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Max_Battle

Build Diversity - What WOULD it look like?

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I wonder what a diverse range of builds for any given ship would actually look like?

Most games I play that are either competitive in a PvE (Diablo III for example - chasing high Greater Rift completes) or a PvP (World of Warcraft Warmode for example) sense always seem to end up with a Best In Slot.

At least for people who Min-Max to within a couple of percentage points of absolute optimal that is.

Is it realistic to expect that a highly competitive game where people can argue the stats to the finest details could/would actually have multiple builds that at the highest level, are actually viable?

I mean, many games, including this one and the ones I mentioned above have a casual mode, even a relaxed PvE mode where a wide variety of skills/builds/items/whatever are completely viable.

But when people get uber competitive and start analysing the stats and gear to the nth degree, something is always going to come out on top as "the best".

Is it not?

 

I wonder what design philosophy could be applied to actually achieve a wide variety of builds that would make you say something like, "Oh you brought an Alaska, what build do you have? Oh really, build X? Well I'm using build Y. Cool they should work together well."

Instead of, "Dude, WTF, this is ranked, why do you have THAT build! Everyone knows the <Insert Build Name> is the ONLY one to use in ranked!"

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23 minutes ago, Max_Battle said:

Most games I play that are either competitive in a PvE (Diablo III for example - chasing high Greater Rift completes)

The problem with that game is it holds players by the hands. If you want to get the strongest possible builds, you literally just need to scrap together what the sets or legendary items that buff the skills you want to play. And grind for Ancient gears.

Also GRs have essentially no limit, aka a "roof", that you eventually reach. So the powercreep keeps creeping on. WoWS, being hugely PvP, has a limit that is very close and visible.

The only few builds that I enjoyed (past tense) in D3 are Meteor Wizard (Tal Rasha set allows me to pick whatever skills I like, as long as they cover all 4 elements) and FotH Crusader (because FotH is cool). But I've barely played the game over 4 hours for 2 years, because the game currently has nothing that I find remotely exciting.

 

23 minutes ago, Max_Battle said:

But when people get uber competitive and start analysing the stats and gear to the nth degree, something is always going to come out on top as "the best".

 Is it not?

A game having a "pinnacle" build that tops all others is an inevitable outcome. Developers cannot foresee what players can do, because during testing of the game, there are only so many things the testers can do. It's like strategies in speedrunning. When speedrunners discover something that allows the players to kill the bosses 0,5% fastest than before, all other speedrunners will use it.

That is probably why GGG change their meta builds all the times to avoid making some few builds the kings and queens for too long. And I have issues with overpowered runewords in Diablo 2 because they are overpowered.

Competitively, everyone wants the best advantages possible, and that's normal and expected.

For players like me, I would still go after builds that fit what I want to play first, whether that build being powerful comes second.

 

Wouldn't it be kinda nice to have a game mode where captain skills and Upgrades cannot be used? Like, just playing the ships as they are bought and moduled?

Edited by Paladinum

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9 minutes ago, Paladinum said:

A game having a "pinnacle" build that tops all others is an inevitable outcome.

I guess that's the essence of the question of my OP.

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The thing is, if you want multiple builds to be viable, you need to ensure they can work well together within the meta. There are some builds which complement others, and some which do not work with others, and some which just edge out all’s the other builds.

Case in point: A BB survival build would work alongside a secondary BB build, supporting each other. Survivability taking the hits while Secondary does the damage.

Survivability can support a sniper build, taking the hits at mid range and keeping enemies spotted while sniper takes them out from long range.

However, a sniper cannot support a secondary build very effectively, a secondary build will either die alone if they try to push, or do minimal damage if they stay safe at range. Secondary builds are often dependent on other ships supporting them. Well, most ships require support at times, but snipers arguable require the least, beyond spotting.

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I wonder if the problem isn't the presence or lack of diversity builds, rather the lack of need for them.

There is one game mode - Kill The Other Guy.

