Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
You need to play a total of 10 battles to post in this section.
Moggytwo

The wider impact of the Rocket Fighter changes on the game

35 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

1,242
[AUSNZ]
Beta Tester
1,551 posts
12,459 battles

Patch 0.10.5 has been out for two weeks now, and it contained some pretty massive changes to how Rocket Fighters work.  I'm not going to go into those specific changes in this thread as that has been discussed at length in many other threads, suffice it to say that it is now much harder to hit DD's with rockets now. 

What I want to look at is the wider impact of those changes on the game.  Has it been positive, negative, or no real change?

Firstly, let's look at the populations of the different classes before the change.  Here's the data (source: maple syrup), for player populations, tiers 7 to 10, 2 months prior to 15 May 2021:

  •                       SEA                                                           NA                                                           EU
  •   BB         CA          DD         CV                BB         CA          DD         CV                BB         CA          DD         CV
  • 44.3%    29.4%    21.0%    5.3%            40.4%    28.0%    28.4%    3.1%            43.4%    28.1%    26.1%    2.4%

Now let's compare it to the one week population data from 26 June 2021:

  •                       SEA                                                           NA                                                           EU
  •   BB         CA          DD         CV                BB         CA          DD         CV                BB         CA          DD         CV
  • 38.8%    31.6%    24.9%    4.7%            35.5%    28.4%    33.1%    3.0%            36.6%    28.7%    32.2%    2.4%

 

Now the trends are obvious here.  BB population is down significantly across all servers, cruiser population is up a little, and DD population is up significantly.  What is also very interesting is that CV population is almost unchanged!  I have to admit I am quite surprised at that last stat, I fully expected a significant drop in CV population, and I was quite clearly wrong with that prediction.

So why have the populations changed so significantly, and in the way they have?  Well the answer is relatively simple; players feel that they have a lot more freedom to play their DD's with less oppressive CV interference, pushing the DD population up.  CV's have moved their attention a little more towards BB's and away from DD's.  These two factors combined have forced a corresponding drop in BB population. 

What about the effect this has had on the game meta?  Well this is where we get into the opinion side of things, so bear with me.  My experience has been of a noticeably improved meta.  We had a BB overpopulation before (and this is reflected in the stats above), and too many BB's causes both BB's and especially cruisers to be much more passive, and it also means that players are more likely to take out cruisers that are more survivable against BB's (like Russian cruisers), and these ships also have the effect of making for passive play.  Less BB's mean that players will be more comfortable taking out light cruisers and more mobile cruisers, and means there are more opportunities to push or flank in open water with less threats of BB alpha removing you from the game.  This has made for a noticeably more dynamic and less passive meta, and that has been more enjoyable to play in for every class!

So this one change has actually been a massive overall improvement for the game.  The populations are better balanced, and the game is more dynamic and interesting.  All that from the change of making rockets less impactful on DD's.  Now I am a DD main, although I do a fair bit of play in CV's as well, and it has definitely been unpleasant to use rocket fighters this patch.  However, I'm happy to deal with that negative effect given the overwhelming positive effect this has had on the game.  I do think that some refining can definitely be done to the rocket fighters change, it feels pretty clunky at the moment, but what shouldn't change is the fundamental aspect of moving rockets away from being an anti-DD tool, and into other roles.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,954
[CLAY]
Member
3,537 posts
15,104 battles

Is this data from random battles only?

Are there other variables which may have affected the numbers?

For instance, many of the T9 & 10 BB players have have migrated to Grand Battles. Or do the numbers take this into account as well?

That said, I do agree that things are better for DDs now, and the game in general at this present point. I’d need more data to confirm it’s because of the rocket plane rework.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,242
[AUSNZ]
Beta Tester
1,551 posts
12,459 battles
43 minutes ago, Grygus_Triss said:

Is this data from random battles only?

Are there other variables which may have affected the numbers?

For instance, many of the T9 & 10 BB players have have migrated to Grand Battles. Or do the numbers take this into account as well?

That said, I do agree that things are better for DDs now, and the game in general at this present point. I’d need more data to confirm it’s because of the rocket plane rework.

