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Steeltrap

Repeat of client-server de-synch thread per Conan's request

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285
[PANZA]
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Unraveler, isn't that WoT and not WoWS?

 

Same loginserver. Already from the posted screenshot, I see an issue there - 14.34 % jitter on hop 3 - Definitely the ISP that has an issue there, which quite possible began at the same time as the patch. Do they do any kind of QoS on datatraffic, both TCP and  UDP traffic ? A simple solution to test if it is the ISP that has an issue, is to use a VPN to test it. Most of the gaming related VPN services have a free trial, which would show you if it is the ISP or not who has an issue.

 

Can not see it as an WG issue based on the above screenshot.

A) WG is not the customer of on.ii.net, TPG might be, if they use MelbourneIT's  infrastructure

B) WG is not a customer of TPG either, your friend is.

 

Your friend needs to get TPG's technical support to find out why there is an issue which causes such high jitter on traffic going through 150.101.208.65. Ask them to escalate the issue to secondlevel support, and INSIST on talking with a networking technician, not one of the scriptreading studentworkers in the callcenter. It can be a port on the blink in the router, a router that it self is on the blink, a misconfiguration of the router with regards to datatraffic filtering or QoS,  higher priority traffic going through the router, delaying the traffic Unraveler is sending/receiving, heck even something as simple as a plug not sitting completely attached in its receptable.

 

If it was a general fault with the patch or the networking stack in the BW engine/client, we would ALL have the desynchronisation issue. We don't.

Have your friend contacted the TPG Tech Support and what have they said in response to the problem he experience - not meaning the callcenter responder, but their networking experts ?

 

 

 

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Alpha Tester
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If, however, WG has no responsibility, why is it people were able to play without any issues with exactly the same connections/hardware as they have now BEFORE 0.3.1.3?

 

My friend had stable, no de-synch game play. Soon as 0.3.1.3 deployed, his game went to hell THE VERY FIRST TIME HE PLAYED.

 

Seriously? WG changed NOTHING in 0.3.1.3 that had anything to do with networking/traffic and it's purely coincidental that some people suddenly found their game went to hell?

 

I'm finding that hard to believe. Sure, maybe what they changed has only caused an issue in conjunction with TPG's traffic/infrastructure, but to say WG had nothing to do with it is simply implausible.

 

I will, however, see what else can be done. Have sent Conan a bunch of stuff per his request in a PM.

 

Incidentally, my friend has contacted TPG who asked for much the same stuff (and extra) and they claim they can see no reason for it.

 

Game worked fine before, now it doesn't. WG changed something in 0.3.1.3 yet deny any responsibility. ISP checks their side says not their responsibility either.

 

I suppose a certain number of players on TPG should just give up on the game.

 

This is NOT a rant. I'm simply explaining it from an average player's perspective. As I said, have sent Conan some info and TPG have already said it's nothing their end. Who exactly should we believe, if anyone?

 

p.s. Unraveler is not the friend to whom I have referred, he is another affected by de-synch as well.

 

p.p.s. AALG if you happen to look back here, here's the tracert:

  2    16 ms    16 ms    15 ms  10.20.23.170
  3    16 ms    16 ms    15 ms  202-7-214-73.tpgi.com.au [202.7.214.73]
  4    18 ms    19 ms    20 ms  syd-sot-ken-dom1-be-10.tpgi.com.au [203.219.35.5]
  5    17 ms    16 ms    17 ms  po-200.sclarbrdr11.nw.aapt.net.au [203.8.183.25]

  6    18 ms    17 ms    17 ms  Bundle-Ether13.ken-edge902.sydney.telstra.net [139.130.214.101]
  7    19 ms    19 ms    19 ms  bundle-ether14.ken-core10.sydney.telstra.net [203.50.11.96]
  8    28 ms    29 ms    29 ms  bundle-ether12.win-core10.melbourne.telstra.net [203.50.11.123]
  9    41 ms    39 ms    39 ms  bundle-ether6.fli-core1.adelaide.telstra.net [203.50.11.90]
 10   73 ms    75 ms    72 ms  bundle-ether5.wel-core3.perth.telstra.net [203.50.11.19]
 11   73 ms    73 ms    75 ms  tengige0-3-1-0.pthw-core01.perth.net.reach.com [203.50.13.230]
 12   117 ms   119 ms   119 ms  i-0-0-1-0.istt-core02.bx.telstraglobal.net [202.84.141.158]
 13   119 ms   119 ms   124 ms  i-0-0-0-0.istt03.bi.telstraglobal.net [202.84.243.74]
 14   119 ms   120 ms   119 ms  unknown.telstraglobal.net [202.127.73.118]
 15   120 ms   119 ms   118 ms  sg2-n5596-fe-1-vl231.wargaming.net [92.223.116.163]
 16   119 ms   118 ms   118 ms  92.223.16.181

Trace complete.

