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S4pp3R

New Captain Skills - quick analysis...

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G'day Folks,

So I've had a chance to look at the tweaked captains skills... Below is my quick-take on the key 'bad' ones. If I haven't mentioned a skill, I'm most likely waiting to see how it pans out.

I like the idea of reworking the Captain Skills system but not a huge fan of their 'improved' skills.

Overall they are still keeping the direct damage buff skills which are just a super bad idea. Let me explain...

The captain skills system favours veterans in the game through favouring those who know the system and know what to get and also through giving a combat advantage if you've played more (and have more points).

By adding more direct damage skills into that equation, more combat advantage is gained the better the player.

Concealment already does this, so do things like DE and BFT (for small guns). However Concealment aside, DE and BFT don't add that much of a difference. When you start adding more buffs into the mix you can start getting a system where one veteran captain with the right mix has an effective DPM advantage of 30-50% in the same ship. That completely screws with a core mechanic in World of Warship - knowing your enemy. If you aren't experienced, you will look at your shiny freshly mod-unlocked T9 DD and think you can go toe-to-toe with the same ship on the enemy team. 

But because they have the right upgrades and captain skills, they now out-DPM you effectively by upto 30-40%. You will notice he's shooting faster, setting fires faster and hurting more... In the same ship... ...

Yep - really bad.

Shifting a play-style from tankiness to speed/agility or to AA or even range is ok from a balance and fairness perspective. Just flat giving a direct combat advantage to more experienced and better players - that's just a bad move.

 

Another problem in this new system is a continued bias towards certain niche play-styles at the expense of skills that are useful for many build options. Basically each ship will have more of a cookie-cutter build that's different to others. This is not choice, this is a smokescreen that gives the illusion of build variety. Build variety comes from options to play a given ship, not from each ship having one cookie-cutter build.

Some of the skills are great but some are just blatantly going to be used by one ship in the class, from all the different tiers... And that's really dumb.

 

And of course they've got a chunk of skills that just favour certain playstyles that people don't need encouragement to play; being sniping... What a really silly thing to do. If you encourage it more, then your vaunted 'secondary' and 'brawler' ships will become more useless, not matter how many revamped skills you give them.

 

To the skills... ...

 

CVs

Focused and Interceptor

Changes the way fighter consumable functions – Need time to test, they are both interesting

Piercing Armament

Buffs AP Rocket/ Bomb damage – Bad, bad, bad… Direct damage skills are bad, AP aircraft armaments are enough of a problem as is without adding a buff to it.

Stealthy

Improves ship detectability, DCP reload time but makes aircraft take longer to return. This is a completely crazy skill that has so many questions around it.

Just ship detect? Why trade all of this for DCP and detectability? Sounds like a GZ secondary build skill.

Get rid of concealment improvements and bake them into everything, this skill has a garbage trade that doesn’t even relate to the ability – why!?!?!?! Because they want to buff specific ship play styles - basically they're making more cookie-cutter builds for niche ships. Why even have a skill if it's not in consideration for 95% of ships? Like honestly - what a stupid idea!!!!!

BBs

Emergency Repair Spec

Improves DCP/Heal reload by 3%. Almost pointless to take but it’ll probably see use. 10% is definitely something you would want to take, 3-5% is ‘meh’. If you could stack it with other options, yeah sure but the consumables skills don’t apply to DCP/Heal and you aren't going to take the consumables upgrade in slot 5 - that's the concealment slot.

Armor Piercing Battleship

One of the stupidest skills around, buffs AP shell damage for increased fire/flood. Will highly benefit specific ships like Soviet BBs or those with improved DCP/Heal and an AP bias, not to mention snipers. Again the negative isn’t even related to the skill, isn’t even in the same realms and encourages a certain style of crud play. Get rid of it.

Marksman

Buffs dispersion when no visible enemies within spotted range.

Stupid skill, encourages sniping, will benefit all BBs, including those that don’t need more accuracy buffs like Slava, Yamato and Thunderer.

Really REALLY dumb skill idea.

