​📰 and ​🚢 Public Test 0.11.6, Changes to Submarines and Soviet Submarine (S-189)

[S0und_Theif]

Changes to Submarines — 0.11.6 Public Testing

We continue to fine-tune submarines based on testing results.

 

Tier VI Cachalot, Tier VIII Salmon, and Tier X Balao, American Submarine:

• Dive Capacity recovery rate reduced from 1.5 units/s to 1.2 units/s.

Tier VI U-69, Tier VIII U-190, and  Tier X U-2501, German Submarine:

• Dive Capacity recovery rate reduced from 1 units/s to 0.8 units/s.

 

Changes to submarine speed and turning circle radius:

	Surface speed (knots)		Underwater speed (knots)		Turning circle radius (meters)
	Before	After	Before	After	Before	After
Cachalot	25	27	15	13	550	500
Salmon	31	33	18	16	640	580
Balao	28	30	29	26	650	590
U-69	25	27	15	13	470	420
U-190	27	29	15	13	540	480
U-2501	26	27	31	27	540	480
I-56	27	29	15	13	750	670

 

Changes to Upgrades:

• The bonus to Dive Capacity reserve provided by the "Dive Capacity Modification 2" upgrade (6th slot) has been reduced from 20% to 15%.

 

 

 

Please note that all information in the development blog is preliminary. Announced adjustments and features may change multiple times during testing. The final information will be published on our game's website.

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Links:

https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/338

[S0und_Theif]

Soviet submarine S-189, Tier VIII

In one of our previous publications (https://blog.worldofwarships.com/blog/243), we talked about the addition of submarine S-189 to the game. Today, we’re ready to share its features and performance characteristics.

 

S-189, a Project 613 submarine (the most numerous class of submarines of the USSR Navy) was built taking into account the experience of the Second World War. She had the ability to operate underwater for long periods of time.

The submarine is equipped with 4 bow and 2 stern torpedo tubes. S-189’s homing torpedoes have a short range of 5 km, so its alternative torpedoes are its main armament. This sub is distinguished by its good Dive Capacity reserve, good concealment, as well as a Hydrophone consumable with an increased range of 10 km.

 

 

Please note that all information in the development blog is preliminary. Announced adjustments and features may change multiple times during testing. The final information will be published on our game's website.

---

S-189
Tier VIII
Soviet Submarine

Survivability:
Hit Points - 14,200 HP.
Plating - 19 mm.

Fire Duration - 30 s.
Flooding Duration - 30 s.

Torpedo Protection - 0%.

 

Active Sonar:
Ping Velocity - 980 m/s.
Ping Width - ?? m.
Ping Range - 5 km

Duration of a Ping on a Highlighted Sector Once - 25 s.
Duration of a Ping on a Highlighted Sector Twice - 30 s.

Reload Time - 8 s.

 

Torpedo Armament (Homing Torpedo):
Torpedo Tubes - 6 --- 533 mm (6 × 1).
Firing Range - 5 km.

Bow Torpedo Tubes Loading at a Time - 4.
Stern Torpedo Tubes Loading at a Time - 2.

Maximum Torpedo Damage - 9,544. Torpedo Speed - 65 kt. Torpedo Detectability - 1.7 km.

Reload Time - 61 s.
Launcher 180° Turn Time - 15 s.
Dispersion of Bow Torpedo Tubes - 3°.
Dispersion of Stern Torpedo Tubes - 2°.

Torpedo Armament (Conventional Torpedo):
Torpedo Tubes - 6 --- 533 mm (6 × 1).
Firing Range - 12.3 km.

Bow Torpedo Tubes Loading at a Time - 4.
Stern Torpedo Tubes Loading at a Time - 2.

Maximum Torpedo Damage - 14,300. Torpedo Speed - 74 kt. Torpedo Detectability - 2 km.

Reload Time - 61 s.
Launcher 180° Turn Time - 15 s.
Dispersion of Bow Torpedo Tubes - 3°.
Dispersion of Stern Torpedo Tubes - 2°.

 

Underwater Capability:
Dive Capacity - 250 units.
Dive Capacity Depletion Rate - 1 unit/s.
Dive Capacity Rrecharge Rate - 0.8 unit/s.

 

Manuverbility:
Maximum Surface Speed - 30 kt.
Maximum Underwater Speed - 21 kt.
Turning Circle Radius - 480 m.
Rudder Shift Time - 5.7 s.

 

Detectability:
Detectability by Sea - 5.5 km.
Detectability by Air - 2. km.

