A quick PSA

[Max_Battle]

Submarines are bad and should not be in the game.

That is all.

 

[Majmac]

Just had a T8 game with three subs, two DDs and 2 CVs per side.

It was not enjoyable.

[Thyaliad]

Had a game where there were 2 subs on each team with no DDs. The subs had no counter...

[Sambo_Cigars]

22 minutes ago, Thyaliad said:

Had a game where there were 2 subs on each team with no DDs. The subs had no counter...

As thing stand, destroyers are no counter for subs either. Why would you risk homing torpedoes and revealing your position to the rest of the red team? Only under very favorable  circumstances would I do an attack run on a submarine or if I have no choice.

[Thyaliad]

1 hour ago, Sambo_Cigars said:

As thing stand, destroyers are no counter for subs either. Why would you risk homing torpedoes and revealing your position to the rest of the red team? Only under very favorable  circumstances would I do an attack run on a submarine or if I have no choice.

Because DDs force subs to hang back with their friendlies for protection instead of getting in amongst your fleet where they are at their most dangerous. An overextended submarine is a dead submarine if an enemy DD is present.

[Sambo_Cigars]

9 minutes ago, Thyaliad said:

Because DDs force subs to hang back with their friendlies for protection instead of getting in amongst your fleet where they are at their most dangerous. An overextended submarine is a dead submarine if an enemy DD is present.

And the submarine, in turn, forces a destroyer to hang back instead of doing its normal duties.

[stel1arX]

WG: Though we are incapable of balancing subs, we've wasted 3 yrs on it, time is money!

WG: We haven't profited from subs, s189 and i56 are on the way to hunt whales, EA is on the schedule to harvest doubloons and credits!

WG: Silent majority haven't shown their love for subs.

WG: Don't like it then don't play it. 

[Thyaliad]

1 hour ago, Sambo_Cigars said:

And the submarine, in turn, forces a destroyer to hang back instead of doing its normal duties.

Nah not really. A DD's duties - spotting, screening the fleet, area denial with torps - is still the same regardless if there is a sub or not.

On the surface, both subs and DDs have similar concealment, so the sub risks taking return fire from your team if he tries to push into you to spot you. He could go to periscope depth, but then to spot you he would need to go into your AA concealment range, which depending on the DD can be as low as ~2.5km. This means he needs to be extremely close to your allies.

[Sambo_Cigars]

1 hour ago, Thyaliad said:

Nah not really. A DD's duties - spotting, screening the fleet, area denial with torps - is still the same regardless if there is a sub or not.

On the surface, both subs and DDs have similar concealment, so the sub risks taking return fire from your team if he tries to push into you to spot you. He could go to periscope depth, but then to spot you he would need to go into your AA concealment range, which depending on the DD can be as low as ~2.5km. This means he needs to be extremely close to your allies.

A destroyer is usually in a forward position, if it wants to be of any use to the team in performing the tasks you mentioned, so a submarine may stalk and attack a destroyer without being close to any allied ship. A destroyer in a forward position offers an ideal target for submarines.

[Thyaliad]

1 hour ago, Sambo_Cigars said:

A destroyer is usually in a forward position, if it wants to be of any use to the team in performing the tasks you mentioned, so a submarine may stalk and attack a destroyer without being close to any allied ship. A destroyer in a forward position offers an ideal target for submarines.

A DD is in a forward position, but not so far forward that your team cannot help. This is a common misplay by DD players, they either play too aggressively and put themselves in a position where allies are unable to support them, or they play too passively and don't spot or screen for the team.

In any case you still need to be positioned close enough to allies such that you can duck into their AA bubbles to deter enemy CVs. So if you are playing a DD where you can get stalked by a sub without being close to any allies, chances are you overextended.

Seriously subs are frustrating to deal with, but of all the ship types DDs should be complaining the least...

[Puggsley]

On 9/22/2022 at 2:10 AM, Thyaliad said:

Had a game where there were 2 subs on each team with no DDs. The subs had no counter...

DDs are not any sort of counter for subs.

They spot you and can go to periscope death, keep you spotted and you die to their support.

Only idiot dd drivers will go anywhere near a sub unless it has no support for miles.

You are at high risk of dying, and because depth charges are so pathetic at damaging SS you get hardly any reward.

The only thing which makes any sort of difference to this is a sub with very low battery charge because you can force it to surface.

[Thyaliad]

4 hours ago, Puggsley said:

DDs are not any sort of counter for subs.

They spot you and can go to periscope death, keep you spotted and you die to their support.

Only idiot dd drivers will go anywhere near a sub unless it has no support for miles.

You are at high risk of dying, and because depth charges are so pathetic at damaging SS you get hardly any reward.

The only thing which makes any sort of difference to this is a sub with very low battery charge because you can force it to surface.

Looks like someone didn't read my other posts in this thread...

[b6bs9l33t_____6ndv9g3n3]

Subs should just have their own operations/ pvp hunting each other down. in randoms, its pretty messed up

[Verytis]

Subs in their current implementation are bad. Although their attempts weren't exactly terrible.

