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Anti-Russian ships sentiment: Why I think it's petty (WARNING: Humorless mode)

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Seeing some people (I won't name who, against forum rules about naming-and-shaming) react negatively to the recently-announced Soviet CV line made me question:
Is the WOWS community too harsh on anything Russian?

 

This isn't the first time backlash against Soviet ships occured; we saw this with Soviet battleships and the second line of Soviet cruisers. I just chalked those instances to WOWS being WOWS, but after roughly two to three years in the community, I think we just hate the idea of Russia getting anything nice for themselves.

 

Here's why, at least IMO:

 

-Nobody makes fun of paper ships in any other nation/tree. I don't see people complaining about Roon or Hindenburg despite them being paper-WG designs. Or Odin, Champagne, Conqueror, Thunderer (god no pls), or whatnot. But when the Russians do it, suddenly it's the worst thing in the world. Nobody complained about none of the German CV line ever being completed, but suddenly Russia getting theirs suddenly appears to be a bad thing.

-We already make fun of Russians everywhere. From Putin, their "undemocratic" government, how their weapons are absolute crap and overhyped (the Su-57, S-400, and 3M22 Zircon missile being the worst hit by this phenomenon; do note that this distinction is shared with China), how they have less GDP per capita than Texas, etc. Now they made this nice game where they can live out things that they never had the chance to IRL (including having a large navy), and we make fun of them for it? Not cool, man.

-Do you expect anything else from Russia-based devs? Not to mention, their naval archives are close by and they have access to them easily (Contrast with French, Italian, American or even British archives, where they may be a bit reluctant to share data with).

 

I simply think we must stop this Russian bias stuff and actually be happy the game's getting new ships- you can argue on whether they're needed or not, but new ships are new ships, and if you play AL as well, that comes with the bonus of eventually seeing a waifubote form of these ships. 

That's what I want to say for now, sorry. Was on humorless mode this week.

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I like to think the anti-Russian sentiment is all just memes.

But yeah for some of the reactions it is pretty hard to determine if those are just sarcastic comments or if there is genuine resentment.

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I would imagine half of the issue here is that because Wargaming is a Russian company, they are assumed to be hyperbolically patriotic and promoting of Russian superiority. Thus, when it is that Wargaming greenlights some Russian ship plans to be implemented, they are seen as wholly inaccurate and as a power fantasy. Do Russian ships get some leeway in their capabilities? Obviously, they are paper ships. I doubt half of the Tier 10 ships could exist without some leeway as paper designs.

While it is annoying seeing half of the Russian tree crowded with optimistic paper designs, it's not unreasonable when they become laden with gimmicks. This Soviet CV gimmick is unlikely to bring CV players away from their FDRs/Midways/Hakuryus. So be it.

I'm certain if this game was developed by a company of another patriotic nation, we would see more hatred towards that nation's ships, especially whatever paper designs they might receive. 

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Hail Putin! Our beloved Leader!

Down with illogical paper fantasyship designs. There was very little issue when the soviet dds came out. Another dd line, fast but compensated by RoF and sluggishness. Initial Soviet cruisers? Railguns mounted on paper. Still okay. Bullshittery started with their non-existent battleships. Perfect penetration lined up with bowtanking. Then a cruiser split for a nation with a puny navy. All this during in an environment of bad decision making (CV fiasco, Rubbish Bin, Bad PR). It's not hard to see why they are competing against EA for title of worst gaming company. No. It is not anti-Russian bias or what not. It just appears to be because of bad decisions.

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9 hours ago, TD1 said:

Seeing some people (I won't name who, against forum rules about naming-and-shaming) react negatively to the recently-announced Soviet CV line made me question:
Is the WOWS community too harsh on anything Russian?

I do think the community is somewhat anti-Soviet (less anti-Russian) and that it started out as a meme, but is partly due to the following factors...

