Subs are hard

[Rina_Pon]

Lets talk subs. First, the news in case you haven't heard: it's bye bye for now -

We have decided to temporarily stop testing submarines on the main server in order to prepare additional changes.

Second, there was a post on reddit a couple of weeks ago from someone who put in the effort to figure out how to play them effectively, giving out all the tips and tricks. The gist of it, for German subs at least, was "Don't ping. Just sneak up at periscope depth to point blank the enemy with the dumbfire* torps." (*only available on the T8 and T10 models)

In the last week I've been playing the T6 and T8 KM subs extensively. Somewhat pointless, since everything will likely change substantially the next time the are returned for testing, but just to confirm what the devblog announced,

1. Damage output is minimal compared to other classes. [For the time it takes to get into an attack position, and the risks involved, the torpedoes are difficult to land and don't do very much damage.]
2. Survival is lower too. [Eventually the enemy team will close in on your position and your battery timer will run out.]
3. Capping is hard. [Too many aircraft, no smoke.]
4. Spotting damage is low. [Too slow. The sub normally spawn in the center, and are last to arrive at the battles that normally form at the flanks.]

The nutshell problem is the same as for CVs: Non CV/SS players don't want to take large chunks of damage from something they can't hit back at, but CV players aren't interested in playing CV/SSs if there is no potential for high damage output.

For CVs, WG "solved" this by limiting the damage of single strikes, but increasing the frequency and ease of hits. CV players can build up good damage over time, but dev. strikes are off the menu. Also, playing CVs is attractive because CV have significant game influence through spotting, and by being able to focus any target on the map at will.

By contrast, the whole existence of subs is stealth. In a 20 minute game, there are only 2-3 opportunities at best to attack, since any strike made will alert the enemy and you'll need to retreat, hide for a while, and reposition before setting up another run. With so few chances to attack, damage per attack must be made large if the class is to be comparatively effective. So, WG is between rock and hard place. Subs need the ability to dev strike an enemy, but players go nuts and demand nerfs if their BB gets nuked by a sub.

In principle, subs are a class of torpedo destroyer that trades smoke for near-invisibility. You can do DD things like cap and spot. At periscope depth you comfortably outspot DDs, a fact that can be extremely valuable to your team. In practice this is only intermittently useful, however. Subs are so slow and have to focus so much energy on attacking enemy BBs that they are unlikely to be positioned to spot an enemy DD except by chance.

All that said, I find playing subs to be interesting. It's a new toolset and a new set of challenges. It doesn't matter that the damage output is minimal compared to a DD, the other team has the same problem. All you have to do is play better than the enemy sub. 

[Rina_Pon]

short version:

Too many planes.

Too many BBs with hydro.

Too many ships with ASW planes.

[dejiko_nyo]

The problem: people and weegee so focused on damage it becomes the main scoring priority. Subs do not work that way. Their job is to unleash a devstrike and sink their target then slink away. Same with CVs. RTS CVs were perfectly fine. You can devstrike but at the risk of losing half your force. Now, it is like a taking a tourbus to target. 

[Skarhabek]

 

SUB ROLE : Hunting CV or valuable target

how to sub : American SUB SUCK, pick only German and T10....

best way to play : you got unspotted to the backline of enemy, then point blank torpedo.... that is why CV is really vulnerable againts sub. after you screw the enemy CV or getting behind the enemy line.... happy torpedoooo...

 

of course dont pinging often! its tell your location and pro BB player simply drop the airstrike

 

finally CV have its counter LOL.... its called sub

[Grygus_Triss]

I am asking myself, what is the difference between getting devstruck by a BB and devstruck by a SS or CV?

We've all been chunked by a BB at some point,, or by a CR, or a DD's torps and we don't cry foul at that? Well... people did at Shima's torps i the past, that's why they were nerfed.

Sometimes even those ships can shoot at us and get away with it. A DD is practically invisible, we can't always fight back, a BB may outrange us if something is spotting us for them. CRs can duck behind islands... avoiding or reducing damage is one of the big features of the game.

So what's the difference with CVs and SSs?

IMO, its about feeling in control. Feeling like you have options. If I get hit by DD torps, CRs or BBs, I feel like I put myself in a position to get hit. I got spotted, I broadsided, I sailed predictably, I sat in a smokescreen.

I them have choice about how to counter. Angle, run, dodge, stop firing and go undetected etc...