That's it. Sure, go cap... whether there's one cap or three, whatever, Kill The Other Guy still wins the game even if your points are 1 and the enemy has 999 points. Kill The Other Guy is the one mode, the one boss and the only thing that actually matters.

You never run out of bullets, you never run out of shells, you never run out of torpedoes, you just keep blazing away until you Kill The Other Guy.

That's one game mode.

Single game modes do not encourage diversity.

Imagine if we had more than KTOG?

Imagine a PvE mode where someone could take a ship or ship skill that replicates the heal zone of various ships in operations? Imagine a game where you run out of ammo and have to resupply?

Imagine the birth of the Support Ship Build.

People choose to play healers in other games.

Imagine a scout ship that calls in arty? Imagine seeing an enemy BVR and knowing your dispersion is +20% to hit it because someone "lazed" it for you?

Imagine if the scout and the shooter got equal xp for the damage done?

Imagine the Birth of the Arty Spotter Ship Build.

 

But no.

We have one game mode.

KTOG.

Pinnacle builds come with the territory.

And it doesn't have to be the way.

Bring back Cherry Blossom for a start!

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13 minutes ago, Paladinum said:

Wouldn't it be kinda nice to have a game mode where captain skills and Upgrades cannot be used? Like, just playing the ships as they are bought and moduled?

Wouldn't it give BB & CV the advantage over the other 2 classes?

BBs would only suffer the full fire & flood duration, while CVs only would lose a bit of plane HP & returning speed. None of those are detrimental enough.

Most DDs (except UK) need the Prop mod, or else they are dead if for example; they try to stop to hide in smoke, but then they get blind-torped because they fail to accelerate quickly enough to dodge. The UK DDs have the built-in Prop mod, while the French & the Soviet DDs can just keep flooring the gas pedal throughout the battle.

A lot of Cruisers also need the Prop mod, or they are as good as the nerfed HIV. DM for example; would be just the archaic, and overrated version of Salem had it not been for the UU. Make Salem Great Again I suppose.:Smile_trollface:

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So long that mechanism only favor , reward, and encourage damage dealing, range sniping, farming, then nothing will come out of any , any !! Its a game its suppose to be fair for all but then its not , Some class of ship and some individual ship are clearly set and spec to be better at these and player will exploit that  ( its how the game score, and reward ) and some ship are set and spec to do other thing well but good deeds are not in turn rewarded and in fact in most cases punished and penalized , Cruiser doing AA support, DD doing their flank screening, CL doing Area Denial, BB doing Tanking , and CV ( trying ) to do CAP ...

Specialization, we do not see real Specialization, we just ass how to made the ship able to effect more damage dealing and some else along the way , and its only really benefiting the ones who already had the good base value and the margin of error to play wit, those who do not already good at it, got the sour end

Edited by Mechfori

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1 hour ago, Max_Battle said:

I guess that's the essence of the question of my OP.

It's not like WG are active on balancing ships (only tech tree ships) and introducing new ships that could shake the meta (the new ships would either be in the meta or be in the firing range of the meta).

:Smile_trollface:

 

34 minutes ago, Reinhard_of_Avercland said:

Wouldn't it give BB & CV the advantage over the other 2 classes?

Well... Give me Respawn TDM mode then, WeeGee :fish_glass: Because cap points are, contrary to what they are, pointless.

Edited by Paladinum

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If you want to know how I think of "build diversity" in an RPG, I say: "If all builds, excluding the truly garbage (little to no thinking behind them), break the game, it's a good game*".

*only ever applicable to single-player games

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2 hours ago, Max_Battle said:

But when people get uber competitive and start analysing the stats and gear to the nth degree, something is always going to come out on top as "the best".

Is it not?