  1. Numerous Soviet releases that have been hilariously strong (at the time). Petro is the persistent one at the moment but folks forget that Al Nev is pretty nasty if given a chance and Kremlin was pretty nuts at the time as well.
  2. The simple fiction at which many ships at point 1. are implemented. The freeboard of Petro, the engine power and citadel layouts of a range of SN ships, the shell ballistics and functionality of many ships, etc.
  3. There is a perception that built ships (and ship lines) should be prioritised in the game. Soviets while having a decent sized Navy, can't get to T7+ most of the time, despite this they had multiple line releases even before lines like RM BBs.
  4. SN CVs were always a meme; 'hahaha, you won't get that before Soviet CVs'. And yet, here we are... With Soviet CVs beating out real ship lines that can get to T10...
  5. Soviets have a Navy in game that is on a 'complete' level comparative to USN and IJN and that surpasses RN... This is despite having a comparable Navy to some minor powers during WW2/after.

While I think the community gives WG a fair bit of leeway with these sorts of things all things considered (and it is an arcade game after all) the level of Soviet Navy content is completely disproportionate to their reality of the time, many times over.

So while I do think 'soviet bias' is a bit of a myth, there is, as with all myths; a degree of truth to it.

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Its likely because the russian bias is so bloody obvious, after 40,000 battles in WoT or 5,000 or so battles in WoWS, and 11 years of playing WG products, almost exclusively.

The russian tanks or ships can remain over powered for years, in fact the only russian vehicle I can think of that was reduced from OP to UP by an actual nerf is the KV5, when WG weakened the armour of the radio operators turret, making it THE only weak spot on the front of the KV5.

The following is now an extremely exhausting list of current russian OP tanks in WoT (sigh here we go again):

T34-85M OP since release still OP now yet been out for years of powercreep

Defender OP since release still OP now yet been out for years of powercreep

LT432 OP since release still OP now yet been out for years of powercreep

The Obj tier 10 medium... bugger cant remember name it has an A at end, ridiculously OP since release, still OP now. I played the tier 9 (doesn't have the A) and was able to face hug tier 10 heavy tanks front to front, and BEAT THEM EASILY...

Damn my memory fades, just add ALL tier 8-10 russian mediums, heavies, and light tanks, including the reward tanks and any other tanks with Obj in front of the name as well. Then you have some of the SPG such as S-51 is brilliant too. Especially the russian tanks that are banned from competitions. There's a reason for that.

Now for the ships, as what you will notice if a russian BB is slowly floating towards your team, is that it takes an incredible amount of your teams firepower to sink it, and quite some time, meanwhile the rest of the enemy team is winning the game somewhere else:

Kremlin, Vlad, Lenin, Sov Soyasauce, the tier 4 Pyotr whatever its called gets TIER 10 ARMOUR AT TIER 4....imperator nicholai is legendary unicorn ship most players want.

Tier 10 russian dd was released with laser guns, fortunately those DID get nerfed, now russian tier 10 dd never seen, surely re-re-buffed *soon.

Mikhail Kutuzov ( renamed to Kutuzov) was OP now been powercrept somewhat, because is rare ship not available and never played, not likely to be re-re-buffed by WG anytime soon, is still a good ship to play, a little OP. Has name AK 47 for the memes.

Ohotnik unusually powerful in its tier, so slim it almost doesn't even exist, try hitting that as a target. Had a game yesterday where enemy one sailed into an island, and stayed there beached and invisible the entire battle (10 mins) while it spotted our entire flank sailing past it....perfect bot ship.

Petropavlovsk OP since day of release still OP now, how many years will powercreep take to make it average?.

Smolensk OP since day of release, due to salty tears of players WG forced to remove it, still great now.

DM donskoi and Moskva are both great ships, very powerful to play, think both have ice breaker bows which is WG excuse for them being so BB indestructible like when they bow face enemy....see BB survivability comment above.

Stalingrad the island camping OG, so OP since day of release still OP now. WG are releasing an entire line of parachute bombers just to combat this gameplay, it's THAT Over Powered.

The good news for WG is players trend towards playing through the russian vehicle lines, especially from tier 8-10, and NOT spending free xp to skip, because they are so easy to play, making RUSSIAN vehicles look like they are the best in the world (of WG). I know I'm guilty of this.

I've surely missed some doozies of OP tanks and ships, but you get the picture now?.