With CVs, new and RTS, there is always the feeling that it is more the CV messing up than whatever you do. RTS at least, you could shoot down their squad, lessen the impact in a meaningful way, and feel like you were hurting them. The interesting thing with CVs is that we fear getting hit AT ALL, whereas we don't mind getting a few over pens or such when trying to mitigate damage from gunships. Part of that is likely because we don't feel we are doing meaningful damage to the CV... (That fact that CVs can easily spot us for other ships doesn't help)

So... what is the issue with SS? like DD, they can hit you with torpedos. Like DD, you can run and hide from them. They are very different from CVs in that regard, they cannot necessarily come at you from any angle.

Well, the two big problems are their two big features. Homing torpedos and the ability to dive. Dodging torpedos is easy enough, especially if sailing away, but homing torpedos return that feeling of helplessness we have with planes. The feeling that whatever we do, we cannot escape.

Similar thing with the diving I think. Most DDs can outrun non DDs, and are hard to chase down, but it can be done. Forced into an island, or the map border, or maybe they keep slowing down to launch torps at you. Maybe you rush their smokescreen with hydro, maybe you have radar. You can combat them, you don't feel helpless.

A submerged SS give a surface ship player that feeling or helplessness again, there is no way to fight back. You don't know where it is. This, combined with homing torpedo's, makes them very scary.

 

Of course, any player of CV or SS can tell you that its mostly an illusion of helplessness. That the ships are really not that powerful. Which is true, over the course of an entire battle, but for an individual surface ship, being the focus of such ships still gives that feeling of helplessness, even if the ability of the CV or SS to do so in a battle is fleeting. A SS may only be able to harass one ship well during a battle, but for that one player its a horrible experience.

Which really shows you what a great job WG have done to make ship types which are both frustrating to play, and play against.

Not that it is completely WGs fault, I'm sure that's how it felt fighting against submarines in real life as well.

Unfortunately, I don't actually know what the answer could be. For as long as SS can give that feeling of helplessness, they will be hated. And any moves to increase their ability to do damage while keeping that ability to impart helplessness will only make them more reviled...

Anyway, this was an interesting thought analysis.

In conclusion: It is not necessarily a ships combat effectiveness over an entire battle which will make it hated and unfun to play against, but its ability to impart a feeling of helplessness, even if only to one or two players during that battle. And Submarines are a ship that can do that by Historical Design.

[Grygus_Triss]

23 minutes ago, Skarhabek said:

 

SUB ROLE : Hunting CV or valuable target

how to sub : American SUB SUCK, pick only German and T10....

best way to play : you got unspotted to the backline of enemy, then point blank torpedo.... that is why CV is really vulnerable againts sub. after you screw the enemy CV or getting behind the enemy line.... happy torpedoooo...

 

of course dont pinging often! its tell your location and pro BB player simply drop the airstrike

 

finally CV have its counter LOL.... its called sub

Unfortunately, most submarine players will not want to spend half the battle sneaking to the back line...

[Mechfori]

1 hour ago, Grygus_Triss said:

Unfortunately, most submarine players will not want to spend half the battle sneaking to the back line...

when only Damage Numbers counts , this game, especially at higher tier , pretty much force the players not to play anything else and this in turn , of course , create even more issues in game and in gameplay

[Skarhabek]

2 hours ago, Grygus_Triss said:

 

So... what is the issue with SS? like DD, they can hit you with torpedos. Like DD, you can run and hide from them. They are very different from CVs in that regard, they cannot necessarily come at you from any angle.

you are understimate T10 German Sub that can reach 37knot LOL.....

 

the biggest issue with the current sub is not sub itself,,.... ITS THE PLAYER.... its another lack of tutorial by WG.

sub player feel they are weak because they dont know how to play.....

normal pleebs think sub is untouchable.....

 

BUT THE TRUTH IS THE CURRENT SUB IS BALANCED!!! THE ROLE IS HUNT CV.... and Patience its her weapon!

yeah, except for american sub that is need tweaked...... its currently feel underwhelming compared to German one.....

 

 

#TEAMSUB

#WENEEDSUB

#END_THE_REIGN_OF_CV

#SUBisLOVE

[Rina_Pon]

It seems that the low tier subs were nerfed harder than the high tier ones. The TX german sub is still pretty fearsome, but I've been playing the T6 and T8. The T6 is pretty toothless, and is horribly slow. The T8 is reasonable, but still slow.

