When is WG going to fix match maker?

[Storm_Khan]

Playing Brawls here. So the MM decides to give 2 DD to the other team and an extra radar as well.

The previous game to this had the other team with 2 divs while ours had none.

WTF is so screwed with the MM? It's like WG deliberately made the thing to have the teams be lopsided very frequently.

[SgtSullyNZ]

1 hour ago, Storm_Khan said:

Playing Brawls here. So the MM decides to give 2 DD to the other team and an extra radar as well.

The previous game to this had the other team with 2 divs while ours had none.

WTF is so screwed with the MM? It's like WG deliberately made the thing to have the teams be lopsided very frequently.

For a start this not a brawl, t10 random. When they figure what Brawl means then maybe we can make some progress.

MM only need to be plus/minus 1 max. When that is done then the game can start to see some balance, in games, and in the economy.

 

[Storm_Khan]

1 hour ago, SgtSullyNZ said:

For a start this not a brawl, t10 random. When they figure what Brawl means then maybe we can make some progress.

MM only need to be plus/minus 1 max. When that is done then the game can start to see some balance, in games, and in the economy.

I don't think the type of game makes any difference. Even if this was a Random game it is still unbalanced in the distribution of ships to teams.

[dejiko_nyo]

According to an insider, never because "it is coded to give a "balanced" experience".

Technically, your team "does" have a range advantage with the tomatoes, but the 2 schadenfreudes are kinda just being extra cruisers. With adequate kite and run, your team can win.

What was the final outcome @Storm_Khan?

[Don72]

Balance means 50% of the time you will be on the "advantaged" team and 50% you will be on the "disadvantaged" side.

[Mechfori]

each and everyone of us know +/-1MM should be the way to go, well Wee Gee knows it too, but their MM is never about balancing the game , notice the recently announced changes to Sub , Superships, etc .. they change MM so that players can simply wait less to get into the game , they were always after the player count instead .. And of course the whole meta at high tier is even worse cause of how WG spec the difference between T8, T9, and T10 and CV add in complexity but SS kind of ruin it all, and now Supership.

This is a game, so by definition of  Balancing each and every player , whatever type of ship he/she pilot should be given fair the same chance to play, to excel, and to be rewarded just , but of course that is not the case , and that is why we keep seeing so many BB in the queue and these days less and less Cruisers .. When this game start way back there was only 3 type of ships and many of the game mechanics we had to day is not there either .. but even those earl games, balance can be had and players know to team and group and battle line to fight and to fight for victory ...

The ill and faulted mangling of many of the original concept , favoring one type over the others , and then introducing types and mechanism that basically nullify some and some others , send the game into this downward trend, and no less the reward system that do not recognize proper tactical play but reward only ever damage dealing, and then of course they release even more Damage Dealing cenric ships and well .. if you play the teamplay you end up almost always last on the team and often get bankrupt while at the same time the one who only play to farm get rewarded mighty .. guess why people now refuse to even bother ...

MM is only the tip of the iceberg

[Sambo_Cigars]

I was just in a co-op battle playing the cruiser München, my first battle of the day, well, there was a Fletcher in my squadron, there was also a Mogador and a Kitikaze as well as a tier 8 carrier. The result was quite predictable, I didn't even earn enough base XP to clear the first daily combat mission. 

[Sambo_Cigars]

7 hours ago, SgtSullyNZ said:

For a start this not a brawl, t10 random. When they figure what Brawl means then maybe we can make some progress.

MM only need to be plus/minus 1 max. When that is done then the game can start to see some balance, in games, and in the economy.

 

Exactly! In a 3 vs 3 or 2 vs 2 format, you focus on one of the ships in the opposing team and you go after that one. Which ship you should focus on, depends on the capabilities of the ships in your team and in the opposing team. This is what makes brawls fun. But a 9 vs 9 brawl is just a random or ranked battle.

[Jayde2405]

I guess the two DDs  were in a division...