I could also list a lot of french tanks that are also OP (france seems to have the second most number of OP tanks in WoT), but their list STILL wouldn't exceed the russian one. That's why they are called second most.

All other nations tend to only have 0-2 real OP gems in their entire lines. A line being a classification BB, CL, CA, DD and COMING SOON russian CV!!!!!.

 

 

 

 

 

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Don't worry, I can assure you Russians take the piss out of the VMF (and pixel boats) too. On a geopolitical level its normal to mock or try to diminish the capabilities of those we see as adversaries. If you look at how the US reacts to the S400 you'll see their actions paint a different picture on how effective the see the system to be. A side always hypes up its own gear and abilities too - just look at any US made game or movie. They'll always mention how they would send ships to help a strickened Russian Sub, but they don't shout about how all those CH-47s and UH-60s that crashed in Afghanistan often needed to be recovered by chartered Russian-made Mi-26s. It's all just bluster both in game and in the real world and nothing to be taken too seriously.

On a side note I did in fact find it ridiculous that we had lines like KM CVs and even the pan-Asia DD line before things like Italian BBs, Commonwealth DDs etc and am disappointed in the release of VMF CVs only because it takes precedence over other lines I feel are more deserving of being in game.

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14 minutes ago, blauflamme22 said:

On a side note I did in fact find it ridiculous that we had lines like KM CVs and even the pan-Asia DD line before things like Itali

Pan Asia was unnecessary at the time but people just "flowed with it" because the game was "relatively new". Pan Asia was and is basically a mishmash of other dd lines surgically grafted together and held together by a gimmick: DWT. Fast forward to today and the game is a hodge-podge mess with core issues unaddressed yet more inconsequential lines and gimmicks being pumped out.

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35 minutes ago, S4pp3R said:

I do think the community is somewhat anti-Soviet (less anti-Russian) and that it started out as a meme, but is partly due to the following factors...

  1. Numerous Soviet releases that have been hilariously strong (at the time). Petro is the persistent one at the moment but folks forget that Al Nev is pretty nasty if given a chance and Kremlin was pretty nuts at the time as well.
  2. The simple fiction at which many ships at point 1. are implemented. The freeboard of Petro, the engine power and citadel layouts of a range of SN ships, the shell ballistics and functionality of many ships, etc.
  3. There is a perception that built ships (and ship lines) should be prioritised in the game. Soviets while having a decent sized Navy, can't get to T7+ most of the time, despite this they had multiple line releases even before lines like RM BBs.
  4. SN CVs were always a meme; 'hahaha, you won't get that before Soviet CVs'. And yet, here we are... With Soviet CVs beating out real ship lines that can get to T10...
  5. Soviets have a Navy in game that is on a 'complete' level comparative to USN and IJN and that surpasses RN... This is despite having a comparable Navy to some minor powers during WW2/after.

While I think the community gives WG a fair bit of leeway with these sorts of things all things considered (and it is an arcade game after all) the level of Soviet Navy content is completely disproportionate to their reality of the time, many times over.

So while I do think 'soviet bias' is a bit of a myth, there is, as with all myths; a degree of truth to it.

There are definitely more Russian ships in the game than there should be in comparison to other naval powers at the time. IMO, if the game were not developed by Russians, there would not be nearly so many.

We are more critical of Russian ships because of the developers nationality, so whenever we see a new Russian line based on paper ships, or a ship which is a little too powerful, we tend to get annoyed.

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11 minutes ago, Grygus_Triss said:

We are more critical of Russian ships because of the developers nationality, so whenever we see a new Russian line based on paper ships, or a ship which is a little too powerful, we tend to get annoyed.

Dutch line also unnecessary. See? What anti-soviet bias? I would also say the same for French. So again... _what anti-russian sentiment?_

On NA/EU maybe it is a thing but here, it's us taking the piss out of stupid decisions.

Edited by dejiko_nyo
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In some cases, it is pretty much due to their countries' stance during the Cold War. You were either supporting them, or against them; there was no middle ground. Even the countries that formed the Non-Aligned Movement tended to lean slightly to either sides although they insisted they were neutral.