Edited by Steeltrap

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285
[PANZA]
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If, however, WG has no responsibility, why is it people were able to play without any issues with exactly the same connections/hardware as they have now BEFORE 0.3.1.3?

 

My friend had stable, no de-synch game play. Soon as 0.3.1.3 deployed, his game went to hell THE VERY FIRST TIME HE PLAYED.

 

Seriously? WG changed NOTHING in 0.3.1.3 that had anything to do with networking/traffic and it's purely coincidental that some people suddenly found their game went to hell?

 

I'm finding that hard to believe. Sure, maybe what they changed has only caused an issue in conjunction with TPG's traffic/infrastructure, but to say WG had nothing to do with it is simply implausible.

 

I will, however, see what else can be done. Have sent Conan a bunch of stuff per his request in a PM.

 

Incidentally, my friend has contacted TPG who asked for much the same stuff (and extra) and they claim they can see no reason for it.

 

Game worked fine before, now it doesn't. WG changed something in 0.3.1.3 yet deny any responsibility. ISP checks their side says not their responsibility either.

 

I suppose a certain number of players on TPG should just give up on the game.

 

This is NOT a rant. I'm simply explaining it from an average player's perspective. As I said, have sent Conan some info and TPG have already said it's nothing their end. Who exactly should we believe, if anyone?

 

p.s. Unraveler is not the friend to whom I have referred, he is another affected by de-synch as well.

 

p.p.s. AALG if you happen to look back here, here's the tracert:

  2    16 ms    16 ms    15 ms  10.20.23.170
  3    16 ms    16 ms    15 ms  202-7-214-73.tpgi.com.au [202.7.214.73]
  4    18 ms    19 ms    20 ms  syd-sot-ken-dom1-be-10.tpgi.com.au [203.219.35.5]
  5    17 ms    16 ms    17 ms  po-200.sclarbrdr11.nw.aapt.net.au [203.8.183.25]

  6    18 ms    17 ms    17 ms  Bundle-Ether13.ken-edge902.sydney.telstra.net [139.130.214.101]
  7    19 ms    19 ms    19 ms  bundle-ether14.ken-core10.sydney.telstra.net [203.50.11.96]
  8    28 ms    29 ms    29 ms  bundle-ether12.win-core10.melbourne.telstra.net [203.50.11.123]
  9    41 ms    39 ms    39 ms  bundle-ether6.fli-core1.adelaide.telstra.net [203.50.11.90]
 10   73 ms    75 ms    72 ms  bundle-ether5.wel-core3.perth.telstra.net [203.50.11.19]
 11   73 ms    73 ms    75 ms  tengige0-3-1-0.pthw-core01.perth.net.reach.com [203.50.13.230]
 12   117 ms   119 ms   119 ms  i-0-0-1-0.istt-core02.bx.telstraglobal.net [202.84.141.158]
 13   119 ms   119 ms   124 ms  i-0-0-0-0.istt03.bi.telstraglobal.net [202.84.243.74]
 14   119 ms   120 ms   119 ms  unknown.telstraglobal.net [202.127.73.118]
 15   120 ms   119 ms   118 ms  sg2-n5596-fe-1-vl231.wargaming.net [92.223.116.163]
 16   119 ms   118 ms   118 ms  92.223.16.181

Trace complete.

 

No Jitter info in the traceroute data, so from that I can only see the routing. Can you ask your mate to download pingplotter (there is a free version afair), and run that, http://www.pingplotter.com/dl_pingplotter.html - Shows Jitter on the display, and please also enable ERR and PL% in the display.

 

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1,151
[BLUMR]
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If, however, WG has no responsibility, why is it people were able to play without any issues with exactly the same connections/hardware as they have now BEFORE 0.3.1.3?