CL/As

Demoman

Increases HE/SAP damage by 10%, makes 149+mm gun ships have worse concealment. Crud skill, direct damage buffs should be removed but this is basically buffing long-range gameplay and smol-gun cruisers.

Using concealment in any way to balance a skill leads to longer range gameplay and that’s really bad for the game.

Armor Piercing Cruiser

190mm+ guns get a damage buff. Really stupid and direct damage buff skill.

DDs

Armor Piercing

Same thing again, bad

Cautious

Buffs ship speed while not spotted, nerfs reload all the time.

Really stupid trade off that means that certain ships it’ll be an auto-pick like IJN torp boats. Like they needed an even worse reload though.

 

Honestly - they haven't changed anything significantly, they just tweaked a few values compared to the earlier iteration. I'm still not impressed with WGs design sense.

Like honestly this set of tweaks just annoys me more than anything, I just can't comprehend how they think direct damage, sniping-biased or niche-pick skills are a good idea?

If I get time at some point I have a Captain Skills Un-Eff-It half-written script somewhere, I'll knock it up into a video... However time is not something I have a lot of *looks at New Mexico BLUF that's half-finished and has been that way for 3 weeks*

 

Why are you so bad at this WG? I just don't get it...

Edited by S4pp3R
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Well said, I couldn't agree more. Concealment upgrades and commander perks should not be a thing, since they are essential picks for basically every ship. And, as you say, damage buffs are just always a bad idea and don't encourage more diverse builds since it will inevitably become an essential pick too.

Edited by blauflamme22
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I'm definitely in agreement about your main premise of this rework increasing the skill gap.  It clearly will, to a greater or lesser degree depending on the ship you happen to be sailing.  As an experienced player, I look at these skill trees and immediately start working out playstyles and builds to be able to take advantage of any greater advantages than I may currently have.  I'm sure many other experienced players are doing the same thing, and this does not auger well for less experienced players out there.

I think the iterations they have done since the initial announcement have been in the right direction though.  The balance has definitely improved.  It will likely continue to do so, although there will no doubt be some unbalanced skills in there at release (there are some pretty unbalanced skills in the current tree though, to be fair).

I think where we disagree is on the buffing of specific playstyles being a bad thing.  I don't think it is bad for the game that each specific play styles are getting more unique skills - in fact I think that is one of the primary benefits of the skill rework.  Your argument seems to be that this will promote a bad meta by creating more back line sniping ships, and I definitely disagree with that.  Firstly, I think this meta is created by the BB population imbalance, and that needs to be addressed by somehow reducing the BB population (which means making BB's less comfortable to sail, currently they are like playing warships while holding your favourite childhood cuddly toy, and that feeling of relative security compared to other ship types is what keeps the population far too high).  WG have shown no real inclination to fix this issue though, and so the BB dominated slow and static meta will continue, and captain skill changes will have next to no effect on it.

Also, one of the primary beneficiaries of the skill rework seem to be secondary BB's, who are getting the biggest buffs of any ship type, being able to now basically take a full survivability build and a full secondary build at the same time (!), while also getting the ability to engage multiple ships at once while using man sec, and having their secondary base range increased.

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57 minutes ago, S4pp3R said:

 Armor Piercing Battleship

Base detection range of BBs is huge, yes, however, to the ships that are concerned, their gun range is even farther.

On the same vein, "Marksman" skill does basically the same thing, buffing snipers.

WG's argument is like "but if you shoot once, your detection is increased". But the skills said "BASE detection radius". BASE! Do they even know what they are talking about?

Maybe they want to encourage subs and DDs to go all the way to the backline of the enemy team? I don't understand.

 

1 hour ago, S4pp3R said:

Piercing Armament

Buffs AP Rocket/ Bomb damage – Bad, bad, bad… Direct damage skills are bad, AP aircraft armaments are enough of a problem as is without adding a buff to it.

AP bombs are currently the thing that make MvR borderline OP. And they want to buff the ship even more.

