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Shadow_Angel248

Torpedo Bombers and Torpedo Activation Times

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It seems a little ridiculous when torpedo bombers just come in and launch a spread almost point blank (2-3 seconds maybe) to the point where, if you're in a cruiser you cannot evade all of them and if you're in a destroyer it's a one shot kill when you get hit by one (high tier match). The game gets pretty boring when you have 1000 hp left and it's only a few minutes into the game because you cannot evade three flights that drop point blank in a Cleveland (Tier 9 game). In the Cleveland, I only shot down one TB and took 2-3 hits with, luckily, no flooding. I get that the power of carriers is meant to be strong (they did kick ass in real life), but in a game where we're meant to have fun, it just doesn't seem viable with having something that would give maximum satisfaction to one player and make the other player just leave the game entirely (I'm very tempted or I'll just go play some carriers from now on). In WoT, it is possible to sneak past or rush past the enemy team to annihilate the artillery quickly but with the size and speed for destroyers (plus the enemy fleet which can smash you to pieces if you're not careful), it seems impossible to quickly dispatch the carriers before they do serious damage to your team. As said in other threads, torpedo bombers should slow down before dropping torpedoes and not be able to launch torpedoes over islands or right after a mountain.

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Beta Tester
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Truely Understand your complaint - but do we need more nerf to CVs? Currently it is kind of Meh for both IJN CV and USN CV.

IJN CV had a pretty harsh spread and it's not easy to nuke you even with multiple squadrons - And USN one had Very limited striking power and are down to shooting down planes only.

 

Also, the Fuse time had been nerfed again and again as well as Spread nerfs. I doubt we need more nerfs.

Cruisers activating theier ability will mess up the aim of any kind of bombers and make them easy to evade. Then again if you think that because your AA is good so that you just run at a straight line it's your fault. :honoring:

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Alpha Tester
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Well, I don't see why CVs themselves being nerfed but bomber speeds on the angle off attack seem a tad fast, then suddenly doing a 180 and heading for home. Plus activating the Cruiser's AA too early and the flight just goes around you or waits for it to turn off. Maybe if they let us toggle it the ability? That way we could focus AA but lose some RoF on the guns or something? It just feels like with 3 flights all attacking one ship seems a bit iffy at the start of the game especially at high tiers where you sort of expect the battle to be drawn out and a brawling match. I don't see any problem with the spread as usually only 1 torpedo hits if you're in a bad position and ready to dodge. It's just that they seem to be launching at point blank range meaning that one torpedo will definitely hit, something you may not want at low hp. If the CV uses the right tactics, it should be able to kill you but this is just like 'fly right up to the enemy and launch torps' kind of tactic.

 

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Alpha Tester
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Well, I don't see why CVs themselves being nerfed but bomber speeds on the angle off attack seem a tad fast, then suddenly doing a 180 and heading for home. Plus activating the Cruiser's AA too early and the flight just goes around you or waits for it to turn off. Maybe if they let us toggle it the ability? That way we could focus AA but lose some RoF on the guns or something? It just feels like with 3 flights all attacking one ship seems a bit iffy at the start of the game especially at high tiers where you sort of expect the battle to be drawn out and a brawling match. I don't see any problem with the spread as usually only 1 torpedo hits if you're in a bad position and ready to dodge. It's just that they seem to be launching at point blank range meaning that one torpedo will definitely hit, something you may not want at low hp. If the CV uses the right tactics, it should be able to kill you but this is just like 'fly right up to the enemy and launch torps' kind of tactic.

 

 

You just not realize, the moment they nerf the speed of bomber. they become Unplayable since every ship in this game able to outturn the Bomber

 

Launching in point blank only available when there is no other escort around a BB, since the longer they take to Repositioning the bigger casualties before able to launch the Torp

A Cordinated Fleet With Cruisers can Immune to Air attack since not only The AA will stack but the Duration of the Barage will be much longer

and For CV player, Waiting a whole Minute to strike is pain

It take Several Minutes for a skilled BB to kill another BB

While the Skilled CV could only Kill a Full health and full Awareness BB every about 10 minutes (about 5 mins by chance if using IJN CV)

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Alpha Tester
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Nerfing the travel speed of the bomber is not what I had in mind, it's when the on the angle of attack and when in real life they would slow down so the torpedo didn't screw up on entry to the water. So basically nerf the speed a few seconds before launching torpedoes. I know that cruisers can stack the AA but coordination isn't very good in pure pub matches. What I'm complaining about is that, you start the game ready for a good fight even if you get focused by 3+ ships (totally fine because it's usually your own mistake when it happens). However, getting torpedoed really quickly doesn't really give you much entertainment even if you survive (Plus you get locked out of that ship).

