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S4pp3R

I'm trying to work out how people think Massa is the best...

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When there's North Carolina...

Honestly, she's far better in my opinion.

So let's go folks, text-based war of logic.

NCs guns are awesome, most of the time which is way more often than Massa.

Secondaries are a meme, all that Massa really has going for her is her armour scheme.

NCs guns trump Massa's tankiness because if uou want tanky, bring a Vlad...

Statistically Massa does better? I wonder why?

I would rate NC as best T8 BB, followed by WH40K twins and then Massa, then Amagi...

Lenin and Vlad are arguably up there too but I haven't played either enough to comment.

I 100% admit my IJN bias here, I love Amagi and I find her far more tanky than NC in many situations but NCs guns are great and her turret setup is way better.

Change my mind or confirm my bias... (Between Massa and NC)

Edited by S4pp3R

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Massa's popularity may due to the recommendations of various CCs or among players, that heal with 50% cooldown reduction can save a potatoes life better, and normal players might not be able to fully utilize the accuracy of NC, so Massa being a more newbie friendly ship will be more favored

I was spoiled by the 2.0 sigma of NC so Massa isn't that attractive to me, I rent her for a day couple years ago and she just won't click to me (or due to me not good enough back in the days), I rather pick Georgia as she is truly the unique one among the second US BB split line (Massa, Georgia, Ohio). 

Most T8 tech tree BBs are enjoyable to play/grind for me, except Kansas

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Well unlike Bismarck & Tirpitz, Massa actually has AA that shreds Lexington & Implacable's planes easier. Massa is also somewhat more resistant to fire, I mean the Germans are easier to burn down. This makes Massa a popular brawler kind of BB. Sure Massa's secondaries have weak HE pen, but nowadays secondaries are all about spamming fires.

NC is a goofball in my book. The slow shell speed makes it incredibly difficult to hit anything at range other than BBs. But I've been spoiled by the fast shell speed on German & Soviet BBs, so.... Her AA is actually pretty good.

Edited by Reinhard_of_Avercland

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Massa is not stronger at all in my opinion. In my collection of T8 BBs:

- Odin has the highest win rate

- Richelieu holds my damage record

- Vlady still A hull but also has high WR with a handful of games

- NC and Amagi are both comfortable ships

Massa is doing soso. Now, the only one I don't like is the Monarchy.

 

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2 hours ago, S4pp3R said:

Change my mind or confirm my bias... (Between Massa and NC) 

Well I am of the opinion that if you are trying to snipe in a Massa, you are doing it wrong. Get an Alabama instead.

I think you are underselling Massa's advantages. It is not one thing that makes the Massa great, rather it is the whole package put together.

Massa's fast heals is really great for survivability because it allows Mass to survive more intense shelling than one would expect. This allows her to make more daring plays which would have killed other BBs.

Then you have the Secondaries, which are more than just a meme if you build for it. And you don't even need a lot of investment, just AFT and Secondary Battery mod 1 is sufficient, thanks to Massa's innate Secondary accuracy boost and good range. Together with the heals, this allows you to play very aggressively or push caps when the opportunity calls for it. Sure a Vlad can tank, but can it brawl or threaten DDs and cruisers with its Secondaries? No it can't. Neither does it have good AA, but the Massa does have good enough AA to make CVs cry.

And talking about CVs, the Massa does have another big advantage that you neglected to mention - Massa has a very tight turning circle for a BB. Therefore It is very, very easy to maneuver and mitigate damage from CV strikes in a Massa, and coupled with its good AA you can see why CVs don't like to touch you. It is also very good at torpedo beating for that same reason and even for gun duels the tight turning circle has allowed me to dodge a fair number of salvoes simply because the enemy didn't expect me to complete my turn that fast.

So what you have is an agile BB, with good secondaries and AA and good survivability, in exchange for slightly worse accuracy. But if your playstyle is to sit at one location and snipe, then yeah an NC or Amagi would be better for you.

