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Atlanta - HE/AP

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Beta Tester
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When, why and where do I use HE/AP?

 

What calibre of guns are suited for AP? Is the Atlanta's 5 inch guns suitable, for example?

 

What determines penetration and how does armour counter the penetration?

 

If I have 100mm penetration but the enemy has 120mm of armour, is he completely invulnerable to my AP rounds?

 

How does HE work if it doesn't penetrate?

 

Since armour is supposed to deflect shots away, why doesn't HE get deflected away? Is it like an Airburst round?

 

If it is like an Airburst round, shouldn't HE strip away armour from ships?

Edited by Arthurians007

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Alpha Tester
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Many Small caliber Gun available to be used for AA

The current system make your Small main guns (DD and some Cruiser) able to shoot/give damage to enemy Planes while being able to use to shoot enemy ship

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When, why and where do I use HE/AP? and What calibre of guns are suited for AP? Is the Atlanta's 5 inch guns suitable, for example?

 

These two questions are best answered together.

 

If you're using destroyer sized guns (on destroyers at the Atlanta), you should pretty much use HE all the time because its performance is more reliable in the current game.  AP is worth it in these guns if you're at very short range (less than 5km) and you're a really good shot (and have low ping) if you're good enough to be able to target a ship's "citadel" area.  You can also get some funny results against low tier cruisers using AP by plunging fire from long range (the Gremyaschy is infamous for this).

 

If you're using 6-inch guns (~ 150mm) on the spamboats like the Mogami or Cleveland, HE is basically your best friend since you can use it as a "one size fits all" ammunition type.

 

If you're using 8-inch guns (~ 200mm) like on most of the higher-tier cruisers, the general rule is to use HE most of the time; they're the most reliable round against destroyers and battleships will usually bounce your APs anyway.  Against other cruisers (and other cruisers only) if your opponent starts showing his broadside to you, lead your fire so you hit in the dead-center of his ship at the waterline and you'll get citadel penetrations which can very quickly turn the battle in your favor.  If you're not that good of a shot, you can stick to HE.

 

If you're using battleship guns (300mm and beyond), you're pretty much best off using AP most of the time.  HE is better against destroyers, tangling with destroyers with battleships is something you should avoid doing because DDs are hard to hit.  Many battleship players like to spam HE at long range because of inaccuracy at the chance to start fires, however AP can get citadel penetrations from plunging (long-range) fire on a lucky hit.

 

What determines penetration and how does armour counter the penetration?

 

Angle of impact and location of the hit.  That's why you see battleship players turning in towards their opponent when their opponent fires - it raises up their belt (side) armor towards the enemy which is where the armor is the thickest, and often makes it impossible to hit the deck armor, which is pretty thin on most battleships.  The trick is mostly useful only in battleships however - most other ships, even cruisers, have too thin of armor for that trick to matter, you're simply better off doing whatever you can to be hit by fewer shells.

 

You can also make AP shells (in particular) bounce off by having the impact be at too acute of an angle.  If you notice your AP shells bouncing off of cruisers and you're in a battleship, it's likely that the cruiser was steaming straight at you - AP hitting the ship's nose are likely to simply bounce off.

 

If I have 100mm penetration but the enemy has 120mm of armour, is he completely invulnerable to my AP rounds?

 

Yes.  But remember, no ship has 120mm over the entire ship.  However, hitting areas that are more weakly armored may be very difficult.

 

 

Since armour is supposed to deflect shots away, why doesn't HE get deflected away? Is it like an Airburst round?

 

Naval rounds are a bit different from land shells.  Essentially all naval shells of the period were HE (High-Explosive) or APHE (Armor-Piercing High-Explosive).  HE shells were fuzed to explode on impact and have thin shell casings to maximize the size of their explosive payload.  APHE shells have an armor piercing tip and less explosive because of that, however, they are fuzed to explode a fraction of a second after impact, whereupon they hopefully have penetrated inside the ship before exploding within the target.

 

If it is like an Airburst round, shouldn't HE strip away armour from ships?

 

It's not an airburst round.

 

Even if it were, it wouldn't strip armor away; that'd be like shooting a shotgun at a tank and expecting armor to be stripped away.