Randoms only, and you're right in that Grand Battles may have had an impact.  I have no idea of the population of that mode, if it is pulling away significant numbers, or if it is skewed to BB players over other players.

These are only initial numbers, and we'll get a better idea over the months to come, but it looks promising right now.  Hopefully this trend continues.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
963
[SMOKE]
Member
3,030 posts
19,497 battles

I think the numbers also tell something else, take a look at EU and NA numbers and now take a look at SEA numbers. 

Where's the difference and what is the difference. We used to had significantly more CV and BB per  capita population and now that's being bring down to a more or less same level as far as BB goes and CV , well still quite proportionally higher.

The part about DD now facing less oppressive CV bullying is certainly true , but the other part of that .. why so many BB and CV beforehand. Well damage dealing, survival .. those are two factors .. the longer you can live in a game the more farming damage and CV / BB are just better combo to deliver both.

In a server meta where people really only value farming and survival more than team and team play , whatever drive against those two will drive population down and what condone towards will drive population up.

Is the game really more dynamic , I had my doubt , am still seeing BB and Cruisers only caring to pace at the back keep telling others this and that. CV now play more spotting instead of go bullying the DD, that can be good but it can also be bad. Am seeing team ever slower, ever less willing to risk a push

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,928
[151ST]
Member
3,976 posts
13,078 battles

@Moggytwo

FYI, those numbers are semi-impossible to read or correlate on my phone...

When you get a chance on PC, can you use the table tool so they're easier to view?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,928
[151ST]
Member
3,976 posts
13,078 battles
1 hour ago, Moggytwo said:

Now the trends are obvious here.  BB population is down significantly across all servers, cruiser population is up a little, and DD population is up significantly.  What is also very interesting is that CV population is almost unchanged!  I have to admit I am quite surprised at that last stat, I fully expected a significant drop in CV population, and I was quite clearly wrong with that prediction.

I would, if you get a chance go and look at T4-6...

I swear CV population has dropped quite a bit at those tiers lately.

I'd also as mentioned by @Grygus_Triss wait till Grand Battles are over and the 'down' time inbetween ranked seasons (if there is one) to evaluate the real numbers (if possible).

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
963
[SMOKE]
Member
3,030 posts
19,497 battles
6 minutes ago, S4pp3R said:

I would, if you get a chance go and look at T4-6...

I swear CV population has dropped quite a bit at those tiers lately.

..

I would not disagree but that's taking over oppressive and op seal-clubbing off the game there and we should welcome that. Seriously CV can still easy play against most surface ships at those tiers it's just that too many CV players are spoiled by the previous no sweat seal- clubbing that they do not use the time to hone their needed play. 

I think grand battle do take a high chunk of players away from Random and the numbers should be only seen as preliminary.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,242
[AUSNZ]
Beta Tester
1,551 posts
12,459 battles

SEA

      NA       EU      
BB CA DD CV BB CA DD CV BB CA DD CV
44.3% 29.4% 21.0% 5.3% 40.4% 28.0% 28.4% 3.1% 43.4% 28.1% 26.1%

2.4%

SEA

      NA       EU      
BB CA DD CV BB CA DD CV BB CA DD CV
38.8% 31.6% 24.9% 4.7% 35.5% 28.4% 33.1% 3.0% 36.6% 28.7% 32.2%

2.4%

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,242
[AUSNZ]
Beta Tester
1,551 posts
12,459 battles

@S4pp3R see above for a table.  Hope that helps.  Top half is last patch, bottom half is this patch.  The table tool is absolutely abhorrent to use, hence I didn't put one in the OP! 

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,954
[CLAY]
Member
3,537 posts
15,104 battles
8 minutes ago, S4pp3R said:

I would, if you get a chance go and look at T4-6...

I swear CV population has dropped quite a bit at those tiers lately.

I'd also as mentioned by @Grygus_Triss wait till Grand Battles are over and the 'down' time inbetween ranked seasons (if there is one) to evaluate the real numbers (if possible).