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Beta Tester
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Nerfing the travel speed of the bomber is not what I had in mind, it's when the on the angle of attack and when in real life they would slow down so the torpedo didn't screw up on entry to the water. So basically nerf the speed a few seconds before launching torpedoes. I know that cruisers can stack the AA but coordination isn't very good in pure pub matches. What I'm complaining about is that, you start the game ready for a good fight even if you get focused by 3+ ships (totally fine because it's usually your own mistake when it happens). However, getting torpedoed really quickly doesn't really give you much entertainment even if you survive (Plus you get locked out of that ship).

 

This is a HARD nerf. Thats the Range where the 25mm and the Devestating 20mm Oerikons start to be effective - this Hugely reduce the effectiveness of CVs. You may be complaining how annoying CV is for BBs/CA/CLs, but Wanna try out a CV without planes? Yeah - even MORE fun than that.

 

This at least need to done with a 5~10% Health Buff to the Planes.

Edited by Alvin1020

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Alpha Tester
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This is a HARD nerf. Thats the Range where the 25mm and the Devestating 20mm Oerikons start to be effective - this Hugely reduce the effectiveness of CVs. You may be complaining how annoying CV is for BBs/CA/CLs, but Wanna try out a CV without planes? Yeah - even MORE fun than that.

 

Then it's a greater incentive to launch maximum range and using more sophisticated tactics. Yes, it is a hard nerf but you can't really kill a CV until halfway through or till the end of the game. Torpedo planes had a great amount of casualties realistically which doesn't have to be mimicked by the game, but maybe nerfing them after implementing AP dive bombers? I want CV captains to have the same amount of fun as everyone else but it's hard to enjoy being focused down by torpedo bombers before you've done anything at all. Though, at this point there just doesn't seem to be a good balance between torpedoes and their effectiveness. Or, they could just redo the match maker being +2/-2, instead of tier 6 going with tier 9s or so.

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Then it's a greater incentive to launch maximum range and using more sophisticated tactics. Yes, it is a hard nerf but you can't really kill a CV until halfway through or till the end of the game. Torpedo planes had a great amount of casualties realistically which doesn't have to be mimicked by the game, but maybe nerfing them after implementing AP dive bombers? I want CV captains to have the same amount of fun as everyone else but it's hard to enjoy being focused down by torpedo bombers before you've done anything at all. Though, at this point there just doesn't seem to be a good balance between torpedoes and their effectiveness. Or, they could just redo the match maker being +2/-2, instead of tier 6 going with tier 9s or so.

 

Then you may as well just take them out of the game right now before AP bombs come. It's So easy to evade even more so than DD's Torpedo. You Literally know it's coming like in 7~8km away.

 

Edit: And on the Increase MM - NO. It's bad enough now for the Tier difference. Imagine a Essex vs a Independence.

Edited by Alvin1020

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Righto. First up, get some carrier games under your belt to figure out how manual torpedo drops work these days.

 

Secondly, if you're letting multiple torpedo squadrons wreck you within minutes of the game starting in a Cleveland, something is terribly wrong - and it's not the fault of the torpedo bombers. Yeah, you'd be hard pressed to kill the squadrons before they get into attack range, but cruisers in general are maneuverable enough to evade torpedoes. I'm doing it fine in the Atlanta, which is probably the least maneuverable of the USN cruisers. That goes double on cruisers with the AA skill, since hitting that skill instantly causes all attack squadrons the cruiser is firing on (i.e. all attack squadrons in a ~5+km sphere) to suffer from an increased bomb/torpedo dispersion. I believe the Cleveland has that skill, no?

 

Furthermore, incoming planes are visible from a tremendous distance - frequently way out of their attack range, or even your own AA range. It's simple to turn your ship to take them head on, force them to reposition and in the process, forcing them to spend a longer time within your AA envelope, bringing down more planes in the process. Carrier captains have to constantly adjust and refine their launch point, and evasive action screws with that incredibly.