Meta build was formed because it best exploit 1 particular game mechanic. and define how a game best be played.

in WoWs most crucial game mechanic revolve around concealment. because map design was lack of Cover or shoot blocker, ships is slow, and weapons can fire from map edge to another

 

People that were competitive obv the one that notice such thing. People that play the game hunderds of hours is the one that notice such thing, so they will be the one that define the meta

Random Potato can play the game how they like, but People that play the game religiusly is the one that know how to "proper" play the game

 

I mean if someone play even a measly 2.000 Battle in this game, They obv fcking Invested and being competitive. Most other game you play might not even reach few hunderds hour of gameplay

This game has span for 5 years, the one that still play this game, obv have some competitive spirits. The map still the same, The mechanic still the same, The ships are much more the same, so the Meta was known and nothing left to discover

Edited by humusz
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23 minutes ago, humusz said:

Meta build was formed because it best exploit 1 particular game mechanic. and define how a game best be played.

in WoWs most crucial game mechanic revolve around concealment. because map design was lack of Cover or shoot blocker, ships is slow, and weapons can fire from map edge to another

 

People that were competitive obv the one that notice such thing. People that play the game hunderds of hours is the one that notice such thing, so they will be the one that define the meta

Random Potato can play the game how they like, but People that play the game religiusly is the one that know how to "proper" play the game

 

I mean if someone play even a measly 2.000 Battle in this game, They obv fcking Invested and being competitive. Most other game you play might not even reach few hunderds hour of gameplay

This game has span for 5 years, the one that still play this game, obv have some competitive spirits. The map still the same, The mechanic still the same, The ships are much more the same, so the Meta was known and nothing left to discover

Exactly, so build diversity is a myth?

Because that's what it seems like.

I mean even a goal or philosophy, it's just not a realistic expectation.

Is it?

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14 minutes ago, Max_Battle said:

Exactly, so build diversity is a myth?

Because that's what it seems like.

I mean even a goal or philosophy, it's just not a realistic expectation.

Is it?

In this game ?

Yes - because much of the game mechanic were stale and unchanged for years.

 

some game can achive it, by constantly reconstruct and rebuild "meta"

for Example : Dota 2 Meta were changed every Year, - They  re-balans every hero, and item, overhoul economy, masively introduce lot of things, etc. as the result it feel the game meta constantly refreshed.

SC2 have another approach, They at least managed to made almost equaly balanced Meta build for each of the race. for example Terran in SC2 have Mech Army and Bio Army. each have its own pace and strenght. Blizzard was indeed one of the best when it come to Balancing

so, its not a myth. It even can have multiple approach. but Balance is certainly not easily achivable by any game Developer. 

Edited by humusz
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35 minutes ago, Max_Battle said:

Exactly, so build diversity is a myth?

Because that's what it seems like.

I mean even a goal or philosophy, it's just not a realistic expectation.

Is it?

Playing with only rare items will only allow you to play Hard or Master. When it's Torment and higher, you must play sets and legendary items to get through. Where in Diablo 3 do you accept that certain builds wouldn't be able to get through certain GRs?

Same thing here. At which level of play do you accept that certain builds would not become the competitive, super-unicum level plays? This question is asked because, like you asked, it's unrealistic to expect all builds to be viable at all levels of play.

At casual level, all builds can be viable. The higher it gets, the more builds will drop off.

"Fun" or "power"?

Edited by Paladinum

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16 minutes ago, Max_Battle said:

Exactly, so build diversity is a myth?

Because that's what it seems like.

I mean even a goal or philosophy, it's just not a realistic expectation.

Is it?

@humusz has basically covered it all.

It's 100% possible.

The problem is that there needs to be choices that can work almost as well as each other with the same ship.

WG is horrible at doing this, the closest are DDs... DDs you can have debates with the current system about whether to take DE or BFT for example.

WG doesn't know how to balance well so doesn't know how to build variety.

One of the crucial things is to make sure it isn't just a simple binary choice between two skills but between philosophies and play styles.

This then needs to tie into the core game mechanics. A DD that doesn't get concealment for example is automatically at a disadvantage in cap contesting and spotting. That then impacts the gameplay for the team. So it needs something pretty big to trade for that, there isn't really anything which is why CE is a default pick for most DDs.

The new skill rework gets this all wrong, they have designed skills for specific playstyles that only benefit particular ship niches within a class.

Warships is actually a great game for a decent build diversity system but the build options need to be viable. The 'standard' builds need to be not so far ahead of the other builds.