One of the problems with WG pushing out so many events and missions, it’s hard to get a ‘base’ value on the meta. It’s always being affected by new line/ ship releases, special events, ranked, etc...

If WG had one update in 3 be a “plain no frills” update, where nothing much was added. Beyond quality of life stuff. We might have a chance  to see a base line reading.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,928
[151ST]
Member
3,976 posts
13,078 battles
1 hour ago, Moggytwo said:

@S4pp3R see above for a table.  Hope that helps.  Top half is last patch, bottom half is this patch.  The table tool is absolutely abhorrent to use, hence I didn't put one in the OP! 

Yep, much betterer.

5.3 to 4.7 is a 10% relative change, that's not nothing.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,632
[TLS]
Member
5,309 posts
22,026 battles

Two words: German destroyer grinding. Okay. 3 words.

Nobody on the other servers play CVs. Look at their piddly percentages. Asia's CV rate is 1.5 to 2x higher than that of the other server. 

The last 7 days would be a good sample time as the number of people in Big Battles has bottomed out. Officially, I have given up ever playing CV as it has just become so tedious. What was it weegee wanted to do with "CV rework"? Now having opposite effect. Invested so much effort and now all gone to waste. 

Edited by dejiko_nyo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17
[_BOB_]
Member
37 posts
7,317 battles

Some interesting stats there, and definitely correlates with my experience in game lately. Far more 3-4 DD games than 1-2 DD games now. 

I'm finding it more enjoyable as a DD main, lots more knife fighting and it's less of a death sentence for the team when you lose a DD if you still have 2-3 more alive. 

Would be interesting to get the stats from the Deadeye meta patches as well to see how much the BB population has declined since then.

  • Cool 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50
[TDA]
Member
213 posts
15,352 battles

For SEA, BB at 44.3% was too high for one class anyway, approaching half by itself.  Cruisers benefit here too from a drop in BB pop. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
316
[TWR]
Alpha Tester
2,009 posts
6,747 battles

I play cv quite a bit, and TBH I never used the rockets for any serious attacks for some patches now, pretty much since the view range nerf, I find it insane that a tier 10 cruiser can be hitting me with AA before I can even see it, and rocket planes, well they suffer the most having the weakest armour.

DD have also been hard to find for a while, and my rocket sorties can't really handle flying over a targets AA zone twice, for one attack pass.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
177
[IMS]
Member
649 posts
13,435 battles

On CV Ranger just now, have to use bombers to sink enemy DD heading for me. Rocket planes keep missing, no way to hit that DD. SIGH.
Rocket planes now basically for spotting or hitting BBs and slower Cruisers.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16
[NAU2]
Member
46 posts
On 7/1/2021 at 3:19 PM, Moggytwo said:

Patch 0.10.5 has been out for two weeks now, and it contained some pretty massive changes to how Rocket Fighters work.  I'm not going to go into those specific changes in this thread as that has been discussed at length in many other threads, suffice it to say that it is now much harder to hit DD's with rockets now. 

What I want to look at is the wider impact of those changes on the game.  Has it been positive, negative, or no real change?

Firstly, let's look at the populations of the different classes before the change.  Here's the data (source: maple syrup), for player populations, tiers 7 to 10, 2 months prior to 15 May 2021:

  •                       SEA                                                           NA                                                           EU
  •   BB         CA          DD         CV                BB         CA          DD         CV                BB         CA          DD         CV
  • 44.3%    29.4%    21.0%    5.3%            40.4%    28.0%    28.4%    3.1%            43.4%    28.1%    26.1%    2.4%

Now let's compare it to the one week population data from 26 June 2021:

  •                       SEA                                                           NA                                                           EU
  •   BB         CA          DD         CV                BB         CA          DD         CV                BB         CA          DD         CV
  • 38.8%    31.6%    24.9%    4.7%            35.5%    28.4%    33.1%    3.0%            36.6%    28.7%    32.2%    2.4%

 

Now the trends are obvious here.  BB population is down significantly across all servers, cruiser population is up a little, and DD population is up significantly.  What is also very interesting is that CV population is almost unchanged!  I have to admit I am quite surprised at that last stat, I fully expected a significant drop in CV population, and I was quite clearly wrong with that prediction.