Edited by Syanda

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Alpha Tester
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Haha guess most people here haven't tried the 3.0 lagley VS Lexington, and will never get the chance to.

 

Btw The recent nerf on plane speed is only when they are under attack from fighters and CA's barrage, it dos not affect overall plane speeds.

 

Also do note that if you exceed a certain amount of AA DPS on any ship, your manual AA target will also apply the barrage effect on the planes.(looking at your lexington and high tier USN BBs "though do note that for USN BBs They do not apply the increased manual drop area but they will apply the slow effect")

Edited by Halken_Sky

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Righto. First up, get some carrier games under your belt to figure out how manual torpedo drops work these days.

 

Secondly, if you're letting multiple torpedo squadrons wreck you within minutes of the game starting in a Cleveland, something is terribly wrong - and it's not the fault of the torpedo bombers. Yeah, you'd be hard pressed to kill the squadrons before they get into attack range, but cruisers in general are maneuverable enough to evade torpedoes. I'm doing it fine in the Atlanta, which is probably the least maneuverable of the USN cruisers. That goes double on cruisers with the AA skill, since hitting that skill instantly causes all attack squadrons the cruiser is firing on (i.e. all attack squadrons in a ~5+km sphere) to suffer from an increased bomb/torpedo dispersion. I believe the Cleveland has that skill, no?

 

Furthermore, incoming planes are visible from a tremendous distance - frequently way out of their attack range, or even your own AA range. It's simple to turn your ship to take them head on, force them to reposition and in the process, forcing them to spend a longer time within your AA envelope, bringing down more planes in the process. Carrier captains have to constantly adjust and refine their launch point, and evasive action screws with that incredibly.

 

A Cleveland most probably wouldn't kill a plane until after it drops it's load, but I don't know how it goes with the planes slowing down in Barrage now. Good CV players know when to bail out of Barrage anyway, so it's almost irrelevant. 

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A Cleveland most probably wouldn't kill a plane until after it drops it's load, but I don't know how it goes with the planes slowing down in Barrage now. Good CV players know when to bail out of Barrage anyway, so it's almost irrelevant. 

 

One plane, usually. Maybe 3 if they're lucky, but the last two probably only after they drop. Less important, tbh, as long as the AA barrage is active, attack squadrons can't really hit a cruiser.

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Alpha Tester
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Then you may as well just take them out of the game right now before AP bombs come. It's So easy to evade even more so than DD's Torpedo. You Literally know it's coming like in 7~8km away.

 

Edit: And on the Increase MM - NO. It's bad enough now for the Tier difference. Imagine a Essex vs a Independence.

 

MM is +3 for my Clevelands. The problem with knowing that they're coming is wondering if they're coming for you or the BB behind you. I guess I just need more experience.

Righto. First up, get some carrier games under your belt to figure out how manual torpedo drops work these days.

 

Secondly, if you're letting multiple torpedo squadrons wreck you within minutes of the game starting in a Cleveland, something is terribly wrong - and it's not the fault of the torpedo bombers. Yeah, you'd be hard pressed to kill the squadrons before they get into attack range, but cruisers in general are maneuverable enough to evade torpedoes. I'm doing it fine in the Atlanta, which is probably the least maneuverable of the USN cruisers. That goes double on cruisers with the AA skill, since hitting that skill instantly causes all attack squadrons the cruiser is firing on (i.e. all attack squadrons in a ~5+km sphere) to suffer from an increased bomb/torpedo dispersion. I believe the Cleveland has that skill, no?

 

Furthermore, incoming planes are visible from a tremendous distance - frequently way out of their attack range, or even your own AA range. It's simple to turn your ship to take them head on, force them to reposition and in the process, forcing them to spend a longer time within your AA envelope, bringing down more planes in the process. Carrier captains have to constantly adjust and refine their launch point, and evasive action screws with that incredibly.

 

Ah okay, I thought the ability just did increased RoF and damage to squadrons in range, didn't actually read it at all (sorry). In the game I had, it was difficult to get into the open sea to easily evade the enemy bombers because 3/4 cap circles were the enemies and the one that I was going for was the only one with 1 enemy ship nearby. I have evaded torpedoes well in the past with my Cleveland, just it seems they launch them extra close now.
Edited by Shadow_Angel248

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Alpha Tester
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I have evaded torpedoes well in the past with my Cleveland, just it seems they launch them extra close now.