 

My friend had stable, no de-synch game play. Soon as 0.3.1.3 deployed, his game went to hell THE VERY FIRST TIME HE PLAYED.

 

Seriously? WG changed NOTHING in 0.3.1.3 that had anything to do with networking/traffic and it's purely coincidental that some people suddenly found their game went to hell?

 

I'm finding that hard to believe. Sure, maybe what they changed has only caused an issue in conjunction with TPG's traffic/infrastructure, but to say WG had nothing to do with it is simply implausible.

 

Just pointing out - WG does reserve the right to deploy patches for their game, and does not accept responsibility for their customers' internet connection to the game, as outlined in their EULA, sections 6 and 7. As AALG has pointed out, if there truly was a game-breaking issue with the patch, it'd have affected a lot more players. At peak hours, there are at least 15k players on the Asia server alone, and similar numbers in NA and EU. Yet, this desync issue has not been widely reported at all.

 

For example: The 0.4.0.5 introduced some netcode changes which was clearly the cause of game-breaking lag. We were immediately aware of it because it struck all three (perhaps four - I didn't check the RU forums) clusters and practically everyone faced the same symptoms of incredible lag regardless of their internet connection or geographic region. This was remedied almost immediately through emergency server maintenance, and following the maintenance, connections went back to normal.

 

The changes to the 0.3.1.3 patch saw an overwhelming majority of players across all the server clusters continue on playing World of Warships perfectly fine. But yes, a number of players in Australia suddenly find themselves with a desync issue. I've searched the other forums, and found only one other short threads discussing the issue on NA, which they traced to either a hardware problem (motherboard utilities), or ISP throttling. Tellingly though, in our server's case, switching to a different route to the server through the use of VPNs or even an alternate connection results in the desync issue disappearing. My own personal conclusion? There's something up with the ISP not playing nice with how it handles information that WoWS requires, and they're either not telling the affected players, or unable to fix the problem.

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Alpha Tester
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Which is why it would be nice if WG and they can speak directly.

Unless you're a tech head, how are you supposed to sort it out when WG says "too few to worry about" and the ISP is allegedly lying?

WG HAS to know what they changed in 0.3.1.3 that could potentially affect traffic, right? The patch notes mentioned something along those lines.

So what was it, and what did it affect?
How does someone get THAT to the relevant ISP and question them about it, especially when WG hasn't ever said a thing of any value? It's beyond frustrating.

 

Syanda, I also have the quaint view that telling people who paid money that it "sucks to be you", or hiding behind the EULA, isn't a great look. But then many years ago I had responsibilities for a bank's responses to the Ombudsman, as well as complaints directed to the CEO, so that sort of 'justification' would simply have got me punted out the door, LOL.

Edited by Steeltrap

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Beta Tester
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Hello, I am already in direct contact with both our producer and our infrastructure guru/specialist/magician... 

Anyway, if you are de-sync-ing please provide a traceroute. You can PM me your complete traceroute along with your public IP (yes, that will help, and yes, it will be confidential.)

 

Thank you for your patience. 

 

I've just sent a PM to you with tracert result and other info.

 

That being said, I wouldn't complain if I had the same issue on WoT as well.

However, I'm not experiencing such problem on that game. Not at all. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but the whole network routing and client communication works same for both WoT and WoWS right? Then how come only WoWS suffers from this particular de-synch issue?

 

More so, I've tried ringing TPG support which they were miserable at detecting the problem. Maybe because I didn't raise it to technician but still, I was pretty demotivated due to lack of response from you guys for months. Why should I try to solve something by myself if the problem was caused from your end in the first place? Call me selfish however the way you guys left this issue "untoched" simply because not enough people are experiencing it, is just bad taste. 

 

I'll make a thread on whirlpool and see how it goes. 

Edited by kanade_

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Alpha Tester
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Oh, yes, good point kanade_. My friend ALSO has NO PROBLEM WITH WOT.

 

So if they're the same login server then surely the ONLY difference is the coding of the game itself, no? Which changed with 0.3.1.3.

 

Which is what I (and my friend initially before he gave up because WG) have been saying SINCE JUNE 7TH.

 

I included this detail on the original thread that was deleted.