Personally speaking, I'm not really buying into this Anti-Soviet bandwagon. Either because I have them & I would be a hypocrite if I say anything bad about them; or I simply don't care enough about the rest.

And of course, more paper ships = more ships AL could make in their part of the collab. The Soviets in AL really needs to have at least a CV, and coincidentally the upcoming Soviet CV line is so underappreciated by WoWs community. I mean the general rules for paper ships that AL makes in their part of the collab are:

  1. The ships were never laid down (Monarch, Gascogne, Seattle, etc.). Ships that were laid down but unfinished won't qualify (Graf Zeppelin, Amagi, etc.).
  2. The ships must be somewhat unpopular within the WoWs community for any reasons. Out of 17 paper ships that AL has made so far, only Georgia is the exception of this rule.
  3. The ships must be either T8 or T9 in WoWs. This rule might be changed in the future.

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2 hours ago, blauflamme22 said:

On a side note I did in fact find it ridiculous that we had lines like KM CVs and even the pan-Asia DD line before things like Italian BBs, Commonwealth DDs etc and am disappointed in the release of VMF CVs only because it takes precedence over other lines I feel are more deserving of being in game

WG has explained this before. They do this in order to space out the highly anticipated lines with the meh ones. If all the anticipated lines come out earlier, then there will be nothing to look forward to down the road, because all the good stuff is already out. It may not be an explanation one may agree with, but is certainly not an unreasonable one.

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A few errors, 

was obj 430 and 430u are the stupid OP russian medium tanks.

Obj 277, Obj 263, Obj 257 etc etc all too OP.

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5 hours ago, Thyaliad said:

I like to think the anti-Russian sentiment is all just memes.

Not in the NA forums tho. They're very vocal against anything Russian.

Some of them there act like they just woke up from the Cold War.  

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5 hours ago, Flandre_The_Loli said:

I'm certain if this game was developed by a company of another patriotic nation, we would see more hatred towards that nation's ships, especially whatever paper designs they might receive. 

Imagine if WoWS was made by American devs.

American ships would be blatantly broken and any Axis ships would be trash

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2 minutes ago, Ryuuoh_DeltaPlus said:

Imagine if WoWS was made by American devs.

American ships would be blatantly broken and any Axis ships would be trash

Outsource to Malaysia. No bias. Except scorpene will be op, rest trash.

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3 hours ago, Reinhard_of_Avercland said:

Personally speaking, I'm not really buying into this Anti-Soviet bandwagon. Either because I have them & I would be a hypocrite if I say anything bad about them; or I simply don't care enough about the rest.

Same for me. I don't have any of those patriotic/nationalistic crap boomers inject in when they play shooty botes.

I just go play any interesting bote I find, no matter if they're underpowered or "not the correct political alignment".

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3 hours ago, Ryuuoh_DeltaPlus said:

Not in the NA forums tho. They're very vocal against anything Russian.

Some of them there act like they just woke up from the Cold War.  

This right here is NA politics :Smile_hiding:

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7 hours ago, Reinhard_of_Avercland said:

In some cases, it is pretty much due to their countries' stance during the Cold War. You were either supporting them, or against them; there was no middle ground. Even the countries that formed the Non-Aligned Movement tended to lean slightly to either sides although they insisted they were neutral.

Personally speaking, I'm not really buying into this Anti-Soviet bandwagon. Either because I have them & I would be a hypocrite if I say anything bad about them; or I simply don't care enough about the rest.

And of course, more paper ships = more ships AL could make in their part of the collab. The Soviets in AL really needs to have at least a CV, and coincidentally the upcoming Soviet CV line is so underappreciated by WoWs community. I mean the general rules for paper ships that AL makes in their part of the collab are:

  1. The ships were never laid down (Monarch, Gascogne, Seattle, etc.). Ships that were laid down but unfinished won't qualify (Graf Zeppelin, Amagi, etc.).
  2. The ships must be somewhat unpopular within the WoWs community for any reasons. Out of 17 paper ships that AL has made so far, only Georgia is the exception of this rule.
  3. The ships must be either T8 or T9 in WoWs. This rule might be changed in the future.