 

But spalling and fragmenting is still a danger from impact-fuzed HE.  However, it's important to remember that people back then are as smart as they are now; their tools aren't as good as ours now, but they still had brains to think with and eyes to see.  They were aware of these problems.  Naval armor has gone through a lot of evolution. It isn't just "slabs of thick steel plating" for a long time.  Essentially, people doing research for armor have known for centuries that you need both flexibility and hardness in armor.  If armor is too hard, it becomes brittle (this why nobody uses slabs of synthetic diamond as armor - diamond is very hard but brittle); it might resist the initial impact but then it'll crack and shatter.  At the opposite end of the scale you have flexible armor but that makes the armor "soft" and less able to resist penetration by armor piercing shells but it can deform better from impacts without cracking.  The ideal armor plate for warships was one where the surface of the armor is very hard, but much of the inner thickness of the armor is softer steel that is able to distribute the force of the impact to reduce cracking.  The first examples of this kind of dual-phase armor was literally to have a steel (or iron) plate with a thick wooden backing.  As guns improved, this quickly became ineffective.  So they wanted it in a single steel plate, leading to "face-hardened" armor, where the "face" of the armor (the outside) is very hard, but the inside of the plate is softer steel.  A number of methods were tried and there were a lot of failures along the way (usually the "hard" steel would crack and separate from the "soft" steel if it weren't made right), but by WW2 they had a pretty workable system in place.  By the end of the war and the start of the Cold War, missiles combined with advances in explosives technology created warheads which could overcome or outright avoid any thickness of armor had been developed so ships these days don't bother carrying much armor.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Edited by nyankochan

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Beta Tester
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When, why and where do I use HE/AP? and What calibre of guns are suited for AP? Is the Atlanta's 5 inch guns suitable, for example?

 

These two questions are best answered together.

 

If you're using destroyer sized guns (on destroyers at the Atlanta), you should pretty much use HE all the time because its performance is more reliable in the current game.  AP is worth it in these guns if you're at very short range (less than 5km) and you're a really good shot (and have low ping) if you're good enough to be able to target a ship's "citadel" area.  You can also get some funny results against low tier cruisers using AP by plunging fire from long range (the Gremyaschy is infamous for this).

 

If you're using 6-inch guns (~ 150mm) on the spamboats like the Mogami or Cleveland, HE is basically your best friend since you can use it as a "one size fits all" ammunition type.

 

If you're using 8-inch guns (~ 200mm) like on most of the higher-tier cruisers, the general rule is to use HE most of the time; they're the most reliable round against destroyers and battleships will usually bounce your APs anyway.  Against other cruisers (and other cruisers only) if your opponent starts showing his broadside to you, lead your fire so you hit in the dead-center of his ship at the waterline and you'll get citadel penetrations which can very quickly turn the battle in your favor.  If you're not that good of a shot, you can stick to HE.

 

If you're using battleship guns (300mm and beyond), you're pretty much best off using AP most of the time.  HE is better against destroyers, tangling with destroyers with battleships is something you should avoid doing because DDs are hard to hit.  Many battleship players like to spam HE at long range because of inaccuracy at the chance to start fires, however AP can get citadel penetrations from plunging (long-range) fire on a lucky hit.

 

What determines penetration and how does armour counter the penetration?

 

Angle of impact and location of the hit.  That's why you see battleship players turning in towards their opponent when their opponent fires - it raises up their belt (side) armor towards the enemy which is where the armor is the thickest, and often makes it impossible to hit the deck armor, which is pretty thin on most battleships.  The trick is mostly useful only in battleships however - most other ships, even cruisers, have too thin of armor for that trick to matter, you're simply better off doing whatever you can to be hit by fewer shells.

 

You can also make AP shells (in particular) bounce off by having the impact be at too acute of an angle.  If you notice your AP shells bouncing off of cruisers and you're in a battleship, it's likely that the cruiser was steaming straight at you - AP hitting the ship's nose are likely to simply bounce off.

 

If I have 100mm penetration but the enemy has 120mm of armour, is he completely invulnerable to my AP rounds?

 

Yes.  But remember, no ship has 120mm over the entire ship.  However, hitting areas that are more weakly armored may be very difficult.

 

Since armour is supposed to deflect shots away, why doesn't HE get deflected away? Is it like an Airburst round?