Then pros will run cookie cutter builds but there will be a range of viable, functional builds that are almost as effective or perhaps more effective in average players hands.

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The only game I see real build Diversity these days is Path of Exile and that's because of the depth of the Character Skill tree and the wide possibility of skill gem combo + item + buff / debuff skill , even a start up gem you pick up at start of the game can be build to be mainstay ... any game that's combat based ( except strategy game ) ultimately center around 2 thing , ability to stay alive and then ability to inflict the maximum amount of damage over the minimal amount of time ( and towards maximum number of opponents, but this do not apply to WOWS )

And the simple truth and a simple fact for WOWS / WG is that they cannot made each and every class / ship perform to the same level and not even within the same class or even the same ship with different build , so there will always be that one build that simply satisfy and people will continue to spec those build , and play that play ( say Sniping , HE Spamming ) not because its what they like to play or its that they enjoy it, its just that its the only that WORK

Build Diversity center around ability to spec and build but still allow the same degree of offensive capacity, defensive capacity, and endurance , and clearly we know otherwise

Edited by Mechfori

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58 minutes ago, S4pp3R said:

WG is horrible at doing this, the closest are DDs... DDs you can have debates with the current system about whether to take DE or BFT for example.

Yeah so I've seen you and Taipan discuss this.

What else COULD they do that would offer an option like this?

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13 minutes ago, Max_Battle said:

Yeah so I've seen you and Taipan discuss this.

What else COULD they do that would offer an option like this?

heaps of things...

it's a moot point looking at one skill

I also haven't bothered to look at my uneffit notes on it anytime recently so I can't remember specifics.

I think my last idea iteration was a branching idea, can't spend 4 points on a utility skill without spending 3 or something on utility first.

Then make all the 4 pointers offer something interesting that forces the player into build types.

But that's all shelved, if I ever get time I'll see what I come up with after their rework.

Edited by S4pp3R

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1 minute ago, S4pp3R said:

Then make all the 4 pointers offer something interesting that forces the player into build types.

Or simplify it.

Remove CE and 2 other skills.

Making it just 3 level four skill.

 

Players can get 2 level 4 skills but gives up other good skills in level 2 and 3.

or

Get 1 level 4 skill while maintaining the good skills in level 2 and 3.

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2 minutes ago, S0und_Theif said:

Or simplify it.

Remove CE and 2 other skills.

Making it just 3 level four skill.

 

Players can get 2 level 4 skills but gives up other good skills in level 2 and 3.

or

Get 1 level 4 skill while maintaining the good skills in level 2 and 3.

Yeah that works and would 'trim the fat' of captain skills.

I prefer more variety personally but I can't argue with your logic

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1 hour ago, S4pp3R said:

I prefer more variety personally but I can't argue with your logic

WG should give up CE. And bake the CE in on all the ships from T5 to T10. (T5 to T10 because ±2 MM. If it is ±1MM then T8 to T10.)

Replace the CE with something else.

CE is too generic and it is the only captain skill that is not reworked nor even re-positioned on all ship classes.

Most players (if not, everyone) will chose this captain skill. It defeats the goal and purpose of "diversification".

 

At the moment, simplifying the captain skill will make their rushed work workable on the 0.10.0 deadline.

They can add the last 3 level four captain skills on a later patch.

 

This "rework" of theirs feels a bit like CV rework all over again.

Rushed. It will come out either half-baked or too raw to work.

The goal and purpose of "diversification" is defeated.

Edited by S0und_Theif

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On 12/20/2020 at 4:04 PM, Max_Battle said:

Exactly, so build diversity is a myth?

Because that's what it seems like.

I mean even a goal or philosophy, it's just not a realistic expectation.

Is it?

I think so.

The way I see it, wows has different design philosophy with other rpg games mentioned, I mean those have like what, 20-30 class max? Whereas wows has 200-300 ships. 

So the big part of wows diversity is in the base ship stats itself, while cmdr build just small extension of it, either small boost to ship strengths or mitigation of its weaknesses

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