[SIIaa]

6 hours ago, Don72 said:

Balance means 50% of the time you will be on the "advantaged" team and 50% you will be on the "disadvantaged" side.

This guy gets it. 

[Puggsley]

11 hours ago, Mechfori said:

This is a game, so by definition of  Balancing each and every player , whatever type of ship he/she pilot should be given fair the same chance to play, to excel, and to be rewarded just , 

The ill and faulted mangling of many of the original concept , favoring one type over the others , and then introducing types and mechanism that basically nullify some and some others , send the game into this downward trend, and no less the reward system that do not recognize proper tactical play but reward only ever damage dealing, and then of course they release even more Damage Dealing cenric ships and well .. if you play the teamplay you end up almost always last on the team and often get bankrupt while at the same time the one who only play to farm get rewarded mighty .. guess why people now refuse to even bother ...

Everyone does get the same chance to play and excel. Who does not get this chance?

I do agree that the reward system is too heavily focused on doing damage.

[Mechfori]

24 minutes ago, Puggsley said:

Everyone does get the same chance to play and excel. Who does not get this chance?

I do agree that the reward system is too heavily focused on doing damage.

that goes way back , IJN torpedo are still over nerfed upon detection ( but not given the speed nor the reload to give them the chance to even getting consistent hit ) you can say pretty much the same towards many old tech tree torp whether on DD or Cruisers , Cruisers at high tier are ranged out cause BB are now given range that just range out and yet still penetrate ad had the dispersion close enough , given fair chance means given the ships their proper offensive and defensive play and may are deny them one way or both when gimmick takes over and favored over the core defensive and offensive measure .. not to mention addition of so many overmatching caliber .. but the armor on Cruisers still see no improvement when BB's offensive power keep edging up , fire prevention do not get improved after so many HE spamming guns too , Torp hit still not given proper flodding chance ( should be 100% on all torps )

Old Tech Tree ships are the one most affected but even newer ones are not excluded , PA Cruiser's abysmal short gun range even compared to their own peer counter part CL are prime example , the other side of it well ships like Thunderer or Petro , and AA , well AA ... now that they had both CV and SS in the same game, that pretty much exclude the Cruisers and DD from even trying to forward cause they pretty much WILL BE SPOTTED no matter what and when they do get spotted their BB are too far back unable to do any fire suppression and fire cover. BB camp, but Cruisers are forced to camp and DD are now joining the rank .. and then other than the big guns able to do their offense at 18, 20+KM , the others well they can't

All excluding and un-counterable counter measure like Radar and Hydro nullify the threat of ambush and force CL / DD to abandon their role cause they know now it will not work most of the time and no less they do not had the armor nor the HP to take a fight against the now even more fierce CQC ( if ever they get into one ) , CA are no better off cause they simply are targeted by the now able BB at range the CA cannot even return fire

BB are not left out , the inclusion of so many HE spamming ships is no joke but why all the HE spamming cause the prior mentioned and the ill implemented AP mechanism together with even more radical Armor , & Range that just nullify the penetration .. BB can safely fire from distance and still benefit, no need to forward then they will , which mean no more battle line, no more proper group and team at the front ( nor even at the back ) And talk about Brawlling .. whoever even intentionally go brawl these days when that is an ensured single way ticket to the port

CV and SS are pretty much given reign to damage dealing and surface ships are all not given proper ASW, nor AA , keep seeing a squad of planes able to deliver attack runs even against a group of over lapping AA coverage of 4 or 5 ships, and those are not even bad AA ships, does this made sense. SS are given homing specifically to to counter the one that should counter them the DD and Cruisers ( specifically CL ) , and can keep Ping and Ping and DCP reload is a joke when you face a Sub that you cannot detect, know super speed homing torp incoming and ping keep coming in continuously

 

To be given fair chance , at current reward system , means give all the type the same capable, effective, efficient FARMING and DAMAGE DEALING , and only BB , CV are kind of given that, Cruisers and gunboat DD ( fair bit ) lesser down the ladder, and CL coming third, when torpedo boat DD pretty much last with SS somewhere in the middle , like it or not yes balance ( right now ) would call for that cause Damage Dealing is the only core reward that matters .. until WG change that- but will they ?????