Again, in the opening post of this thread, too: He tried playing WoT to see if it was affected; it wasn't.

 

So can someone from WG explain that? How is it a player could play WoWS before 0.3.1.3, can't after it, but still CAN play WoT on the same server (as far as their ISP is concerned) yet it's their ISP that's the problem?

 

Anyone?

 

Oh, kanade_, we ended up speaking with TPG's Engineering dept in Sydney; still no use, they have no explanation.

Edited by Steeltrap

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[PANZA]
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Oh, yes, good point kanade_. My friend ALSO has NO PROBLEM WITH WOT.

 

So if they're the same login server then surely the ONLY difference is the coding of the game itself, no? Which changed with 0.3.1.3.

 

Which is what I (and my friend initially before he gave up because WG) have been saying SINCE JUNE 7TH.

 

I included this detail on the original thread that was deleted.

Again, in the opening post of this thread, too: He tried playing WoT to see if it was affected; it wasn't.

 

So can someone from WG explain that? How is it a player could play WoWS before 0.3.1.3, can't after it, but still CAN play WoT on the same server (as far as their ISP is concerned) yet it's their ISP that's the problem?

 

Anyone?

 

Oh, kanade_, we ended up speaking with TPG's Engineering dept in Sydney; still no use, they have no explanation.

 

Different amount of data being transferred for one thing. In Wot, each vehicle can fire one shot at a time. In WoWS each vehicle in general can fire at least 4 shots at a time, plus stuff like torpedos, smoke and repaor consumables being employed etc etc. All this information on what takes place has to be sent to the server from the client, and results of corresponding actions has to be sent back to the client. Much more dataload in wows than in WoT.

 

If the ISP is throtthling or have misconfigured QoS based on traffic amount, WoT would not be affected due to lower amount of traffic, while WoWS would. Not a WG problem, but a ISP problem.

 

You want WG to contact TPG, to fix your problems with TPG's services, while WG is not a customer of TPG. Wrong way dude. YOU are the customer of TPG. YOU ask THEM to contact WG, to find out what they need to configure on THEIR infrastructure, or you change to another ISP where the problem doesnt exist. 

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Alpha Tester
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And yet exactly the same amount of traffic was travelling the same paths before 0.3.1.3 and doing so without issue. What changed? Nobody has been prepared to explain. I don't really want WG to contact the ISP; I want WG to undo whatever they did in 0.3.1.3 that broke the game for some people OR find a solution to it. WG did this, not anyone else. This seems to be a fact a lot of people have trouble acknowledging. The fact that it appears only to affect some ISPs in no way changes the fact it was changes WG made that started the problem; either their changes work, or they don't. If they don't, THEY should address it.

 

No, I believe the root cause of this can only be explained by the devs doing the programming, and we know how much they like explaining anything to customers, LOL.

 

For all of that, more than happy to have the ISP contact WG.

 

Bear in mind, however, it's taken me (and others) ~2.5 months to get a conversation started here, and I AM a customer of WG.

 

So who exactly should they contact? I'll happily go back to the engineers of the ISP and say "speak with this person in that department on the following contact number" but I need someone here to provide the name, department and contact number in order for that to happen.

 

Regardless, it's kind of funny WG changes something in their game software and expects some people to shift ISPs as a result. I suspect the more likely result is those people affected will just give up, but I guess we'll see.

 

Nonetheless, if someone will provide the required details I will again speak with the ISP. Please don't say support, lol.

Edited by Steeltrap

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Beta Tester
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Really? Of all these months of waiting, that's your response as a moderator?

 

What about delayed inputs? What about ships/tanks are not where they're suppose to be (wrong position)?

Both WoT and WoWS share the same symptoms when you're experiencing de-synch problem so why aren't they visible on WoT as well? Does this fall under your "more dataload" reasoning as well?

 

I tried contacting TPG though like I've said in my previous post, I lacked motivations to raise the case even further because you didn't address this problem at all. You never gave a single reply to our previous thread on beta forum nor acknowledged the problem. You took no action (as a moderator) nor made an announcement regarding to this problem. Again, why should we the player have the go all the way to find solution which you're not even interested in cooperating with us players and trying to solve the problem together? Also, don't forget this whole de-synch problem happened after certain updates/patches released by WG. It didn't happened out of nowhere and I highly doubt TPG made any changes from their end at the same time. 