 

Consumables:
Slot 1 - Damage Control Party
(Action Time - 5 s; Reload Time - 40 s.) [Based on DD DCP]
(Action Time - 5 s; Reload Time - 40 s; Number of Charges - 3.) [Based on German SS DCP]

Slot 2 - Hydrophone
(Action Time - 40 s; Ship Detection Range - 10 km; Submarine Detection Range - 10 km;  Ping Interval - 6 s; Reload Time - 80 s; Preparation Time - 300 s.)

 

 

 

All stats are listed without crew and upgrade modifiers but with best available modules. The stats are subject to change during the testing.

[New_Jersey_prpr]

I don't have interest in seeing these bullsh*t subs anymore.

When can WG reveal Japanese CLs? Those are the ships I really want to take a look at.

Even the new premiums seems boring for me.

[Paladinum]

Russian  submarines  

[Reinhard_of_Avercland]

Where's Sevastopol? Don't tell me you keep it mothballed because of the location of the city it is named after.

[New_Jersey_prpr]

3 minutes ago, Reinhard_of_Avercland said:

Where's Sevastopol? Don't tell me you keep it mothballed because of the location of the city it is named after.

That's exactly why she's still not released.

[Admiral_Karasu]

'Fine tuning'? Come on, that's either pathetic or ridiculous. Can't make up my mind which. Or is it both?

[S0und_Theif]

4 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

'Fine tuning'? Come on, that's either pathetic or ridiculous. Can't make up my mind which. Or is it both?

Can use both.

[Admiral_Karasu]

1 minute ago, S0und_Theif said:

Can use both.

[Paladinum]

3 minutes ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

pathetic or ridiculous

And senseless and tasteless and pointless and convoluted and frustrating.

[Admiral_Karasu]

2 minutes ago, Paladinum said:

And senseless and tasteless and convoluted and pointless and frustrating.

 

[S0und_Theif]

9 minutes ago, Paladinum said:

And senseless and tasteless and pointless and convoluted and frustrating.

Hear! Hear!

[S4pp3R]

Still haven't fixed core issues... SIGH

[Grygus_Triss]

1 hour ago, S4pp3R said:

Still haven't fixed core issues... SIGH

That was the spotting issue, wasn’t it?

And the fact that the ships that are affected most by this have to close the 5.4-7km gap in order to attack the subs. While getting shot at by enemy fire.

Yes, I know that larger ships may have this issue with DDs, but they are usually better armoured.

[S4pp3R]

6 hours ago, Grygus_Triss said:

That was the spotting issue, wasn’t it?

And the fact that the ships that are affected most by this have to close the 5.4-7km gap in order to attack the subs. While getting shot at by enemy fire.

Yes, I know that larger ships may have this issue with DDs, but they are usually better armoured.

Yep, it's complicated and I probs should do a forum post on it but effectively - yes, the spotting/interaction system for Subs.

[Moggytwo]

19 hours ago, Admiral_Karasu said:

'Fine tuning'? Come on, that's either pathetic or ridiculous. Can't make up my mind which. Or is it both?

Well it definitely seems like fine tuning to me.  They aren't exactly sweeping mechanics changes.  Sub mechanics are in a pretty good spot right now, the best they've ever been, but they continue to just tweak, and these changes are likely an improvement.  I'd say they are pretty close to release.

2 hours ago, S4pp3R said:

Yep, it's complicated and I probs should do a forum post on it but effectively - yes, the spotting/interaction system for Subs.

Having played subs a lot over the last few patches, and played plenty of DD's against subs, I'm extremely happy with how the spotting/interaction with DD's works.  Hunting subs in DD's is like everything else DD related - positioning well and then picking the appropriate moment to be aggressive.  When you work yourself into the window of opportunity to get aggressive on a sub, it's extremely satisfying and fun to get in and try and kill them.  Playing as a sub, when you get hunted by a DD it can be very exciting and tense.  This interaction is one of the best things in the entire game right now, and is one of the reasons I absolutely cannot wait for subs to finally be fully released.

There are still issues though with subs.  The ability to turn a flank through your mere presence in a sub leads to an aggressive and well played sub being very influential on the win.  You can get right amongst the flank and cause havoc.  It's also a class that can have a real mental impact on the enemy, and cause players to act in ways they normally wouldn't.  I'll quite often ping ships I have no intention of attacking just to make them nervous or unhappy, and often mere pings with no actual attack will get a strongly positioned ship running away.  At the same time mistakes in subs are even more brutally punished than mistakes in DD's or CL's.  Subs very often come last in the team because of this.  The overall effect is a significant skill floor/ceiling disparity.  I'm currently sitting on over 77% win rate after 132 battles in Balao, mostly solo, and that sort of game impact is not in line with my normal game impact.  Average damage is relatively low though, likely on par with a same tier DD, which would put it equal last in terms of class damage.