 

if you play high tier today and you do not get in fair share of damage dealing , even if you do play the pay tactically its almost a guarantee that you will get bankrupt , is this even the right approach when WG keep emphasizing TEAMPLAY .. the one who do teamplay will be the one who got penalized for just that, doing the teamplay .. wager the consequence !!

 

 

[Storm_Khan]

17 hours ago, dejiko_nyo said:

According to an insider, never because "it is coded to give a "balanced" experience".

Technically, your team "does" have a range advantage with the tomatoes, but the 2 schadenfreudes are kinda just being extra cruisers. With adequate kite and run, your team can win.

What was the final outcome @Storm_Khan?

Final outcome was a loss because our ships were constantly being spotted before ours could see theirs. Is that a surprise? I think they had 5 ships still alive at the end.

[Storm_Khan]

16 hours ago, Don72 said:

Balance means 50% of the time you will be on the "advantaged" team and 50% you will be on the "disadvantaged" side.

Theoretically that should be the case. But how many times have you had major loss streaks of like 9 or ten games in a row? Or even loss streaks of 4-5 in a row?

It seems to be quite frequent.

[Storm_Khan]

11 hours ago, Jayde2405 said:

I guess the two DDs  were in a division...

No, they were not.

[Storm_Khan]

2 hours ago, Puggsley said:

Everyone does get the same chance to play and excel. Who does not get this chance?

I do agree that the reward system is too heavily focused on doing damage.

Only partially agree with you. But with the fact that WoWS is significantly more team play reliant than many games it does mean getting a good team wins or loses a game. You get a good player teamed up with a bad team and the player may excel in his/her game but the team still ends up losing is a very frequent occurrence.

In Ranked games this is even more pronounced where you may be a unicum player but teamed with a sucky team then your chances of getting a win to go up in rank is significantly compromised. Then to have to do this multiple times in a row and your chances of getting to rank 1 is actually quite low since if the outcome is truly random then you should be winning and losing every other game approximately. This means you get nowhere.

[Grygus_Triss]

58 minutes ago, Storm_Khan said:

Theoretically that should be the case. But how many times have you had major loss streaks of like 9 or ten games in a row? Or even loss streaks of 4-5 in a row?

It seems to be quite frequent.

How many times had you had win streaks of 9 or 10, or 4 or 5?

[Puggsley]

5 hours ago, Storm_Khan said:

Only partially agree with you. But with the fact that WoWS is significantly more team play reliant than many games it does mean getting a good team wins or loses a game. You get a good player teamed up with a bad team and the player may excel in his/her game but the team still ends up losing is a very frequent occurrence.

In Ranked games this is even more pronounced where you may be a unicum player but teamed with a sucky team then your chances of getting a win to go up in rank is significantly compromised. Then to have to do this multiple times in a row and your chances of getting to rank 1 is actually quite low since if the outcome is truly random then you should be winning and losing every other game approximately. This means you get nowhere.

Yep its team based, and you can have short term positive or negative outperformance.

But over the longer term its much down to you - assuming you only play solo. Playing in a div, either netter than average or worse than average will help or hinder you in the long term.

Your average performance is not based on games where you are teamed with all bad or all good players - as you point out everyone gets those and there is pretty much nothing you can do. Its your ability to swing games which are close. The difference between 52% and 48% is being a good enough player to help your team win just 2 close games out of 100.

That can be positioning a little bit better, using your armour a bit better, aiming a bit better, watching the minimap and helping kill a critical ship. And anyone can do that.

You get somewhere in ranked by being a better than average player. Not everyone will get to rank 1, the chance of you getting to rank 1 depends almost entirely on your skill. The outcome in these games is not truly random because your individual skill matters. Better players advance because they help their teams win more often, and because they are more likely to perform well and save a star. 