 

Naval rounds are a bit different from land shells.  Essentially all naval shells of the period were HE (High-Explosive) or APHE (Armor-Piercing High-Explosive).  HE shells were fuzed to explode on impact and have thin shell casings to maximize the size of their explosive payload.  APHE shells have an armor piercing tip and less explosive because of that, however, they are fuzed to explode a fraction of a second after impact, whereupon they hopefully have penetrated inside the ship before exploding within the target.

 

If it is like an Airburst round, shouldn't HE strip away armour from ships?

 

It's not an airburst round.

 

Even if it were, it wouldn't strip armor away; that'd be like shooting a shotgun at a tank and expecting armor to be stripped away.

 

But spalling and fragmenting is still a danger from impact-fuzed HE.  However, it's important to remember that people back then are as smart as they are now; their tools aren't as good as ours now, but they still had brains to think with and eyes to see.  They were aware of these problems.  Naval armor has gone through a lot of evolution. It isn't just "slabs of thick steel plating" for a long time.  Essentially, people doing research for armor have known for centuries that you need both flexibility and hardness in armor.  If armor is too hard, it becomes brittle (this why nobody uses slabs of synthetic diamond as armor - diamond is very hard but brittle); it might resist the initial impact but then it'll crack and shatter.  At the opposite end of the scale you have flexible armor but that makes the armor "soft" and less able to resist penetration by armor piercing shells but it can deform better from impacts without cracking.  The ideal armor plate for warships was one where the surface of the armor is very hard, but much of the inner thickness of the armor is softer steel that is able to distribute the force of the impact to reduce cracking.  The first examples of this kind of dual-phase armor was literally to have a steel (or iron) plate with a thick wooden backing.  As guns improved, this quickly became ineffective.  So they wanted it in a single steel plate, leading to "face-hardened" armor, where the "face" of the armor (the outside) is very hard, but the inside of the plate is softer steel.  A number of methods were tried and there were a lot of failures along the way (usually the "hard" steel would crack and separate from the "soft" steel if it weren't made right), but by WW2 they had a pretty workable system in place.  By the end of the war and the start of the Cold War, missiles combined with advances in explosives technology created warheads which could overcome or outright avoid any thickness of armor had been developed so ships these days don't bother carrying much armor.

 

Hope that helps.

 

That was a very detailed and clear explanation, thank you for clearing up my queries!

 

07

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Beta Tester
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AP rounds should bounce less when you are in a BB firing at a cruiser with her bow facing you.

 

25yzjtg.png

 

 

I see, hmm I would imagine large calibre round (400mm) to completely pierce through a DD from bow to stern like a Shish kebab, looks like it now blows up inside

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When, why and where do I use HE/AP? and What calibre of guns are suited for AP? Is the Atlanta's 5 inch guns suitable, for example?

 

These two questions are best answered together.

 

If you're using destroyer sized guns (on destroyers at the Atlanta), you should pretty much use HE all the time because its performance is more reliable in the current game.  AP is worth it in these guns if you're at very short range (less than 5km) and you're a really good shot (and have low ping) if you're good enough to be able to target a ship's "citadel" area.  You can also get some funny results against low tier cruisers using AP by plunging fire from long range (the Gremyaschy is infamous for this).

 

If you're using 6-inch guns (~ 150mm) on the spamboats like the Mogami or Cleveland, HE is basically your best friend since you can use it as a "one size fits all" ammunition type.

 

If you're using 8-inch guns (~ 200mm) like on most of the higher-tier cruisers, the general rule is to use HE most of the time; they're the most reliable round against destroyers and battleships will usually bounce your APs anyway.  Against other cruisers (and other cruisers only) if your opponent starts showing his broadside to you, lead your fire so you hit in the dead-center of his ship at the waterline and you'll get citadel penetrations which can very quickly turn the battle in your favor.  If you're not that good of a shot, you can stick to HE.

 

If you're using battleship guns (300mm and beyond), you're pretty much best off using AP most of the time.  HE is better against destroyers, tangling with destroyers with battleships is something you should avoid doing because DDs are hard to hit.  Many battleship players like to spam HE at long range because of inaccuracy at the chance to start fires, however AP can get citadel penetrations from plunging (long-range) fire on a lucky hit.

 

iChase said he uses AP almost exclusively except for when targeting an enemy DD, thoughts?

 

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iChase said he uses AP almost exclusively except for when targeting an enemy DD, thoughts?