Edited by Thyaliad
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Massa is still useless by someone who knows how to use Roma very easily.

You can net 11k damage if your dispersion is good at hitting front Hull. Much as NC.

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NC and Amagi equally good imo. Massa is for the massochist and it is situational especial on our server meta.

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Pretty sure I saw a lot of them in the last T8 ranked...along with all the other premiums that makes tech tree feel like suffering.

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I think some has the illusion-of-thinking that, "if its a premium / gold ship, it must be better than it's tech tree equivalent", hence I must have it. But that's not the case most of the time. Especially in WoWs.

A side effect of this is, that the player skips the basics and fundamentals of playing low and mid tier. Hence the poor play in high tier games.

 

The second reason why Massa is a favorite / popular is because of botting or RMTing. T8 premium ship is their minimum requirement to to be able to farm resources.

The second reason is more of a WG issue for not clamping down on the botting and RMT-ing issue. WG does not perma ban them. Hence a broken spreadsheet data.

 

The third "probable" reason is probably for the memes.

But the Bismarck (a tech tree ship) and Tirpitz (a premium ship) are way better secondary memes than the Massachusetts.

Edited by S0und_Theif

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Massachusetts is reliant upon you being able to be aggressive AND not be focused to death. Rarely can the team you're on be relied upon, so Massachusetts often struggles to be allowed the reckless aggression that secondaries need to cause damage. 
When allowed to be aggressive, with a team that is able to make you less of a target (or an enemy team that can't prioritize the angry BB plodding towards them) you are able to close the distance significantly easier and start making that flank scatter like roaches. 

However, there are more than enough teamwork-heavy ships already that I don't blame you for not wanting to play more of the same. 

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8 hours ago, sfcgx3 said:

- Richelieu holds my damage record

Shit jokes

shot-20.12.05_14.40.12-0053.jpg

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Well for me I can either play a Massachussets or I can look at the North Carolina in the preview on the tech tree

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10 hours ago, rookieFTW said:

I rather pick Georgia as she is truly the unique one among the second US BB split line (Massa, Georgia, Ohio). 

See Georgia is ok but at same time I'd still rather play other T9 BBs...

But nice to see someone else prefers NC, lol.

10 hours ago, Reinhard_of_Avercland said:

NC is a goofball in my book. The slow shell speed makes it incredibly difficult to hit anything at range other than BBs.

Massa has same shells so not sure how that'd bias Massa 😉

(Yes I realise you are more talking in relation to other T8s).

Agreed though, the one thing I find annoying at times about NC is how slow the shells are.

10 hours ago, sfcgx3 said:

Massa is doing soso. Now, the only one I don't like is the Monarchy.

Yeah I wasn't much of a fan but from memory my stats were respectable in her (no doubt thanks to HE just being too reliable).

 

9 hours ago, Thyaliad said:

Well I am of the opinion that if you are trying to snipe in a Massa, you are doing it wrong. Get an Alabama instead.

...

Alabama has worse dispersion than NC...

I'm not trying to snipe in Massa, but regardless most of the game is played at 16-17+km at T8+...

'If you build for it'

Yes I have on Massa, and I'm sorry but I disagree, it's still memes.

You spend at least half your captain perks, even more for a situational combat increase out to 11-12km...

Even then 95% of games you will do far more damage with main guns.

So yes, IMO it is just memes.

As for the heals, cooldown is better but it's 0.5% not 0.66...

Sorry, I still think Massa is overrated.

9 hours ago, dejiko_nyo said:

Massa is for the massochist and it is situational especial on our server meta.

Agreed.

8 hours ago, S0und_Theif said:

I think some has the illusion-of-thinking that, "if its a premium / gold ship, it must be better than it's tech tree equivalent", hence I must have it. But that's not the case most of the time. Especially in WoWs.

Not really, I'd have to double check but last I looked Massa had a significantly higher WR...

8 hours ago, Shimakaze_The_Loli said:

Massachusetts is reliant upon you being able to be aggressive AND not be focused to death.