[Puggsley]

22 hours ago, Don72 said:

Balance means 50% of the time you will be on the "advantaged" team and 50% you will be on the "disadvantaged" side.

No, no, no.

Balance means over the longer term you get the average quality team-mates - but only for solo players.

Divs sway it significantly depending on if you div with better or worse than average players, because you are forcing yourself to have better or worse than average teams while you div.

Your individual skill will determine if your team wins more often or loses more often over the longer term. 

[dejiko_nyo]

11 hours ago, Storm_Khan said:

Final outcome was a loss because our ships were constantly being spotted before ours could see theirs. Is that a surprise? I think they had 5 ships still alive at the end.

I presume your BBs were just running away afraid of being hit by dds instead of trying to focus down their bbs? Because it is winnable except you have to be "Who dares wins".

But as put by many people, it is a team game and it is heavily reliant on your team being sensible.

[Mechfori]

14 minutes ago, dejiko_nyo said:

I presume your BBs were just running away afraid of being hit by dds instead of trying to focus down their bbs? Because it is winnable except you have to be "Who dares wins".

But as put by many people, it is a team game and it is heavily reliant on your team being sensible.

well , quite frankly there's the dilemma , so should any single individual players play the play , even knowing the risk is high and sacrifice likely , in theory if it help to or even win the game for the team its worth it, but the problem lies not in this sensibility , its in human nature that on display games after games , there were and there are players who are willing to do that but often than not they are faced with the harsh reality that the majority of teamates who would only care none , in short sacrifice and harsh risk taking team play are not and will not be return in due , games are lost not because those who play the play , who  " dare to win " fights it , but the others on the team had no guts to carry on .. for majority of players its all about the farming, the not getting shoot, not getting kill , the fighting its always somebody else's concern 

 

if game after game one is faced with this , would it be setting despair upon the player .. would it even promote the so call TEAMPLAY .. and shall we say the game mechanics actually favor the selfishness and penalize the TEAMPLAY players

 

Being sensible in this case might not even matter

[Puggsley]

23 hours ago, Mechfori said:

that goes way back , IJN torpedo are still over nerfed upon detection ( but not given the speed nor the reload to give them the chance to even getting consistent hit ) you can say pretty much the same towards many old tech tree torp whether on DD or Cruisers , Cruisers at high tier are ranged out cause BB are now given range that just range out and yet still penetrate ad had the dispersion close enough , given fair chance means given the ships their proper offensive and defensive play and may are deny them one way or both when gimmick takes over and favored over the core defensive and offensive measure .. not to mention addition of so many overmatching caliber .. but the armor on Cruisers still see no improvement when BB's offensive power keep edging up , fire prevention do not get improved after so many HE spamming guns too , Torp hit still not given proper flodding chance ( should be 100% on all torps )

Old Tech Tree ships are the one most affected but even newer ones are not excluded , PA Cruiser's abysmal short gun range even compared to their own peer counter part CL are prime example , the other side of it well ships like Thunderer or Petro , and AA , well AA ... now that they had both CV and SS in the same game, that pretty much exclude the Cruisers and DD from even trying to forward cause they pretty much WILL BE SPOTTED no matter what and when they do get spotted their BB are too far back unable to do any fire suppression and fire cover. BB camp, but Cruisers are forced to camp and DD are now joining the rank .. and then other than the big guns able to do their offense at 18, 20+KM , the others well they can't

All excluding and un-counterable counter measure like Radar and Hydro nullify the threat of ambush and force CL / DD to abandon their role cause they know now it will not work most of the time and no less they do not had the armor nor the HP to take a fight against the now even more fierce CQC ( if ever they get into one ) , CA are no better off cause they simply are targeted by the now able BB at range the CA cannot even return fire