So why have the populations changed so significantly, and in the way they have?  Well the answer is relatively simple; players feel that they have a lot more freedom to play their DD's with less oppressive CV interference, pushing the DD population up.  CV's have moved their attention a little more towards BB's and away from DD's.  These two factors combined have forced a corresponding drop in BB population. 

What about the effect this has had on the game meta?  Well this is where we get into the opinion side of things, so bear with me.  My experience has been of a noticeably improved meta.  We had a BB overpopulation before (and this is reflected in the stats above), and too many BB's causes both BB's and especially cruisers to be much more passive, and it also means that players are more likely to take out cruisers that are more survivable against BB's (like Russian cruisers), and these ships also have the effect of making for passive play.  Less BB's mean that players will be more comfortable taking out light cruisers and more mobile cruisers, and means there are more opportunities to push or flank in open water with less threats of BB alpha removing you from the game.  This has made for a noticeably more dynamic and less passive meta, and that has been more enjoyable to play in for every class!

So this one change has actually been a massive overall improvement for the game.  The populations are better balanced, and the game is more dynamic and interesting.  All that from the change of making rockets less impactful on DD's.  Now I am a DD main, although I do a fair bit of play in CV's as well, and it has definitely been unpleasant to use rocket fighters this patch.  However, I'm happy to deal with that negative effect given the overwhelming positive effect this has had on the game.  I do think that some refining can definitely be done to the rocket fighters change, it feels pretty clunky at the moment, but what shouldn't change is the fundamental aspect of moving rockets away from being an anti-DD tool, and into other roles.

Respect for the data and analysis but I don’t think you’re quite right. Battleships are going to be EVEN MORE passive with more destroyers in the game. Battleships do not push when there are destroyers in the zone. It’s likely that battleships will be pressed to remain third line even more so than they already are. Light cruisers may become more dynamic although as a decent Yamato player, a devastating strike on light cruisers (even at 20km) isn’t exactly occasional.

I often division with a Petrapavlovsk player. Sure he can push in, radar, citadel strike some cruisers and even battleships, but what he cannot do is bow tank a Yamato at 20km. So what’s going to happen? Is he going to be more or less aggressive?

However I have noticed one factor that may encourage battleships to at least go with the team. When playing Richthofen, the rockets are pretty bad now. Supreme clunkiness. So instead, I fly the torpedos and bombers. I hit practically everyone with torpedoes — destroyers, cruisers and battleships are all vulnerable to Richthofen’s brilliantly fast torpedoes. But bombing runs are much more tempting when it comes to battleships. Take a full squadron of bombers against a Yamato and drop twice — that’s a possible 54,000 damage to that Yamato in just half a squadron’s worth of planes. 108,000 damage in ONE squad (but this is practically impossible to achieve). So hopefully the Yamato will follow his team, protected by their AA. After all, Yamato isn’t very powerful against planes.

I play both battleships and carriers often. I play Yoshino as well. Do I think the meta will become more dynamic and less passive? Absolutely not. The data is all theoretical though, experimental results can always be different. If I’ve made any mistakes please feel free to point them out, I’m also figuring out the changes so there could still be much to consider.

Edited by _Raikii
  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
316
[TWR]
Alpha Tester
2,009 posts
6,747 battles

Yes the game simply reopened an old meta of DD aggressiveness which equals torp spam to any who dare to push.

Rock paper scissors WG just can't get it right!

They seem to be building metas on the idea that random players will come together and support each other on any given team AHAHAHAHAHAHA. NO!.

That might be the case just slightly more in other game modes such as ranked or clan battles (what are those again?).

But my 10-20% win rate in randoms tells another story.

In WeeGees defense, it's pretty much unbalanceable game now, SOME class has to be meta, and heavily askews the battles in their own way.

Parachute bombers I don't think will fix the island camping issue.

The result will be WG pumping out shiny new must have ship, that has gimmicks such as current Constellation, meanwhile leaving many broken poorly balanced ships in their wake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
95
[T3M]
Member
222 posts
6,547 battles
26 minutes ago, Metal_illness said:

Yes the game simply reopened an old meta of DD aggressiveness which equals torp spam to any who dare to push.