The changes they've listed above will help mitigate game impact of well played subs.  They are overall nerfs, but in particular they nerf the ability for subs to be in amongst the enemy flank, and although subs will still be able to do this, they will be more vulnerable with slower underwater speeds and slower dive time recharge.  The tier 6 and 8 subs did not need their underwater speeds nerfed at all though, 15 kts is already barely moving, and 13 is pretty absurd.  I wouldn't be surprised if they revert the tier 6 and 8 underwater speed nerfs.

[S0und_Theif]

On 6/30/2022 at 5:14 PM, S0und_Theif said:

S-189
Tier VIII
Soviet Submarine

 

 

Consumables:
Slot 2 - Hydrophone
(Action Time - 40 s; Ship Detection Range - 10 km; Submarine Detection Range - 10 km;  Ping Interval - 6 s; Reload Time - 80 s; Preparation Time - 300 s.)

Russian Bias!

Basically an Eye of Sauron Stalin submarine.
Radar submarine.

Americans has 5.5 km detection range.
Germans has 6 km detection range.

All of them have a 40 seconds action time.

 

WeeGee could either decrease the action time by half, increase the reload time by double, or decrease the surface ship detection range to American level range.

 

 

 

Edit:

In the devblog, WG only put SS spotting.
No mention of ship bearing / spotting.

Quote

2 slot - Hydrophone (Duration time 40 s; Preparation time 300 s; Submarine spotting range at maximum depth 10.0 km;  Interval between pings 6 s; Reload time 80 s; Equipment is unlimited)

However, looking at both US and German Hydrophone in the game, ship spotting / bearing and submarine spotting are at the same range.

5.5 km for the Americans.
6 km for the Germans.

[Admiral_Karasu]

@MoggytwoI feel you didn't fully appreciate the succint meaning behind my statement. I don't feel like they are moving in the correct direction, and the issues with inadequate countermeasures has not been addressed. At all, as far as I can see (which isn't very far as you cannot reliably detect the submarines due to ... pathetically illogical game design choices). ASW operations are impossible to conduct due to the overall game design/meta as it exists. One huge issue in itself is the ping/DCP interconnection which either a) wrecks the purpose of ping reset; b) wrecks the functionality of DCP; or, c) wrecks both of them.

[Verytis]

6 hours ago, Moggytwo said:

At the same time mistakes in subs are even more brutally punished than mistakes in DD's or CL

DDs, yes. But a CL? Absolutely no.

Unless that sub is completely alone, it will have no issue diving under your radar, and then permaspot you.

CLs also have worse air detection than heavy cruisers, which periscope spotting also uses, making it very easy to keep you spotted while hiding from said radar.

Not to mention that trying to stay on top of a sub with a CL is also horrendous.

 

I recall having a sub under my Mino's hydro for a full minute, as we both kept sailing in a tight clockwise circle. And I couldn't get ahead even with RN CL's full-speed turning.

All so I can drop was 2x4 depth charges.

CLs are nowhere near practical in terms of sub hunting atm.

[S4pp3R]

14 hours ago, Moggytwo said:

There are still issues though with subs.  The ability to turn a flank through your mere presence in a sub leads to an aggressive and well played sub being very influential on the win.  You can get right amongst the flank and cause havoc.  It's also a class that can have a real mental impact on the enemy, and cause players to act in ways they normally wouldn't.  I'll quite often ping ships I have no intention of attacking just to make them nervous or unhappy, and often mere pings with no actual attack will get a strongly positioned ship running away.  At the same time mistakes in subs are even more brutally punished than mistakes in DD's or CL's.  Subs very often come last in the team because of this.  The overall effect is a significant skill floor/ceiling disparity.  I'm currently sitting on over 77% win rate after 132 battles in Balao, mostly solo, and that sort of game impact is not in line with my normal game impact.  Average damage is relatively low though, likely on par with a same tier DD, which would put it equal last in terms of class damage.

The changes they've listed above will help mitigate game impact of well played subs.  They are overall nerfs, but in particular they nerf the ability for subs to be in amongst the enemy flank, and although subs will still be able to do this, they will be more vulnerable with slower underwater speeds and slower dive time recharge.  The tier 6 and 8 subs did not need their underwater speeds nerfed at all though, 15 kts is already barely moving, and 13 is pretty absurd.  I wouldn't be surprised if they revert the tier 6 and 8 underwater speed nerfs.