*sigh*

 

1 hour ago, S4pp3R said:

Demoman

The stupid thing is which gun sizes would gain the full benefits of this skill. Even the German 150 wouldn't gain full benefits from this, only the likes of Atlanta, Flint, Colbert, Small-length and Austin, which are, like, 10% of all CLs in the game.

Adding 10% damage to 127/130 mm shells only make them as good as 150/152 mm shells.

This skill is pointless.

 

1 hour ago, S4pp3R said:

Armor Piercing

WG adding a skill that 90% of DDs won't gain any benefit. Smart. /s

 

1 hour ago, S4pp3R said:

Cautious

Well, this can be a skill that torpedo DDs should pick, and Dazzling (such great name /s ) and Fearless should be the pick for gunboats.

I won't exactly call this pointless.

 

Still disappointed there is no skill to increase AA range for DDs/CLs. Like, that would make AA escort mean something. That would make Seattle mean something and not a speed bump to Wusster.

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Overall , simply a lazy job from WG, so many of the skill still just taken straight from the old one and shown their over simplified trying to be generalized for all class of ship mentality , here's my quick take on the DD skill , yet to try to number crunch the others

1 point skill

Loader - do any DD really need such a skill, if those fast loading gun need a change of shell , the just fire off the already loaded ones, if its the slow loading guns like IJN, well those DD really do not use their guns much unless absolutely pressed for it , a useless skill .

Gunner - a clear case of favoring the BB when those big heavy turret could get +20% when all others only got +15% , this surely discriminate

Liquidation , OKrish new skill but the number do not quite stack up , might or might not help too early to tell and it do not help with the most needed part for Torp, ability to hit more consistently

all others just basically old skills

2 point skill

Pyro, a discrimination against DD again and a flat nerf to all HE yes, its universal for all class of ships but its detrimental to DD since their guns by default had only single digit fire chance so a reduction of 1% is way more pronounce compared to BB and Cruiser  , made the skill practically not worth it for most unless you can dump hugh amount of shells onto enemy within very short time frame, aka those HE spamming CL ( even they might not care about only 1 % )

Torpedo Armamment Engineer, just as the change to upgrade this is practically useless for most Torp who do not had the base value to benefit, and made the fast torp just more OP

AP Destroyer, too specialized even for a DD , and this do not give penetration buff so you are still firing and not getting anything unless enemy is dumb enough to be close and broadside ( which then you might as well use torp ) Oh and you got to had a gun that's good with AP from the start ( read , very few DD guns are good at that )

others basically just old skill ..

3 point skill

Main Battery / AA expert, flat nerf to old skill, bread and butter for so many DD and yet , this is not going to bode well with gunboat players at all and yet no other skill to balance out ( CE already nerfed, so you are talking double nerf on guns )

others, just old skills moved around

4 point skill

Cautious, an interesting one , would benefit fast DD and the really slow reloading guns torpedo boats ( aka mostly IJN , they do not really use their guns anyway ) but anything in the middle it might be too much of a sacrifice. Time will tell

Fearless - useful for gunboat , pretty much useless for torpedo boats and those with slow reload guns , again promote gunboat spamming which already is a thorn to so many in game

Dazzling, sounds OK but really I doubt its useful at all , if you are gunboat firing off at range you had yourself positioned, and if you are torpedo boat that got spotted when you closing in , getting in range, you are too close to benefit

 

In short for DD players, mostly nerf and not much new one added that can balance out , and still do not offer viable alternative build , especially not for the Torpedo Boat variety , say if am playing Gearing or YY , wanting gunboat build , well , some skill but not good enough , wanting torpedo boat build, not even any where near enough skill to further specialize ... and this goes for other DD too , mid tier DD are even less capable to be suitably captained since their base value is, well, not providing the base value enough

 

And on a side note, Royal Navy CL are singled out and being discriminated against , again - Demoman not effective yet will not benefit from AP Cruiser , just tells ...

Edited by Mechfori

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gunner (reworked expert marksman):
  • Lets give Kremlin more turret transverse while giving Yamato the least

steady (torp protection buff):

  • I wonder which ship already has the 2nd best torp protection. And for some reason only CVs gets a skill that counters this. I guess they have a thing against certain torpboats.
emergency repair expert (reworked superintendent):
  • Lets remove everything except the bonus repair party and slightly buff that, oh but a certain BB line still get their bonus DCP.

