripitz Torps too.It might not be long before they decide to pander to the BB population and give all BBs torps too.

 

But Tirpitz did have torpedoes. It doesn't mean that every battleship did have them.

 

The worst thing is DDs have no proper role definition anymore(at high tiers):

 

Long torps hit distance isnt reliable as torp speeds arent hyper fast nor is blind shooting reliable

At middle distances, DDs have an increased chance of hitting targets but 12 seconds of torp detection means only totally tunnel-visioned people cant avoid getting hit. 

At super short ranges, DD gets shredded apart by 3km increased buff accuracy of secondary armaments of all ships, notforgetting primary ship guns which are even more devastating.

 

Either the devs dont read numbers at all or they're intentionally oblivious to this due to the noise of the BB crowd, that they choose to balance ships by viewpoint instead of statistics which show that DD are down on every single important metric. 

 

"GOOD JOB DEVS"

 

 

So your alternative is to make torpedoes travel at their top speeds (upwards of 80-90 knots) and make them undetectable to enemies?

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So your alternative is to make torpedoes travel at their top speeds (upwards of 80-90 knots) and make them undetectable to enemies?

 

No one ever demanded that.

 

Torpedo detection range just need to be Globally reduce by at least 15%.

 

Also, this again:

 

LdqZaSB.png

 

I mean, how do you even miss a Shimikaze Torpedo? 12 seconds of the announcer Shouting at you "TORPEDO DEAD AHEAD".

You'd be a Idi__ if you miss it.

Edited by Alvin1020

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I think that that is an unfortunate consequence of the higher tiers not being tested and balanced properly.

 

So, just give it time.

 

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I think that that is an unfortunate consequence of the higher tiers not being tested and balanced properly.

 

So, just give it time.

 

 

It was funny to see how the CBT or hell, even Weekend tests ended so quickly.

 

Give it time? Then why Rush "Open Beta"? May be it's because they see how "The Other Air/Tank game" successful are, saying they are still "Open Beta" and refuse to fix anything other than farming $$$ first? See the Tirpitz Hype train? 

 

I wouldn't object if the game will be in Alpha for like another 2 or 3 months or so.

 

If not Alpha how about longer CBT? Blue Line, DDs, CVs, AAs, Fighters - Always been a problem in CBT and Still had not been fixed or resolved.

Edited by Alvin1020

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So your alternative is to make torpedoes travel at their top speeds (upwards of 80-90 knots) and make them undetectable to enemies?

 

Dude, you're missing the point here. Looks like you didnt understand the gist of what we are trying to say here so far in this thread. No one is asking for higher speeds nor is anyone asking for stuff like 20km torp travel distance or even 15km or undetectable torps. Heck, they can make it 8km or 10km maximum torp distance and i wouldnt mind. I dont think you can find anyone who can use the extra torp distance consistently and reliably other than blind shots or praying some silly ship driver is going to drive straight with the same speed for a long long time.

 

Like Alvin1020 says, the main problem here is with the torp detection range distance, making for 12seconds. Every other ship class has significant upgrades that has clear cut improvements:

 

BBs, CAs have increased health, guns damage, damage distance

CVs have more squadrons/planes and torp damage

DDs has practically very little DPM torp output increase but torp travel distance increases to 20km/15km BUT WAIT NERF Torp detecion time by 33% from 9s at low tiers to 12.1secs at high tiers.

 

For instance:

 

Take a Tier 4 Isokaze torp output: 14.4k X 6 torps in 47 seconds = 276k damage in 150s (neglect the minor torp reload times for 2nd salvo reload times)

A Tier 10 Shimakaze: 21k X 15 rounds in 150seconds = 315k damage in 150s 

14% increase in damage for DDs from tier 4 to tier 10.

 

VS 

 

Tier 4 BB Myogi: 10k X 1.8 in 1minute = 18k/min

Tier 10 BB Yamato: 14.8 X 2 in 1minute = 29.6/min

 

64% damage increase from Tier 4 to Tier 10 BB

 

& dont get started the comparisons for health points, AA guns etc. 

 

Not that i care if they give DDs the same damage output as a tier 4 or with just 10km distance. All we want is just to keep the torp detection range at same as before. The devs buffed all the funny minor stuff (and in so little proportions as compared to other ship classes) but nerfed DD ability for torps to actually hit the target. For a DD, torps are everything. If the ability to hit a target reliably gets nerfed so bad that even a slow BB can dodge almost every single round, then no amount of buffs to damage output or torp max distance will help. The only way for a DD to do any worthy non-minor damage is to just YOLO into super close range at 2km and fire shots and die.

 

Gun rounds by BBs/CAs take like IDK say 10 or 15s at high tiers to travel. But for the same travel distance for torps, it's going to take 1 minute or even way more to arrive. Tell me if the extremely long distance is of any real practical use. Even if it's a silly ship travelling in straight line same speed for 1minute++, there's still like 12s sensor warning for enemy ships to react to.

 

I think that that is an unfortunate consequence of the higher tiers not being tested and balanced properly.

 

So, just give it time.

 

 

At least they could do a minor buff for the meantime while they figure things out, but it doesnt even seem they feel like its a problem even. Look, the soon to be buff of 3km guns accuracy for BBs doesnt matter to any enemy ships really, except ONE CLASS of ships. That's right: the buff is just to help BBs further against DDs for close-in YOLO suicide attacks. 

 

Time will change things? Maybe.... give it say... afew years after BB drivers no longer drive in the same straight line + same speed for long long periods of time and they stop whining about torps.... its funny how you dont hear BB shippers complain as much about Torp Bombers which can even do coordinated attacks from multiple angles which makes it impossible to avoid at least one torp hit, if not more.

 

I mean, how do you even miss a Shimikaze Torpedo? 12 seconds of the announcer Shouting at you "TORPEDO DEAD AHEAD".

You'd be a Idi__ if you miss it.

 

Change that to You'd be a BOT if you miss it.

 

 

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