 

 

Would you risk an overpen and doing 300 damage or doing full, or almost full, HE damage?

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I see, hmm I would imagine large calibre round (400mm) to completely pierce through a DD from bow to stern like a Shish kebab, looks like it now blows up inside

 

Against DDs it should still overpenetrate. But against a CA the shell is more likely to get stuck in the ship or in the citadel without overpenetrating. So always use HE against a DD as AP will almost always overpen it.

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Would you risk an overpen and doing 300 damage or doing full, or almost full, HE damage?

 

You can't do almost full damage with HE. At most is x0.5 against DD's boilers (apparently, their Citadels had been removed since 0.3.1, so they get a different damage calculation compared to other classes for hitting the critical parts). For other ships, a penetrating HE deals x0.33 damage. The only way to deal full damage with HE is with a citadel hit.

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You can't do almost full damage with HE. At most is x0.5 against DD's boilers (apparently, their Citadels had been removed since 0.3.1, so they get a different damage calculation compared to other classes for hitting the critical parts). For other ships, a penetrating HE deals x0.33 damage. The only way to deal full damage with HE is with a citadel hit.

 

Ohhh interesting. Thanks for the intel :honoring:

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You can't do almost full damage with HE. At most is x0.5 against DD's boilers (apparently, their Citadels had been removed since 0.3.1, so they get a different damage calculation compared to other classes for hitting the critical parts). For other ships, a penetrating HE deals x0.33 damage. The only way to deal full damage with HE is with a citadel hit.

 

Stealth patching! Other than the other ship part, since I've done HE cit pens before and they do full damage.

 

HE on DDs though, I can do almost max damage using HE on another DD. Haven't tested it this patch yet.

Edited by Umidoori

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Stealth patching!

 

It took me forever to realize that no one has ever got a citadel hit on a DD since 0.3.1. Had to ask a dev to confirm their absence.

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It took me forever to realize that no one has ever got a citadel hit on a DD since 0.3.1. Had to ask a dev to confirm their absence.

 

Makes you wonder why they never release any of these important information to the players.

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Makes you wonder why they never release any of these important information to the players.

 

*Look at Torpedo bomber*

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use HE on most ship BB/CA/DD and CV  while use AP on specific ship like IJN CA beyond tier 5 as they have soft armor that can be easily penetrated  even by 6 inch guns.

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At the moment I'm using AP against everything except against DDs, that I use HE instead since HE tends to knock out modules on DDs

 

In those ships with the 127mm guns (The Sims and Atlanta), I'm still testing AP/HE

 

I'm leaning towards HE for long range (maybe someone can define what long range is for me?) and AP for short range (maybe under 4km?) since AP loses penetration over distance

 

Is there armour thickness information and calibre penetration information available in game?

 

How will I know if a shell will penetrate a hull?

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At the moment I'm using AP against everything except against DDs, that I use HE instead since HE tends to knock out modules on DDs

 

In those ships with the 127mm guns (The Sims and Atlanta), I'm still testing AP/HE

 

I'm leaning towards HE for long range (maybe someone can define what long range is for me?) and AP for short range (maybe under 4km?) since AP loses penetration over distance

 

Is there armour thickness information and calibre penetration information available in game?

 

How will I know if a shell will penetrate a hull?

 

Long Range Fire also called Plunging Fire

in this game is everything above any DD range is likely to be called Plunging fire

Plunging fire most effective when Hitting ship Deck

But currently the RNG force you to come closer for more accurate shot:popcorn: 

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[BLUMR]
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Hey guys 

I wanted to know if the Atlanta's AP can pen a BB's armour at really close range?

Let's say about <6 km

Thx in advance

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Super Tester
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Hey guys 

I wanted to know if the Atlanta's AP can pen a BB's armour at really close range?

Let's say about <6 km

Thx in advance

 

I'm surprised you want to take a glass canon that close to a BB, you will die from the secondaries alone. And at that close range, just torp the target.

 

AP will work on BB if they show flat side which they won't (always consider your enemy to be decent) OR they have large superstructure like Colorado, New Mexico etc. But still, use torpedoes while you have time, much better and you will probably die from first salvo anyway at that close range. Cause you know, people hate Atlanta so much, they will never ignore you.

Edited by icy_phoenix

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