Agreed although I don't think the speeds will factor in as much as you do.

The core to the flank collapse factor is the spotting/etc interactions... I still believe these need work.

DD v SS is some of the better interactions, particularly those armed with Hydro but it's still not great (I say this as a poor DD player).

[H_87A_2CU]

Oh yeah great

Just what this game needs, another Submarine, when you haven't even balanced them yet.......along with a  8 sec reload on the ping, not that it'll effect the game in any way at all (sarcasm 101 by the WG......it'll effect the game.- but I know you don't care)........so I'm burning - do I put out the fire to survive or shall I hang on as a Sub pinged me a moment ago.........put the fire out and I wear 20K damage from homing torpedoes,and that's not even a  citadel hit.........with no defense....................because homing torps are skillz and its fair and engaging for ships to be on the receiving end..........can I have homing for my DD torps and Shells from my main guns please................because why should one class get guided weapons and not the rest................

So in 0.11.6 they can get to places faster on the surface, just as fast underwater (2kts decrease is nothing), turn better along with fast ping reload, and fast torpedo reload with homing.     I'm sure Moggy/Shark or someone will be along shortly and earn their WG money by sprouting the propaganda/party line that these are fair and balanced (or is it they've finally found the level their skills finally work at).............WG if you want to kill the game just pull the server for god sake and stop the slow demises and pain for your players, it'll be easier and cheaper in the long run..........

H

[Moggytwo]

26 minutes ago, H_87A_2CU said:

I'm sure Moggy/Shark or someone will be along shortly and earn their WG money by sprouting the propaganda/party line that these are fair and balanced (or is it they've finally found the level their skills finally work at).

Ooooh I've been called out, this is exciting!  Here I am! 

30 minutes ago, H_87A_2CU said:

so I'm burning - do I put out the fire to survive or shall I hang on as a Sub pinged me a moment ago...

This is the question isn't it.  What do you use your DCP for, and when?  Time it right and you'll minimise damage significantly.  Time it wrong and eat a heap of damage.  It sounds almost like a difficult choice with consequences.  Perhaps you also have to adjust your positioning and actions based on when you've used your DCP as well.  I'm sure there's no skill or engaging game play involved with any of these things of course - we all know difficult choices makes for crappy game play, what we really want is mindless button mashing.

Alright, I'll set aside the sarcasm for a moment, and try to discuss this sensibly.  When it comes to avoiding torps, you aren't guaranteed of being hit by homing torps in any ship type just because you have a ping on you.  I've seen plenty of ships, including lots of BB's, avoid homing torps while having active pings.  There are two factors to this.  Firstly you need to be moving, angled in or out.  When you see the torps you turn into them if you're angled in, and turn away if you're angled away.  So long as you time it when the torps reach their stop homing distance, you'll comfortably avoid them.  This sort of movement and angling is what you want to be doing against shells as well, so it fits in nicely with existing counter play to other ships.  If you're stationary or sailing in a straight line, you're never going to avoid homing torps, and you can expect to have your game ruined as a result of your poor choices.

Secondly, the stop homing range is halved with a double ping.  This makes it much harder to avoid homing torps with a double ping.  So if you are double pinged, that is when you really want to consider hitting that DCP button.  If you're only single pinged, you want to be doing what I said above, and preferring to rely on active avoidance.  So how to avoid a double ping?  Well the same way you avoid incoming shells, because a ping is like a really slow shell - don't sit still, and don't sail broadside in straight lines.  Angle and change direction frequently, and your chance of being double pinged is dramatically reduced.

Homing torps are new, and many players are unaware of counter play options, but like everything else in this game, there are plenty of things you can do to mitigate incoming damage and make the enemy have a much more difficult time of it.  Every ship class requires counter tactics, subs are no different.  If that sub that is annoying you wasn't there, there'd be another ship that you'd have to use counter tactics against - the only difference is that you're used to those tactics.

49 minutes ago, H_87A_2CU said:

So in 0.11.6 they can get to places faster on the surface, just as fast underwater (2kts decrease is nothing), turn better along with fast ping reload, and fast torpedo reload with homing.