 

Nah, they just got more skillful and experienced as the Tier goes

Torpedo bomber squad now in this game have very UNREALISTIC Spread (Especially IJN's one)

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Nah, they just got more skillful and experienced as the Tier goes

Torpedo bomber squad now in this game have very UNREALISTIC Spread (Especially IJN's one)

 

Well he's Kinda right as IJN one Fuse time Did got reduced along with the lower of Range.

 

However, their Spread is So Wide that I don't see such a Big threat in you Cleveland Especially with all those AA. A CV player would be Stupid to go for a USN CL/CA unless neccessary.

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Well he's Kinda right as IJN one Fuse time Did got reduced along with the lower of Range.

 

However, their Spread is So Wide that I don't see such a Big threat in you Cleveland Especially with all those AA. A CV player would be Stupid to go for a USN CL/CA unless neccessary.

 

You do know that good players will fake a BB run while going for the CA or DDs. It gets positive results most of the time because they never expect it. It's also the reason why ANY plane flying my way will get me to turn, even if it's not going for me.

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Alpha Tester
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another blame CV topic   =_=" p     

why you not to play some of cv game and you will know not every one use top bomber to lanuch  perfect broadside  i think all the time is a skill player not everyone play like a pro.  yeah you want to nerf but, you don't know how CV player feel to play it ???   go play some cv and tell me how you feel it ???

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You do know that good players will fake a BB run while going for the CA or DDs. It gets positive results most of the time because they never expect it. It's also the reason why ANY plane flying my way will get me to turn, even if it's not going for me.

 

Unfortunately 90% of the people won't be as clever as you :trollface:

In Fact I rather want those Pesky TB and DB go for me - I like watching Fireworks :popcorn:

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Unfortunately 90% of the people won't be as clever as you :trollface:

In Fact I rather want those Pesky TB and DB go for me - I like watching Fireworks :popcorn:

 

Not so much.

 

 

Mogami has 133 DPS. 1 Shoukaku fighter, as I last recall, is 1620. There's 4 of them, so it's 1620 * 4.

133 DPS needs 12s to take down ONE PLANE, and there's RNG to the damage, so it can take longer, or not depending on how stupid it is.

12s * 4 = 48s, which is roughly around 44s. Bombers have more HP, so you can take the time as an average. 

I've TESTED IT IN THE TRAINING ROOM, so if you have any other arguments about plane HP/DPS/whatever, it most probably already got debunked. 

 

Oh, and before I forget, fighter DPS is -- DPS * plane count.

 

 

I've tested the Mogami against the Shoukaku and here's the weird results. We all know that Mogami is using her tier 7 AA stats, while Myoukou should be the one used in the test for accurate tier to tier balance.

 

This is Mogami without Barrage.

 

One Torpedo bomber will be shot down, or none, AFTER they drop their load and is flying back to the CV.

One Dive bomber will always get shot down because of how they drop their load.

 

Those are before the planes fly slower though in Barrage (but it doesn't matter because I didn't use it), so based on those, we can safely say that one Torpedo Bomber will always be shot down and with some luck, two. Dive Bombers will lose two.

 

This isn't with Barrage, but whatever.

Edited by Umidoori

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Probably due to the higher match making with the Cleveland it's harder now... Any thing on tier 9 IJN CV vs Cleveland or IJN equivalent?

 

I haven't tested the Ibuki with a tier 9 Essex, but I do know that the Baltimore's 300DPS AA can do a lot more than the 180+DPS on the Ibuki.

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I just want to say....after having too many games where there was no chance to dodge manual dropped TBs, that, CVs are broken as of now.

Everything about them is balanced, except the part where the Manual aim is allowed to drop Torpedoes 1.5km away from a swerving battleship, usually the Japanese ones, who're slower, and sometimes longer.

I play a CV and I feel like all I need to do is force a turn and those huge BBs are going to take a good 30-40k (And that's when they are trying to dodge) when I have 3 squadrons of TBs out just to do that.

Honestly I just need to wait and watch what the BBs do and then drop a manual tube right beside them when they react, or don't react accordingly.