 

Just to be clear, I'm more than happy to go further by raising the case to TPG. But the fact that you neglected our reports and not showing any interests in this problem for months just doesn't motivate me to do so. And your reason is "not enough people reported this particular problem"? Please...

 

With that being said, I've created a thread on whirlpool regarding to this issue.

 

I hope to hear back from Conan with an update.

 

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[SIF]
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Really? Of all these months of waiting, that's your response as a moderator?

 

What about delayed inputs? What about ships/tanks are not where they're suppose to be (wrong position)?

Both WoT and WoWS share the same symptoms when you're experiencing de-synch problem so why aren't they visible on WoT as well? Does this fall under your "more dataload" reasoning as well?

 

I tried contacting TPG though like I've said in my previous post, I lacked motivations to raise the case even further because you didn't address this problem at all. You never gave a single reply to our previous thread on beta forum nor acknowledged the problem. You took no action (as a moderator) nor made an announcement regarding to this problem. Again, why should we the player have the go all the way to find solution which you're not even interested in cooperating with us players and trying to solve the problem together? Also, don't forget this whole de-synch problem happened after certain updates/patches released by WG. It didn't happened out of nowhere and I highly doubt TPG made any changes from their end at the same time. 

 

Just to be clear, I'm more than happy to go further by raising the case to TPG. But the fact that you neglected our reports and not showing any interests in this problem for months just doesn't motivate me to do so. And your reason is "not enough people reported this particular problem"? Please...

 

With that being said, I've created a thread on whirlpool regarding to this issue.

 

I hope to hear back from Conan with an update.

 

 

Moderators are volunteers, drawn from the database of players. AALG did raise it through channels, although he does not have to, nor need to. He does not have to respond to your demands etc, etc, etc.

 

The only person who is from WG is Conan.

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Beta Tester
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This isn't lag or packet-loss, it's a very steady delay applied to the drawing of ship positions (but not shells or torpedoes). For me it's about 2.5 seconds and it does not appear to vary at any point in the battle.

 

I suspect that the de-sync effect is intentional and part of the game code, no doubt implemented to smooth out rubberbanding issues due to actual bad lag or packet-loss. I also suspect that the "jitter" on that router is fooling WoWS into thinking my connection is poor and so triggering the de-sync. As others have noted, WoT works fine (although ping is higher than WoWS). Well, every other computer game I've ever played has worked fine as far as network issues go.

 

While I appreciate you guys trying to help, I'm not all that interested in the game anymore. Most of my Premium time is gone now and it's been months since I was last able to play.

 

All the best. I'm out.

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Alpha Tester
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Moderators are volunteers, drawn from the database of players. AALG did raise it through channels, although he does not have to, nor need to. He does not have to respond to your demands etc, etc, etc.

 

The only person who is from WG is Conan.

 

It is highly unfortunate that mods sometimes become the target of entirely understandable irritation from players. In this case, kanade_, AALG took an interest in part I suspect because I wrote him a PM not long ago.

 

It's WG in general who deserve the flak. This topic was raised June 7th, and then in the forum June 11th (subsequently deleted), and at the same time I sent a PM (which was never answered; I wrote another about a month later). The entire lack of interest/reaction is WG's responsibility, but we're not going to achieve anything useful throwing rocks regardless of how warranted.

 

If Conan and the rest of WG finally can DO something, let's see what happens. The whole "we did nothing, it's everyone else's fault" does get rather old and, frankly, insulting, so I can understand the irritation probably better than anyone.

Edited by Steeltrap

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Member
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I'm in Sydney on TPG. I've not had any major issues myself. But I really feel for the ppl that do. Even just the occasional bit of lag drives me nuts.

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OK folks something we've just learnt about TPG and WoWS.

The DNS service that is set by default on TPG provided connections is having issues with the redirect from .jp to .aisa

A supertester found that their download increased from 300KB/S to 2.5MB/S by changing to the google DNS service (8.8.8.8).

 

Might be worth a try.

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OK folks something we've just learnt about TPG and WoWS.

The DNS service that is set by default on TPG provided connections is having issues with the redirect from .jp to .aisa

A supertester found that their download increased from 300KB/S to 2.5MB/S by changing to the google DNS service (8.8.8.8).

