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Hardbustard

Ships that are stationary should fire with no accuarcy

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Alpha Tester
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A real warship never stopped when firing because the platform become very unstable and guns could not fire accurate.  when a ship stops it starts to roll with the swell.    This will stop "Corner" camping.  Carriers should incur damage to aircraft because of the rolling flight deck

 

Edited by Hardbustard

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[SIF]
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it does not matter if a ship is stationary or moving, they all roll with the swell. Why should CV's incur damage due to roll? AC pilots adjusted their landings to match the ships roll, much like modern day pilots do

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Alpha Tester
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it does not matter if a ship is stationary or moving, they all roll with the swell. Why should CV's incur damage due to roll? AC pilots adjusted their landings to match the ships roll, much like modern day pilots do

 

    A ship that is static in the water will have major issues with stability above and beyond that of a ship  whilst under way in the same sea state.  This is why the superstructure on a ship is normally constructed much lighter than the hull to try and ease weight and decrease the stability issues.   When you introduce a larger swell from the beam  (port or stbd side) a ship will roll excessively and violently because of the swell, thus causing issues trying to aim.  Ships whilst underway have a gentle pitch and role motion and are a more stable platform.     Aircraft carriers used to regularly loose aircraft over the side during world war II due to weather and sea state.    

 

Modern day pilots have a different job than those of WWII era.   aircraft  undercarage is alot different (WW2 mainly tail draggers) and  the platforms they are landing on are much larger and a lot more stable now.   WW2 landings were generally onto aircraft carriers that were travelling as fast as they could go "into the wind"  which was generally into the swell head on thus stopping the carrier form rolling to port or stbd as much.  

 

The original aircraft carriers were made by putting platforms on colliers and other warships which themselves were designed to have a low centre of gravity and with the platform(landing deck added) these ships were inherently unstable and if stopped in the open sea with a beam swell would roll horribly.  

Edited by Hardbustard

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Alpha Tester
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it does not matter if a ship is stationary or moving, they all roll with the swell. Why should CV's incur damage due to roll? AC pilots adjusted their landings to match the ships roll, much like modern day pilots do

 

Not necessarily an accurate statement.

 

Ships are subject to six forms of motion.  Google and ye shall find.

 

The more you can do to limit unwanted translation and rotation motions, the more accurate your fire, the more accurately you maintain route course, the more effectively the crew can function and for flat tops, all the better for launch and recovery ops.

 

Of all motions, roll is arguably the least desirable - rotation of the shortest cross section of the ship about the longest axis - the longitudinal axis.

 

A simple method to limit roll is to maintain a heading so as to limit sea state influence against the longitudinal axis.  Put simply - steam into the direction the lumpy bits are coming from.  If this coincides with wind direction, so much the better.  

 

So making way does have a big effect on roll, just in that sense alone.

 

Pitch motion is a rotation of the *longest* cross section of the ship about the transverse axis.  Takes a great deal more influence to make a ship pitch than it does to roll.  So, seas that if copped square on the beam would make a ship roll like a pig will, if steamed into, produce far less rotation motion in the form of pitching.

 

Additionally, a flat top, when desiring to conduct flight ops, will make revolutions and bearing so as to bring true wind as much onto the bow as possible, if not dead on.  True wind, plus the addition of apparent wind from your ground speed, means that your aircraft will be taking off and landing into a stiff breeze.  Let's say the wind is steady at a nice 20 knots and we're making 25 knots across the ground - that's a free 45 knots of airspeed under the wings of your aviators.  A good thing.

 

Edit:  Hardbustard - I think you are confusing roll with pitch.  I know it's only words but - well, words.

Edited by Tanzer

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Alpha Tester
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Edit:  Hardbustard - I think you are confusing roll with pitch.  I know it's only words but - well, words.

 

 

Thanx Tanzer adjusted.  

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Senior Moderator
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Either way - stationary is bad for any ship in any sort of sea state above 0 (and even then you'll roll with the wind).