So 2kts decrease is nothing, but 2kts increase is worth complaining about?  The changes they're making are an overall nerf to the survivability of competent sub players, and reduce their ability to operate behind enemy lines.  This reduces the effect of the better sub players, while having minimal effect on poor sub players.  It's a pretty reasonable change, given the skill gap seems excessive for subs on live.  Skill gaps do tend to be a problem with stealth based units, because they tend to be easy to kill when they give up their stealth.  It makes sense that WG is keeping an eye on this.

I think the best advice to you is the age old WoWs advice - if you're struggling against something, go and play it yourself.  Play a hundred sub games and you'll soon work out what their strengths and weaknesses are.  You'll know exactly how their concealment works, and tactics to counter their abilities.  Of course you could just take the alternate route, which is to complain about them from a position of ignorance, but do you really want to do that to yourself (and the rest of us)?

On the overall question of subs in the game, I used to be ambivalent towards them, and didn't really enjoy previous iterations from last year.  They just didn't quite work right.  The changes they've made to how dive time works, and the choices they have introduced with the two different torp types, as well as the different way concealment works now, have completely changed the way subs fit in the game for the better.  They genuinely feel like they fit now, both to play and to play against, in my experience of doing both of those things.  I've had some great and exciting interactions with subs since they introduced the new systems - but only once I worked out how they actually functioned.  Are they balanced?  They probably need a little more fine tuning of numbers, but the basic systems are well balanced right now.  They are all but ready for release in my opinion.  Coming from a position of not being interested in the slightest at the thought of their introduction, I am now very much looking forward to their release, and hope it happens as soon as possible.  They are a massive breath of fresh air for this game.

[Moggytwo]

1 hour ago, H_87A_2CU said:

(or is it they've finally found the level their skills finally work at)

Oh I forgot to respond to this.  My apologies.

You're onto me, I'm an awful player at this game, but ever since I started playing subs a bit, I have discovered I'm amazing!  Thank you submarines, and thank you WG for making up for my incompetence with this super easy class to play!

[S4pp3R]

I can't wait to see what H says next... 

 

I should note, I do mostly agree with him Moggy

[H_87A_2CU]

Ahhh Hello Moggy

Sorry mate, but recently every change to the game, especially Subs  it feels you come on here with "everything is awesome" type attitude, I'm sorry but it does come across like you're around just to sell the party line.  But ;leaving that be, in a nutshell, here's my problems

DD/CV/CA/CL/BB - DCP used after being hit - Can't stop the enemy ship hitting me, except to try and dodge, or angle right, DCP to deal with fire or flood...............SS I have to use DCP before and if I'm unlucky after its attacks.......... only class to have this problem - Your answer acceptable

BB/CA/CL/DD and even CV - To hit a target need to aim well and hope that target doesn't dodge to well..............SS single ping target has hope, double ping, not so much......oh and I can update/relock every 8-12 secs.......... so DCP usage above might save the ship - again your answer acceptable and get Gudz just dodge (pretty lame answer but the keeper can have it)

Re-ping/reload. - Most Ships DCP's last 5-15 secs or so (some more than this, some less) - Submarine reload 1 min or so........can ping every 10 secs or there about..........if a ship uses DCP to mitigate he's very likely to wear the next salvo (plus the fires because the Sub in theory is communicating to his team that the XXX just popped his DCP)...your answer thats ok - just get gudz and dodge (pretty much a poor answer, won't add to the fire but I'd expect this answer from a 12 year old).

Speed........Submarines are faster on the surface than quite a number of ships - hence the 2kts increase complaint....but I forget, in your eyes that's a nerf.........sorry my bad........Slowing them underwater, that's good, seeing they are now getting into the battle quicker and have guided weapons, then maybe they should slow down a little under water.........but  according to you "The changes they're making are an overall nerf to the suitability of competent sub players, and reduce their ability to operate behind enemy lines.  This reduces the effect of the better sub players, while having minimal effect on poor sub players".........oh I'm so sorry, its a class with more advantages than most (stealth, guided weapons, heavy hitting, can mostly hide etc.......) but the poor good players are suffering for their game play...........so sorry - my bad.

To the "think the best advice to you is the age old WoWs advice - if you're struggling against something, go and play it yourself.  Play a hundred sub games and you'll soon work out what their strengths and weaknesses are.  You'll know exactly how their concealment works, and tactics to counter their abilities.  Of course you could just take the alternate route, which is to complain about them from a position of ignorance, but do you really want to do that to yourself (and the rest of us)? " - Nope can't do that I'm sorry - I have principles - when people lie to me I don't take to kindly to it.........but if you're happy to accept someone lying to you, then that's ok, that's your choice.

H