 

Might be worth a try.

 

This works for the first battle after starting the game, but after that the server desyncs return with a vengeance, so its pretty evident its also got something to do with WG's netcode and not entirely someone elses fault.

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Alpha Tester
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This works for the first battle after starting the game, but after that the server desyncs return with a vengeance, so its pretty evident its also got something to do with WG's netcode and not entirely someone elses fault.

 

Of course we know it's WG's responsibility. The same "at fault" ISP was able to handle the game before 0.3.1.3.

 

The only way this will be resolved is IF WG chooses to look at what they did in 0.3.1.3 and formulates a remedy for those affected, which is what I've been after for 2+ months.

 

Any other contributions from anyone, regardless of how well intentioned, simply serves to provide noise that hides the central fact:: WG did something that 'broke' the game for some players, some of who are PAYING customers, and thus WG has a responsibility to those customers to rectify the problem they introduced. If that requires them to deal with ISPs, even if through those customers, then that's what they need to do.

 

Eventually those same customers who paid and can't play might equally choose to perform a charge back via their banks (if they paid using CR card accounts) if the game continues to be unplayable.

 

 

It will be up to each customer how long they choose to wait to see if WG is going to act.

 

So let's all sit here and wait to see if WG in fact DOES act.

Edited by Steeltrap

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I've been consistently having issues. Was fixed for around 3 weeks but now up the creek again for the past few days. Done ping plots, all that sort of crap. Trace says 107ms but again, 4-5 seconds of desync. iinet in Melbourne and this is the only online game I experience these issues with.

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Beta Tester
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Again I'm seeing bunch of people with different ISPs having this de-synch issue.

 

Further proof that other ISPs experiences this as well. So enough with "only TPG has this problem!" shenanigans.

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Beta Tester
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This is getting [content removed] stupid, a 4 second delay on steering inputs and ships not being displayed where they actually are makes the game a unplayable mess.

 

Profanity.  Post edited. User warned.

~dead_man_walking

Edited by dead_man_walking

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[TOGN]
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if you guys are all with tpg then i'm not surprised there was an issue with them in wot too back in closed beta.

 

though i have had gaming friend that play games like eve online and wow  that had issues when they changed to tpg with unplayable lag and to be honest i've heard it alot and most just end up going back to their old isp mainly with eve online players and ccp do try to work with isp's.

 

and tpg are one of the worst isp in australia the only good thing about them is their price.

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Beta Tester
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if you guys are all with tpg then i'm not surprised there was an issue with them in wot too back in closed beta.

 

though i have had gaming friend that play games like eve online and wow  that had issues when they changed to tpg with unplayable lag and to be honest i've heard it alot and most just end up going back to their old isp mainly with eve online players and ccp do try to work with isp's.

 

and tpg are one of the worst isp in australia the only good thing about them is their price.

 

I'm not with TPG and my connection does not utilize any part of TPG's infrastructure, like many others have said, its not a single 3rd party's fault, though TPG's crap network probably exacerbates it for their customers, it is caused by whatever WG broke in 0.3.1.3.

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I'm not with TPG and my connection does not utilize any part of TPG's infrastructure, like many others have said, its not a single 3rd party's fault, though TPG's crap network probably exacerbates it for their customers, it is caused by whatever WG broke in 0.3.1.3.

 

yeah though i do see both sides the isp's blame the game company the game company blame the isp's and we are stuck in the middle. to be honest when i see someone complaining about server lag and they use tpg as their isp i don't bother reading the rest anymore lol.

 

 

also forgot to add there is more than one isp your data has to go through to get to the server and back again if its in another country so it could also be one of them which is the problem.i know that the guys at ccp take that into account when looking at a mass dsync problem and that does take a long time to go through.

Edited by camdy

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Alpha Tester
2,150 posts
486 battles

 

yeah though i do see both sides the isp's blame the game company the game company blame the isp's and we are stuck in the middle. to be honest when i see someone complaining about server lag and they use tpg as their isp i don't bother reading the rest anymore lol

 

Which is exactly the sort of thinking game companies rely on. You need only read through this thread, and the fact it's been almost 3 MONTHS since it started, to see what happens when customers become unthinking addicts to games; it lets game companies get away with all sorts of shoddiness.

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