And this is the thing...

Massa IMO is far more situational and my assessment of secondary ships is 'meh' - main guns are far more effective most of the time.

 

I need to have more of a think before writing the NC script methinks. You have all given me a lot to think about, thanks...

And genuine thanks Thya for giving me a decent rebuttal, I like questioning my own conclusions.

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For me its entirely the faster heal, because it really does allow players to more easily get away with bad moves, I think it does well because it is very forgiving. You can be even more of a potato in Massa than other BBs and still do ok. Personally I like it for aggressive runs to blow off steam. I very rarely play seriously in it. so for me its all about the meme secondaries and leading charges but I think it's popularity is down to its ease of use.

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For me it comes down to the heal and armour. Get into a good position and you are very hard to remove without at least trading with the enemy, even against T10. The guns are serviceable, the secondaries are a meme (but fun and effective against over extended DDs and light cruisers) but the survivability sets it apart. 

Sure, that means potatoes can survive a few minutes longer, but in the hands of a good player, it has the potential to hold a flank with little assistance in many cases (obviously all bets are off if you're focussed by a CV though) 

Edited by BeardyBandit

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19 hours ago, S4pp3R said:

When there's North Carolina...

Honestly, she's far better in my opinion.

I agree with you, NC is a better ship. She's more accurate and has longer range guns, making her better at the most important aspect of being a BB. She also has a bigger heal. 

However, NC is a balanced BB, while Massa is OP (which is why she is being removed). The reason for this is that Massa performs far better in the hands of a poor player than NC does, and this pushes all of her stats up significantly.

She is one of the most noob friendly ships in the game. Her quick reload heal means poor positioning is less likely to be punished. Her inaccurate guns are actually better for someone who is poor at aiming as they spread the shells out and provide more chance of some damage than a poorly aimed shot with better dispersion. Her excellent torp belt (about three times more effective than NC's belt!) plus her superb AA and small turning circle makes her much less vulnerable to CV's, and poor players tend to get punished by CV's. Lastly of course, her secondaries are highly accurate and require no more input from the player than getting into range - a gun system that does not require the whole point of success with guns (aiming) is the literal definition of noob friendly. 

So what we end up with is a ship that WG has designed to make up for every possible inadequacy of its captain, while also being a BB, the class that is designed to be as simple and forgiving as possible to play. 

Given all this, of course Massa is OP statistically and very popular. A poor player will perform far better in Massa than any other tier 8 BB. Where she isn't OP is in the hands of a good BB player, who will use their skill to minimise the weaknesses of other ships they play that have better main batteries while also using their skill and knowledge to take advantage of the power of those main batteries. 

What this means when various players play Massa, is that good players will wonder what the fuss is all about, while poor players will think she is absolutely brilliant! 

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1 hour ago, Moggytwo said:

The reason for this is that Massa performs far better in the hands of a poor player than NC does, and this pushes all of her stats up significantly.

That is the conclusion I was moving towards prior to your post...

Although... I wouldn't quite put it like this:

1 hour ago, Moggytwo said:

What this means when various players play Massa, is that good players will wonder what the fuss is all about, while poor players will think she is absolutely brilliant! 

Because it isn't entirely inconceivable for good players to find her great as well.

Having said that, this is why when I do ship reviews I have ratings for noobs and skills as I'm a firm believer that experiences may vary conaiderably for some ships.

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Well, I don't know about Massa in Randoms, but in Co-op she is quite an excellent brawling BB....

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1 hour ago, S4pp3R said:

Because it isn't entirely inconceivable for good players to find her great as well.

Having said that, this is why when I do ship reviews I have ratings for noobs and skills as I'm a firm believer that experiences may vary conaiderably for some ships.

Oh it's a good ship in good hands, and many players of all skill levels find secondary BB's quite fun, so it's popular with most people.  However, in terms of sheer power for good players, she isn't as strong as other ships with better main batteries.

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