AP cruiser (increased AP dmg for 190mm+ guns):

  • Lets give cruisers that heavily rely on AP (Mino, Petro, Stalin) more dmg, but for some reason without any downsides. Meanwhile the HE version has  +15% concealment penalty.

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7 hours ago, Moggytwo said:

I think where we disagree is on the buffing of specific playstyles being a bad thing. 

Most of your post I agree with so I'll quote the other bits.

No I don't mind buffing specific play styles at all, however having skills for example that only benefit secondary build CVs for example is pointless.

It's buffing one ship, Graf Zepp... Ok maybe somr minor meme builds on a few others but my point stands.

Even then buffing a very specific niche, AP using CAs for example, is unhealthy at best.

Who benefits most from AP CA buffs? Anyone with improved pen angles, top of the list is Stalin and Petro. Ships that seriously don't need it.

I'm sure your counterpoint will be something like Des Moines or other CAs... But when we look at these things we must look to the extremes to see if something is too much...

The more ships consider a skill viable, the better it is for build variety. A skill that benefits one niche ship or playstyle is effectively a waste for the other 90-95% of that class, poor design IMO.

7 hours ago, Moggytwo said:

Also, one of the primary beneficiaries of the skill rework seem to be secondary BB's, who are getting the biggest buffs of any ship type, being able to now basically take a full survivability build and a full secondary build at the same time (!), while also getting the ability to engage multiple ships at once while using man sec, and having their secondary base range increased.

I like a lot of the Captain Skills rework but objectively the strongest buffs will be damage dealing from range.

No amount of secondary spec adjustments can make up for the fact that ships at 20km will be buffed more.

'But they're looking at buffing secondary ranges.' I'll believe that when I see it but it's still moot. Even if they pushed 15-16km, snipers are functioning at 20+km anyways.

I would say net loss for secondary builds, even if they got a secondary range buff.

Direct damage buffs and sniper-biased skills should go, simple.

Time will tell though but that's my read...

 

6 hours ago, Mechfori said:

And on a side note, Royal Navy CL are singled out and being discriminated against , again - Demoman not effective yet will not benefit from AP Cruiser , just tells ...

RN CLs will always be situationally strong I wouldn't stress too much. It also frees them up for other skills.

My guess is their AP DPM is so high at points in the line that buffing it by 10% would blow out everything.

 

7 hours ago, Paladinum said:

Still disappointed there is no skill to increase AA range for DDs/CLs. Like, that would make AA escort mean something. That would make Seattle mean something and not a speed bump to Wusster.

Not surprising really... They keep looking at changing things in this area (subject to any spotting changes) so not surprising...

TBH I would have expected them to hold out on a skill revamp until after they fixed CV spotting but at least this way it's easier to change stuff later with each class having it's own tree.

 

7 hours ago, Verytis said:

Meanwhile the HE version has  +15% concealment penalty.

I wouldn't get tied up on it, they're all bad ideas, at least the HE one won't be taken by every man and his dog.

Concealment is too important IMO

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BTW, TAE is nerfed hard if you read the things carefully. Nerfed very hard for those ships with slow torpedoes. Using 40 to 70 knots as an example, you'd only get 2 to 3.5knots more performance improvement. If you want to match the +5 now, you'd have to have 100knot torps. Right now, torpedoes are about as useful as going to the casino to play pokies. 

That BB sniper skill is unneeded. The improvement in secondary build is definitely needed. 

I did an instant overview on the social wolves discord and right now, most of the 4 point cruiser skills are meh. DDs are actually spoilt for choice. And relooking back, from my initial maybe for nimble, it now looks good because it affords you 15s to get the [content removed] out of there and restealth.

BBs look okay, but the ones buffing ranged combat needs to be removed/crippled/waterlooed.

Profanity. Post edited, user warned.

~Beaufighter

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