 

From experience more stuff broke falling off shelves when stopped with no way on then during the worst weather.

 

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Alpha Tester
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Either way - stationary is bad for any ship in any sort of sea state above 0 (and even then you'll roll with the wind).

 

From experience more stuff broke falling off shelves when stopped with no way on then during the worst weather.

 

 

Depends what you mean by 'stationary' Dead_man.  A ship has two forms of true translation - one is relative to the water column - 'water speed' - the other is relative to the earth - 'ground speed'.  A ship can be steaming hard and making good water speed - let's say 20 knots on the log - but only making 10 knots ground speed.  How?  The water column itself is in constant movement.  Tide, currents, flow, sets.  

 

It get's more head-achy when you take wind into account.  All ships, no matter they be small little craft or big grey floaty things are at the mercy of the wind.  Take a generic Panamax freighter for example.  Big, slab-sided things.  Blow wind at them and they act like a giant sail - not a very efficient one - but a sail nonetheless.  

 

A ship can keep itself quite 'stationary' in a geographical sense - zero knots ground speed - whilst steaming at say five knots water speed at 45 degrees into a five knot set with enough wind at 315 degrees to counteract that set.  Or on the other hand, you can be in an unfortunate situation in some wallowing scow of a thing where say your best water speed is seven knots, you're in a narrow channel with six knots worth of tide barreling down on you and the wind, that capricious thing, is pushing you sideways at a knot of leeway.  Let's hope for a nice muddy bottom, in this instance :-)

 

Dead in the water, I think, is what you guys mean - no propulsion, no heading control, at the mercy of wind and water.  In this case - sheer profile depending - you'll likely end up yawing from 45 to 90 degrees off the wind, rolling like a bitch, crew being beaten senseless and slowly traveling in whichever the combination of water column travel and your leeway take you.  Unpleasant.

 

There are other forces at work that aid in stability when you are underway.  All - no - sorry - *most* hulls generate lift when you put them under propulsion.  Think of a little runabout.  Slow it right down and chug along at 90 degrees to the seas and everyone will be heaving before long.  Gas it up, lift it onto a plane and voila - you can blaze away with the seas on your beam and yeah - not a massive amount of roll.  A big ship is no different - you won't get a Panamax onto the plane (would love to see it done though - put a big enough motor in one....) but gas one up to hull speed and you get lift.

 

Extreme examples being hydrofoil or hydroplane craft - lift the whole hull up out of the water and slice across sea state.  

 

This is cool;

 

Edited by Tanzer

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[SIF]
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 From experience more stuff broke falling off shelves when stopped with no way on then during the worst weather.

 

should have secured it better then DMW, velcro straps do not hold everything in place.

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Alpha Tester
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should have secured it better then DMW, velcro straps do not hold everything in place.

 

velcro alone, didnt fix everything but velcro, cable ties and gaffa tape did :honoring:

 

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Alpha Tester
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Tanzer - please tell me you were/are an Officer

 

God no.  Commercial, long ago.  Some time on DP II buckets later on.

 

A ship is a ship regardless though.  'A Ship' is a large void in the water into which paint, blood and client money must be thrown at a high rate to keep afloat.  The second mate is always a bastard, there is no such thing as a sane motorman and no matter how you dress it up, boiled cabbage is still boiled cabbage.

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[PBKAC]
Alpha Tester
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velcro alone, didnt fix everything but velcro, cable ties and gaffa tape did :honoring:

 

 

Also;

  • There is no gland yet, no matter how it weeps, that cannot eventually be tamed with judicious application of denso tape, hoseclamps & twitching wire
  • Never ever volunteer for helo deck ops
  • Any pump, when immediately required to or else, won't
  • All cooks are Polish, even if they have a Jamaican accent
  • If it is soggy, do not wipe your hands or any other part of your body with it
  • Customs and immigration are evil personified - globally.

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Senior Moderator
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should have secured it better then DMW, velcro straps do not hold everything in place.