What will probably happen is a similar process that CV went through, with wild swings and additional changes added over 1 or 2 years.

Still won't be great, but it'll be tolerable...

[Puggsley]

On 9/25/2022 at 2:53 AM, Thyaliad said:

Looks like someone didn't read my other posts in this thread...

I read them, i just don't agree with you.

[RumBuggery]

On 9/24/2022 at 10:05 PM, Puggsley said:

charges are so pathetic at damaging SS

I got 15 depth charge hits on a sub without sinking it... (Halland launcher)

My experience echoes what everyone has said.  I find subs incredibly frustrating to play against, sometimes.

Stealth is life for a DD.  Subs are just one more way to get spotted...  Radar, hydro, planes, stealthier DDs and now subs.

A typical experience is that a sub surfaces and I am spotted...  If I shoot then the sub dives with very little damage and I am spotted by the enemy team for 20 seconds.  If I charge the sub it sends some torps down my throat which often get me.  If I dodge and drop depth charges they often fail to sink it.  They sometimes surface underneath me and sink me by ramming...  No matter what I did I just could not win.  If I decide to really focus on killing a sub I spend valuable minutes sailing around in circles and failing to find it, even with good hydro.  Then they pop up far away.

I am completely powerless against a good sub player.  They are too fast, too had to find, too hard to kill and they get away too easily.

I would like another counter against them.  I would gladly trade my depth charges for an asw air strike radio.

How about something like sonobuoys?  Not sure how they would work...  Every ship with depth charges should have some asw sonar.

Or how about a hedgehog style asw weapon that is actually aimed at a subs location.  ASW homing torps???  Why not?

[RumBuggery]

OK, here's a suggestion.  Real subs are at their most vulnerable when on the surface.  I would like to see wows subs much more vulnerable to shell fire.

I suggest that shell fire has a probability of causing pressure hull damage that makes diving impossible until it is repaired.

This would remove my biggest frustration with subs, which is that they can surface any time to spot me and get me sunk with no risk at all to themselves.

[UnderTheRadarAgain]

I'm almost at the point of abandoning random battles completely, especially when I get double CV, double submarine games. I mostly play cruisers or BB's. Most of my cruisers have depth charges that drop over the stern, just like DD's only worse because my cruisers are bigger and far less stealthy than DD's. It's most frustrating because there is no automatic detection - unlike every other ship class. Even hydro-acoustic only detects the sub at 2km. At least now operations are a viable alternative, so there is that.

[Cyberwaste]

Subs are terrible. They force whoever they're near to abandon everything else they're doing to try to counter them. The subs can just troll a battleship from outside detect without pinging and circle them before the guns can even turn. It's terrible implementation. They shouldn't be put in the game in this state. They should be taken out completely until something actually workable is done with them.

[Puggsley]

17 hours ago, UnderTheRadarAgain said:

I'm almost at the point of abandoning random battles completely, especially when I get double CV, double submarine games. I mostly play cruisers or BB's. Most of my cruisers have depth charges that drop over the stern, just like DD's only worse because my cruisers are bigger and far less stealthy than DD's. It's most frustrating because there is no automatic detection - unlike every other ship class. Even hydro-acoustic only detects the sub at 2km. At least now operations are a viable alternative, so there is that.

I pretty much only play TX randoms because there is one CV.

Don't have lines to grind, but now the option of operations exists for a lot of the grind. Save high multiplier flags for T9 I guess.

The vast majority of my games now are ranked or CBs. 

[S0und_Theif]

Found a quote from the game's developer WeeGee's history advisor / consultant.

That quote aged like fine milk on a hot sunny day.

 

 

NOTE:
I remember watching this video, but I can not find the full video.
WG must have removed it, so that they won't be called out for their past statements (lies).

[Puggsley]

39 minutes ago, S0und_Theif said:

Found a quote from the game's developer.

That quote aged like fine milk on a hot sunny day.

 

 

NOTE:
I remember watching this video, but I can not find the full video.
WG must have removed it, so that they won't be called out for their past statements (lies).

It's a bit like saying "Just the tip"

[S0und_Theif]

27 minutes ago, Puggsley said:

It's a bit like saying "Just the tip"

And we all know, it's always never "just the tip".

[Paladinum]

1 hour ago, S0und_Theif said:

Found a quote from the game's developer.

Nicolas Moran isn't a developer. He is one of the history advisors/consultants to WeeGee, chiefly WoT.

With that said, he made more sense in that little clip than WeeGee's 2+ year attempt at shoehorning subs into the game.

[S0und_Theif]

43 minutes ago, Paladinum said:

Nicolas Moran isn't a developer. He is one of the history advisors/consultants to WeeGee, chiefly WoT.

Ah, my mistake.

I will correct that statement / line.

Thanks for the heads up.

 

43 minutes ago, Paladinum said:

With that said, he made more sense in that little clip than WeeGee's 2+ year attempt at shoehorning subs into the game.

Someone who is not a developer, but a consultant, and knows the game better than WeeGee's own developers and managers is just laughable.