Rock paper scissors WG just can't get it right!

They seem to be building metas on the idea that random players will come together and support each other on any given team AHAHAHAHAHAHA. NO!.

That might be the case just slightly more in other game modes such as ranked or clan battles (what are those again?).

But my 10-20% win rate in randoms tells another story.

In WeeGees defense, it's pretty much unbalanceable game now, SOME class has to be meta, and heavily askews the battles in their own way.

Parachute bombers I don't think will fix the island camping issue.

The result will be WG pumping out shiny new must have ship, that has gimmicks such as current Constellation, meanwhile leaving many broken poorly balanced ships in their wake.

I think that is the most sensible post I have seen in a while.  No matter what WG does someone / something is going to be unbalanced and the community is going to cry about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,632
[TLS]
Member
5,309 posts
22,026 battles
18 hours ago, Andy_Siau said:

On CV Ranger just now, have to use bombers to sink enemy DD heading for me. Rocket planes keep missing, no way to hit that DD. SIGH.
Rocket planes now basically for spotting or hitting BBs and slower Cruisers.

And we are back to what was RTS CV: DBs and TBs. Except now heavily nerfed gameplay.

AND WITH ALL THAT WORK PUT INTO THE "REWORK" OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS. WHAT A WASTE. What was that quote again? "Too much work gone into it to abandon the rework?" If it was abandoned in 2018, then it would have been must less a waste than what it is now. I am sniggling maniacally at what I said 3 years back has come true. MWHAHAHAHA.

  • Cool 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
963
[SMOKE]
Member
3,030 posts
19,497 battles
1 hour ago, Metal_illness said:

Yes the game simply reopened an old meta of DD aggressiveness which equals torp spam to any who dare to push.

Rock paper scissors WG just can't get it right!

They seem to be building metas on the idea that random players will come together and support each other on any given team AHAHAHAHAHAHA. NO!.

That might be the case just slightly more in other game modes such as ranked or clan battles (what are those again?).

But my 10-20% win rate in randoms tells another story.

In WeeGees defense, it's pretty much unbalanceable game now, SOME class has to be meta, and heavily askews the battles in their own way.

Parachute bombers I don't think will fix the island camping issue.

The result will be WG pumping out shiny new must have ship, that has gimmicks such as current Constellation, meanwhile leaving many broken poorly balanced ships in their wake.

I doubt we can term that, its not those days when Shima's 20KM torp can simply deny a whole flank , but after the long long age torpedo detection nerf ( and over doing it ) , the flood of Radar and Hydro , and no less gunboat DD and mad CL , the saying ta there are torpedo spamming cannot be termed so. For first what is the successful torpedo hit rate on any specific torpedoes .. at anything mid and long range .. Guns of all kinds simply are far more effective. DD should be equally given their effective efficient and consistent mean to deal their damage dealing, sadly that's the par cause this game only ever look upon that and the numbers tell, DD are not even close of doing that.

I do agree the whole Rock-Scissor-Paper part simply are not there , its not really about meta , its about the whole game mechanics and , can WG balance that , yes they could but they will not, cause the population of players are not really asking for that, they ask for them to be OP over others .. So we see CV player complaining about this change cause they can no longer OP over the surface ships, especially small guys.

PUSH is still perfectly possible and viable but a PUSH do not mean you can do it in your single of duo of OP BB or Super Cruiser , In a sense the meta actually require team work to PUSH but of course team work is what's really lacking in this game, cause what - Team work only negatively incentive the player and penalize them for doing this very part . Instead selfish farming are highly rewarded .. so people do it , and once people shy away from doing the needed duty of team work , BB Tanking and giving forward fire Cover, Cruiser forward to give Close Support, DD forward to give the needed vanguard , screening and spotting , but of course all these only but put the said ship in high demand, high workload, high risk and high danger environment, but of course you are not being due rewarded for doing all that when that selfish whoever who can sit at the back and simply farm when enemy taking on those at the front are mighty rewarded ..