Ibuki has not only been laid down but has considerable progress made before the halt of her construction as a cruiser as well. And at least two ships of the H-class battleships, according to Navypedia, has been laid down just before the breakout of WWII in Europe.

And you are seriously suggesting that Mainz, Roon, Drake and Kitakaze are as unpopular as Champagne, Cheshire, Monarch and FdG among the WoWS playerbase?

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6 hours ago, Thyaliad said:

WG has explained this before. They do this in order to space out the highly anticipated lines with the meh ones. If all the anticipated lines come out earlier, then there will be nothing to look forward to down the road, because all the good stuff is already out. It may not be an explanation one may agree with, but is certainly not an unreasonable one.

The "depleting contents" problem is even more significant for warships comparing with tanks and aircraft: countries with very limited (at least comparing with industrial powers) industrial and developmental capacity, like Spain, Romania and Finland, are able to develop some indigenous tank and aircraft designs. But only industrial powers (that are also not landlocked like Czechslovakia) are able to develop their own schools of naval architecture, not to say instances like the Axis and Austro-Hungary that their naval construction development were cut short by their defeats and some never recovered (for instance, almost all of the indigenous lineage of Japanese weapon development were cut off after 1945: surviving examples dismantled, factories closed down and workforce of workers and engineers dismissed).

Edited by Project45_Opytny
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4 minutes ago, Project45_Opytny said:

Ibuki has not only been laid down but has considerable progress made before the halt of her construction as a cruiser as well. And at least two ships of the H-class battleships, according to Navypedia, has been laid down just before the breakout of WWII in Europe.

And you are seriously suggesting that Mainz, Roon, Drake and Kitakaze are as unpopular as Champagne, Cheshire, Monarch and FdG among the WoWS playerbase?

Is Ibuki in WoWs actually close to her historical counterpart though? This is from the official WoWs wiki:

Untitled.png.1f89f5e2efa3c6ce8680f3e0a4911283.png

I have to rectify the said rules on this case.

Mainz didn't get enough fanfare during her release. WG somehow didn't advertise the ship as much as the others.

Roon was not popular enough compared to her peers, I think she received a buff since then.

Drake was completely underappreciated since a lot of players were not bothered enough to grind the line.

Kitakaze is indeed an exception on this case, along with Georgia. Although the concealment nerf on Kitakaze, and the removal of full AP penetration damage from BB shells on Harugumo had lowered Kitakaze's popularity.

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3 minutes ago, Reinhard_of_Avercland said:

Is Ibuki in WoWs actually close to her historical counterpart though? This is from the official WoWs wiki:

Untitled.png.1f89f5e2efa3c6ce8680f3e0a4911283.png

I have to rectify the said rules on this case.

Mainz didn't get enough fanfare during her release. WG somehow didn't advertise the ship as much as the others.

Roon was not popular enough compared to her peers, I think she received a buff since then.

Drake was completely underappreciated since a lot of players were not bothered enough to grind the line.

Kitakaze is indeed an exception on this case, along with Georgia. Although the concealment nerf on Kitakaze, and the removal of full AP penetration damage from BB shells on Harugumo had lowered Kitakaze's popularity.

Ibuki would be effectively a repeat Suzuya (that may incorporate the numerous "patches" to solve the numerous problems plaguing the Mogami-class directly during construction) had she been completed as a cruiser, and in WoWS to make her at least (to seem) more viable comparing with her Tier IX peers (that has been Baltimore long ago), incremental upgrades like Type 98 DP secondaries, Japanese Bofors and improved torpedoes are also incorporated.

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Wad de Hell, RissianBias.png.57c1422f1a3c0211ad1484b576fdadba.png

WG/ Lesta Studio confessed/made a statement about

Schuka.thumb.jpg.322660a963ac537164fecc4d9b520027.jpg

Its legit, default value of Wows, why wonder

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@Project45_Opytny Hakuryu was rumored to be the last in PR3 but the developers of Azur Lane have a very hard time making her design.

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