It is surprisingly hard to take down a T8 CV in a T8 sub. You have to arrange your pings and torpedo launches in a complex pattern to work around his damage control cooldowns, and time your second ping just right so that it hasn't worn off by the time the torps are about to land. Obviously you can do the whole thing in stealth it's easy, but this is unlikely. Same applies for BBs, but harder still since they tend to be less isolated and can shoot back more.

Oddly enough the homing torps seem to work best against cruisers. The best strategy against DDs is to spot them and hope your team will kill them for you.

I have no idea what WG will do with them next, but in my opinion they have to increase the torpedo damage if they are going to make actually hitting anything with them this difficult. That was the original intent with the double ping to bypass the torpedo protection, but in practice this is so difficult, detonations are more likely.

 

[dejiko_nyo]

Rework the scoring mechanism. Their damage output is fine.

[Rina_Pon]

Definitely not fine. Subs contribute little of value outside of dealing damage, and currently do much less damage than other classes. Tweaking the score isn't going to make them more effective.

[Skarhabek]

3 hours ago, Rina_Pon said:

 

It is surprisingly hard to take down a T8 CV in a T8 sub.

 

its also still hard to take down T10 CV in T10 Sub, i need 3 to 5 min to kill CV.... its better if some BB aim at enemy CV too. but its enough to disrupt CV concentration along with its team mate. usually some DD or CL will try to chase me as well, leave their position to the edge of the map LOL.

 

3 hours ago, Rina_Pon said:

Definitely not fine. Subs contribute little of value outside of dealing damage, and currently do much less damage than other classes. Tweaking the score isn't going to make them more effective.

you are half right, but T10 German Sub is very efficient in carry CV games, due to its ability to wreck enemy CV along with drawing enemy DD or CL to chase you.

based on my experience.... sub can contribute a lot of CV is present. just go to back of enemy line, make everyone panic and go hide LOL... simply dont ping randomly

 

the one who need tweaking badly is american sub.... the consummable is feel really inferior.

[blackduck303]

On 1/3/2022 at 11:19 PM, Skarhabek said:

its also still hard to take down T10 CV in T10 Sub, i need 3 to 5 min to kill CV.... its better if some BB aim at enemy CV too. but its enough to disrupt CV concentration along with its team mate. usually some DD or CL will try to chase me as well, leave their position to the edge of the map LOL.

 

you are half right, but T10 German Sub is very efficient in carry CV games, due to its ability to wreck enemy CV along with drawing enemy DD or CL to chase you.

based on my experience.... sub can contribute a lot of CV is present. just go to back of enemy line, make everyone panic and go hide LOL... simply dont ping randomly

 

the one who need tweaking badly is american sub.... the consummable is feel really inferior.

Thank u for a good report, from a person that enjoys subs

[Waskly_Wabbit]

I think the situation with subs is a little like CV's

With the changes to CV's players ranted and screamed that it would ruin the game, and threatened to leave.

But the CV changes brought and extra level balance to the game

There's too many BB players that just want to sit up the back and lob shells and tank, but not be bothered by any other annoying classes.

There's too many players that want to sail of on their own and score, and not stick together and work as a team.

Now with subs and CV's, if you just go of on your own you end up being easily picked off.

I think a lot of the whining comes from the LEET players who are upset with their current tanking techniques being changed.

The best sub IMO was the VI German sub 

Subs are like CV's. Many players cant play CV's 

But some players do very well on CV's 

And like CV's you don't want every player trying to use them, only the few ......

 

Earlier versions of subs were better than the current version, but any sub in the game is better than no sub 

The best way to play is fire off your torps, and then turn to 90' parallel to the target 

They will fire off their ASW planes in the direction of the torps and miss you

Always fire and ping as a rule, rarely ping and fire 

Pings can be used to "shepherd the enemy", just by pinging a ship you can get them to turn around / break off.

So there should be scores for pings 

They are a good ship to use for spotting like DD's

 

The biggest issue is the battery drainage, and makes the US subs pretty useless.

They are the only class that doesn't have the power to complete the game.

With the present version, you basically accept that you score as much as you can for three quarters of the game,..... and then you die.

 

Either:

* - Provide a full 20 minutes of battery and keep the detection penalties

* - Bring back recharging at snorkel depth.

* - Remove the battery detection penalties

* - Give US subs the same battery drain perk as the German subs