Its a team vs team PvP or PvE but is there a team after all .. to be fair , these days I simply put zero trust in teammates doing their so call team part .. experience just inform me they will not, whether its they would not or they could not does not matter , I play DD and CL main , they do not come forth to give the proper close support and / or Fire cover, the do not give tanking .. well then they should not expect a DD to do his / her part, cause equality plays out same fashion. DD Aggressiveness , no Its just DD trying to get their fair share of damage dealing cause the game present the class with the least effective, least efficient and least consistent damage dealing and yet demand them upon that when reward numbers come counting. We see that in Cruiser doing their HE spamming, BB doing their range sniping , CV bullying the surface ships .. its all but the same.

Its in the end the demand on Damage Dealing that force / entice / lure / sway players to do all that instead of team play and group up , support each others. The game mades it so that anyone even remotely trying to do the right things almost always end up just taking the sour end of the stick , then people simply will not do it

Edited by Mechfori

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
963
[SMOKE]
Member
3,030 posts
19,497 battles
14 minutes ago, dejiko_nyo said:

And we are back to what was RTS CV: DBs and TBs. Except now heavily nerfed gameplay.

AND WITH ALL THAT WORK PUT INTO THE "REWORK" OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS. WHAT A WASTE. What was that quote again? "Too much work gone into it to abandon the rework?" If it was abandoned in 2018, then it would have been must less a waste than what it is now. I am sniggling maniacally at what I said 3 years back has come true. MWHAHAHAHA.

What was the rework suppose to do .. they did it alright except they forget increasing CV population and popularity does not mean you can keep the others at the same time. Just take a look at low to mid tier Random .. Anyone even bother there ( except newbies who are unaware of the seal clubbing going around for so long )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,645
[MRI]
Member
4,042 posts
17,937 battles

A lot of 4 DD per side games, which are not fun at all if it happens to be a no CV match. Doesn't help that with CVs nerfed, all the noob DD players are coming out of the woodwork, making matches even more one-sided. CVs are just focusing on farming damage off BBs now - I see a lot of FDRs and Immelmanns. No point wasting time and effort trying to spot a DD when that doesn't pay the bills. Just drop a fighter and move on. Only HE bombers or German tech tree CVs with their fast torps have any hope of actually hitting a smart DD. For other CVs it is better to just focus on the big targets and hope your team's DDs aren't complete scrubs.

I disagree with the notion that BBs are more aggressive. If anything from my experience they are even more passive because of the increased number of DDs. They are not going to push when there are DDs in the area. And with CVs choosing to farm damage off bigger targets instead of playing an anti--DD role, that is one less counter to those little miscreants. The plus side of this I am seeing BBs are more willing to group up now. That doesn't mean they are going to push though, because they aren't going to push unless the enemy DD threat is taken care off. And once again, it falls to your team's DD to do that. Meaning that if your team DDs are noobs who die early, countering enemy DDs just got that much harder. Better hope that your CV has HE bombers or are German tech tree CVs with their fast torps, because a CV ain't countering a DD anymore.

Imo this is a  pretty bad change for anybody that isn't a DD. But whatever, it just means I can dominate harder when playing DDs.

  • Cool 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,811
[FORCE]
Modder, Member
3,319 posts
14,772 battles

The data doesn't show the T6, the tier where double CV games become more common since the nerf happened. Mind to dig that one?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,122
[-CAT-]
Member
4,150 posts
15,259 battles
4 hours ago, dejiko_nyo said:

And we are back to what was RTS CV: DBs and TBs. Except now heavily nerfed gameplay.

AND WITH ALL THAT WORK PUT INTO THE "REWORK" OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS. WHAT A WASTE. What was that quote again? "Too much work gone into it to abandon the rework?" If it was abandoned in 2018, then it would have been must less a waste than what it is now. I am sniggling maniacally at what I said 3 years back has come true. MWHAHAHAHA.

And in the corporate world, if the project fails, they just wasted corporate resource and time.

And they are in deeeeeeeeeeeep trouble. :Smile_trollface:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sign in to follow this  

×