And Driving BBs myself I find myself in situations where I see the TBs, I move towards/away from the TB, make my ship at an angle as little as possible to dodge. All the guy needs to do is wait 4 seconds, fly his planes a little away and then Manually drop it agaiin after a short while. And poof goes 40k, or more, usually more, when you eat 2 squadrons with around 8 Torpedoes in an Amagi. I lose 40k health, he loses 1 plane from the squadron in that 4 seconds, maybe 2, when he flies away.

How is this fun when I can do it in under 3 mins from the start of game? I don't even find it fun when I ruin the life of a BB on the other side.

Anticipating planes, blah blah blah and all other strats is good and all. I don't expect to dodge everything in a BB, but I expect to be given time to react to it so I can minimize the damage with enough skill and reason. But getting the tubes dropped 1.5km from me in an angle I clearly isn't allowed to turn out of? That's definitely not the BB's fault, and the planes definitely aren't made to commit to a manual drop like that. Turning from left to right takes more than 5 seconds in the BBs,or more.

I don't know about enlarging the commit distance, I think its fine, since regardless of distance the planes drops them in under 2 seconds. but I feel maybe Torpedoes should have a delay on being armed after being dropped into the waters, This will prevent manual drops from dropping right next to a target and force CV players to readjust and actually set up plane formations to make their tubes hit. As of now I can't even consider the CV > BB matchup to even be a hard counter. There's not a single fight there when the fight is simply unfair. 

The only real answer against CVs is  to have  an organized team. But even then, that simply means the team with a CV left in battle is going to be way stronger than the team without one 10 mins in. MM always've had problems with putting CVs and SPGs in teams, wows can work on that when more players come along. But as of now, people who plays  BB and are learning to enjoy Wows and its mechanics are just going to stop playing BBs because most of them get to learn nothing with those Manual dropped TBs.

 

P.S, I tried everything in my Amagi and Nagato, dodging torpeddoes left right center. It  works fully well against auto drops and people who aren't that skilled in Manual drops. But if you're telling me that you should be entitled to blow up a BB 3mins in game because you've "learnt" how to manual drop, where most decent people are able to pick it up with practice anyways, and it should be left alone because that's not broken. I'd have to disagree, strongly.

Shooting a dodgy target 20kms  away and commiting to a shot once every 30 seconds is the way. Knowing perfectly well you're going to kill or cripple your target once every minute? That's just no fun. And a ship is worth its salt only when there's a challenge.

Edited by jjjynx

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so far i only died 3 times on the battleship/ca at around 5 minute mark, 1 on my fusou, 1 on my baltimore when i'm escorting bb  pre-patch (i didn't expected essex to target me first) and yesterday with essex who sandwich my tier 6 bb with her two torpedo bomb. but i remember blasting more CA/BB  using my BB around 5 minute mark than using a carrier, i also experienced getting blasted by BB a lot too so i think battleship are more insane than carrier.


i don't know if it still exist but imagine a BB with aim mod, all he has to do is to aim where the the mod is pointing and pray to RNG-sus that those shell are going to penetrate the ship citade. carries can't do that at all.

 

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so far i only died 3 times on the battleship/ca at around 5 minute mark, 1 on my fusou, 1 on my baltimore when i'm escorting bb  pre-patch (i didn't expected essex to target me first) and yesterday with essex who sandwich my tier 6 bb with her two torpedo bomb. but i remember blasting more CA/BB  using my BB around 5 minute mark than using a carrier, i also experienced getting blasted by BB a lot too so i think battleship are more insane than carrier.

 

 

i don't know if it still exist but imagine a BB with aim mod, all he has to do is to aim where the the mod is pointing and pray to RNG-sus that those shell are going to penetrate the ship citade. carries can't do that at all.

 

 

But yea that's aimbot and those aimbots should be banned at all costs. So a proper BB will have to aim and still won't be able to take you down in 2 shots, unless 2 full salvoes hit and he citadels you for 2 shots every time. CVs can take one BB out of commision in one 3 squad drops.

 

Actually, I'll just record some video of doing it in a CV. It irritates the hell out of me even tho I'm the one doing it tho.

Edited by jjjynx

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But yea that's aimbot and those aimbots should be banned at all costs. So a proper BB will have to aim and still won't be able to take you down in 2 shots, unless 2 full salvoes hit and he citadels you for 2 shots every time. CVs can take one BB out of commision in one 3 squad drops.

 

Update 0.3.0 broke the aim assist mod already. So far, there's no aim assist mods available to replace that one.

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