BB are not left out , the inclusion of so many HE spamming ships is no joke but why all the HE spamming cause the prior mentioned and the ill implemented AP mechanism together with even more radical Armor , & Range that just nullify the penetration .. BB can safely fire from distance and still benefit, no need to forward then they will , which mean no more battle line, no more proper group and team at the front ( nor even at the back ) And talk about Brawlling .. whoever even intentionally go brawl these days when that is an ensured single way ticket to the port

CV and SS are pretty much given reign to damage dealing and surface ships are all not given proper ASW, nor AA , keep seeing a squad of planes able to deliver attack runs even against a group of over lapping AA coverage of 4 or 5 ships, and those are not even bad AA ships, does this made sense. SS are given homing specifically to to counter the one that should counter them the DD and Cruisers ( specifically CL ) , and can keep Ping and Ping and DCP reload is a joke when you face a Sub that you cannot detect, know super speed homing torp incoming and ping keep coming in continuously

 

To be given fair chance , at current reward system , means give all the type the same capable, effective, efficient FARMING and DAMAGE DEALING , and only BB , CV are kind of given that, Cruisers and gunboat DD ( fair bit ) lesser down the ladder, and CL coming third, when torpedo boat DD pretty much last with SS somewhere in the middle , like it or not yes balance ( right now ) would call for that cause Damage Dealing is the only core reward that matters .. until WG change that- but will they ?????

 

if you play high tier today and you do not get in fair share of damage dealing , even if you do play the pay tactically its almost a guarantee that you will get bankrupt , is this even the right approach when WG keep emphasizing TEAMPLAY .. the one who do teamplay will be the one who got penalized for just that, doing the teamplay .. wager the consequence !!

 

 

So you basically want everyone to play the same ship.

Have a look t the wiki to see how rewards are actually given out. It is weighted towards certain kinds of damage. Yes spotting doesn't get the rewards I'd like to see, but being a DD means its a lot easier to get the high reward damage, rather than farming low value damage from BBs at the back of the map.

Why do you bother to play at all if this is your thinking? Maybe find a simpler game you find more enjoyable, or play coops or operations rather than randoms or ranked.

[Storm_Khan]

On 5/10/2022 at 1:37 PM, Grygus_Triss said:

How many times had you had win streaks of 9 or 10, or 4 or 5?

I do not recall EVER having a win streak of 9-10 games in a row but I do recall a couple of times having losing streaks like that.

As for win streaks of 4-5 in a row I would say there would be more lose streaks than win streaks.

[Grygus_Triss]

12 minutes ago, Storm_Khan said:

I do not recall EVER having a win streak of 9-10 games in a row but I do recall a couple of times having losing streaks like that.

As for win streaks of 4-5 in a row I would say there would be more lose streaks than win streaks.

Hmmm. Well, all I can say, is that while MM may not be balanced on an individual game level, over a large amount of games it should balance out to reflect your own skill level.

While MM may mess around with ship types, radar, divisions and player skill, after enough games you should find yourself on overpowered teams as much as you do on underpowered teams.

Not that this does much for short term enjoyment.

And of course, Brawls are their own beast, which seems to be unbalanced by design.

Probably not what you want to hear, but unless you have a normally high W/R in randoms, it’s more likely your own skill.

[Mechfori]

6 hours ago, Puggsley said:

So you basically want everyone to play the same ship

NO what I am saying is the reward require a rework to properly recognize and properly reward tactical play , or if WG cannot, will not do it, then those non damage dealing centric ships should be buffed to give them equal consistent, effective damage dealing cause that's what's the game mechanic say its looking for and give them the equal and fair same chance to just do those numbers so they can be equally rewarded

In a fashion yes , ever sip should be damage dealing cause that is how the game mechanics specs it now .. its not me, its not you, its WG's but the players are not excused either camper and farmers made it even harder for anyone who do not farm, do not camp to do their work and in turn these work are even more risky, more prone to danger and still not paying ... when farming reward and reward a lot ... so if the game allow ( especially at high tier ) some ships to just camp and farm but not others, they deny them the fairness to be rewarded

It might not sound right and it is not right but that is how it is