 

 

velcro alone, didnt fix everything but velcro, cable ties and gaffa tape did :honoring:

 

 

Got in trouble for trying to gaffa tape the Coxswain into his pit after the pissed git fell out 3 times at anchor ;)

(sent him home with the next PB out with a busted arm!)

Edited by dead_man_walking

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Alpha Tester
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A real warship never stopped when firing because the platform become very unstable and guns could not fire accurate.  when a ship stops it starts to roll with the swell.    This will stop "Corner" camping.  Carriers should incur damage to aircraft because of the rolling flight deck

 

 

you may want to tell those captains on June 6 1944 (D Day) to start moving as none of the BB's bombarding the shore are moving. (i'll let you workout why)

 

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Alpha Tester
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you may want to tell those captains on June 6 1944 (D Day) to start moving as none of the BB's bombarding the shore are moving. (i'll let you workout why)

 

 

They  remained on station as part of a larger screen to do their job.  Most large ships like that are normally the "Guide"  where all other vessels keep station from them.  They manoeuvred to stay on the station or position alloted but they were still making way and not dead in the water.    Even a large ship with a flat bottom like that will still rock with a swell just not as much as a V bottom hull.

 

Anyway this thread is digressing .. I still believe in my original comment as ive been there and done that.   nothing worse that a ship (any ship) that is dead in the water.  it becomes a vomitron! and as such in this game if they made accuracy bad when a ship is dead in the water it would stop campers 

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Alpha Tester
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They  remained on station as part of a larger screen to do their job.  Most large ships like that are normally the "Guide"  where all other vessels keep station from them.  They manoeuvred to stay on the station or position alloted but they were still making way and not dead in the water.    Even a large ship with a flat bottom like that will still rock with a swell just not as much as a V bottom hull.

 

Anyway this thread is digressing .. I still believe in my original comment as ive been there and done that.   nothing worse that a ship (any ship) that is dead in the water.  it becomes a vomitron! and as such in this game if they made accuracy bad when a ship is dead in the water it would stop campers 

 

I agree with you - and if we (when we) get some maps with heavy weather, the de-buff should increase for a ship dead in the water.

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[SIF]
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alright then, lets get back on topic, ignoring the CV equation for the time being, Ships and Ships roll in game.

 

Should a stationary ship pitch and roll in game if the vessel is/has stopped? (I added pitch in due to the fact that if a ship comes to a stop head on to the swell, it will pitch, then yaw around with the swell and finally roll with the swell)

How difficult would be to implement into the game?

 

First answer from me:- Yes, it should

Second:- if we are talking about a basic roll/pitch just to imply the movement of the ship then not too hard, if you want the ship to roll/pitch in accordance to the swell action on screen, then that will be a lot harder, and require a lot more computer power then most players will have.

 

Oh, and I am trying to keep the questions/answers to the KISS principle, players who have never been near the ocean, let alone on a ship will read these sections some day

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Senior Moderator
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SO rather than a graphic input (or make it part of the higher end graphic output)..

 

Simple things - 

1.  If class = DD/CA/BB & Dead in water = True then accuracy = 0

2.  If class = CV & Dead in water = True then flight ops = 0

 

Making it harder

1. If class = DD/CA & dead in water= true & sea state = high then accurracy = 0

2. if class = BB and dead in water = true & sea state > 2 then accuracy = 0

3. if class = CV and dead in water = false & wind = beam then flight ops = 0

 

Working up to weather fully included and effects the game as it does/did in RL 

e.g. For ships without radar then heavy rain, fog (anything that reduces visibility) = no shot, low accuracy etc.

e.g. for CV - heavy seas = no flight ops, wind direction will limit amount of time on station doing flight ops (have to turn or run aground sort of thing)

 

edit - note that torpedo firing is just as affected by the weather if not more so (roll/pitch the wrong way and it'll land on you!).

 

Edited by dead_man_walking

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Alpha Tester
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it would be good to see any form of implementation as it would add realistic real world movement.  Cant wait to actually see the game one day but it would be good to get it right and stop the people that treat camping as a skill/perk

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Alpha Tester
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Can I see the 'data' that you are basing all this accuracy nerf on (ie stop dead, accuracy gets a nerf)

'Finally, in the summer of 1918, monitors were equipped with Gyro Director Training (GDT) gear—which effectively provided the Director with a gyro-stabilised Artificial Line of Sight, and thereby enabled a ship to carry out Indirect Bombardment while underway. This was a very significant advance, which basically established a firm foundation for Naval Bombardment as practiced by the RN and USN during the Second World War.'

What this shows is that you could only shoot targets (with higher chance of hitting it) while stoped dead in water before 1918. (British BB's did have this in 1914)

The main reason ships don't stop to shoot other ships is because they are easier to hit while dead in the water, nothing to do with accuracy.

If a ship is dead in the water in game then it should be easier to hit. not have less accurate fire.

Edited by BigWaveSurfer

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Alpha Tester
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this little bit also shows that the biggest problem with accuracy was to do with turning your ship. I do think the importance of US radar has been talked up a bit (as it was very much in it's earliest form back then)

"The introduction of improved stable verticals greatly improved the ability to control the accuracy of gunfire during turns.  In 1945, North Carolina tested her systems by aiming at the sun (and at night, the moon) while maneuvering through two 450° turns and two 100° turns maintaining propeller r.p.m. throughout while observers noted that such maneuvers could indeed move the MPI several hundreds of yards at battle ranges, such shifts were ". . . no more than would be desirable when using a rocking ladder of comparatively small increments," announcing that henceforth commanders might maneuver freely in battle.  This represented an order-of-magnitude improvement over the fire control systems of the late twenties and early thirties, when even thirty or forty degree turns were often sufficient to throw off the system entirely.  In 1927-28, for example, the battleships changed course by 20°, then by an additional 30° during a fifteen-salvo practice fired at about 25,000 yards.  The average error in placement of the MPI was about 400 yards in range and deflection, and not a single salvo hit the target.32

The new ability to fire accurately during turns, coupled with radar spotting, gave US World War II battleships a truly enormous tactical advantage over the majority of their potential enemies.  Most enemy ships which maneuvered to avoid incoming fire would have been unable to maintain effective return fire, while those which chose to keep to a steady course would have rapidly been smothered by highly accurate radar-controlled incoming salvos.  In contrast, the American battlewagons would have been able to maneuver, and fire, at will.  And the Iowas, at least, had enough speed to dictate the range"

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Alpha Tester
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If a ship is dead in the water in game then it should be easier to hit. not have less accurate fire.

 

 Your argument is flawed.  Your talking (or providing google data) about fire control systems and stabilisation which I dont believe you fully understand.    None of this stabilisation works when the ship is dead in the water .. the ship "will" roll and generally past its axis of gun depression causing much more difficult time with fire control  and subsequently aiming and hitting a target.

 

The below video is a High sea state but the concept is still the same. no forward movement no stabilisation of a ship.  If you put guns on this bad boy and stop the roll by 75 percent it still couldnt hit anything unless launching a harpoon.  .  

 

 

 

 

Edited by Hardbustard

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Alpha Tester
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um...no ship can fight in those conditions.

I think you a not sure of the fire control systems of the time. Naval guns did not stay trained on an enemy ship they would stay at the same elevation (according to range) the officer in charge of firing would fire the guns once then ship had rolled to the right point. if you had pitch and roll then they used 2 fire control stations to adjust for this. it wasn't rocket science

the hardest thing to correct was a change in course. take the sinking of the Bismarck. HMS Rodney stopped firing for 5mins because she had to make a change in course (09:13 to 09:18) Bismarck on the other hand couldn't hit anything during the engagement dew to uncontrolled steering (speed not being a problem for her at the start of the engagement).

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