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S4pp3R

How could Upgrades be improved?

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So... I've been thinking about upgrades lately.

The reason I started thinking about them was an outgrowth of an idea I had as a quick improvement to the current skill system some time ago... Remove concealment bonuses (at minimum skill + upgrade) and apply it to all ships.

(This would free up 4 skill points for everyone, that would benefit DDs the most, but that's a discussion for another time... A time after the skill rework).

Upgrades...

So this idea came out of 'what would I take over concealment?'

Initially everyone's response would probably be rudder shift. But for BBs why not consumable duration?

So let's take this a step further... What sorts of improvements could be made to upgrades?

Firstly let's set a few conditions, or better put; goals.

1. To provide a realistic choice for different ship classes and niches (e.g. flankers or island campers or secondary ships).

2. Simple and easy to calculate.

3. Fits within the balance of the game as it sits currently (e.g. no major AA buff which would throw out balance for CVs, or no stupid boost to something like radar).

4. Attempt to nominate a slot and fit any suggestion into the current system.

 

I would start with slot 1...

Ruggedised Main Armaments

- Main Armaments are impossible to destroy (but can still be incapacitated)

- +10% to +50% incapacitation length based on weapon size. (adjust % for balance)

- 15% to 30% slower traverse speed

The idea for this one is to provide an option to take against reduced incapacitation MB1. slower traverse and incapacitation chance would need to be tweaked as required. The idea is ships like Jean Bart and possibly some DDs or CAs would be at a serious decision point between this and MB1 and it would possibly free up points spent on PM.

Not sold on the slower traverse speed, could defo scrap that.

 

Slot 2 and Slot 4.

I would have propulsion and rudder options in both slots, prop 30% each, rudder 20% each.

I would split Damcon into 2 types in each slot.

Damage Mitigation mods

- Reduced fire chance

- Reduce flooding chance

Damage Control mods

- Reduced fire duration

- Reduced flood duration

The idea with these two mods is to amplify choices such as Fire Prevention and High Alert while allowing builds without either. By having both choices in both slots, those who go one way will amplify their choice. A ship that is going to stay unseen for longer or isn't going to be focused is more likely to choose chance over duration. A tanky ship is more likely to go with duration but will still consider a combination of fire chance and quick DCP length.

 

Slot 3

Insert range and reload mods here, halved effect compared to slot 6, remove USN unique mods entirely, move traverse mod. Slot 3 becomes accuracy, reload or range.

 

Slot 5

Move Turret Traverse mod into slot 5, buffed more.

Improve torpedo lookout system distance.

Improve consumable mod duration buff.

Hull and Propulsion Optimisation

- Improved turning circle (could even go as higj as 15-20%)

This one would need a lot of testing, the idea is that you may want rudder shift to stack with slot 2 and 4, or you may want to tighten the turns more.

 

Slot 6

I would move legendaries into slot 6, keep reload and range upgrades

 

I haven't crunched numbers on all these or thought about all the niche implications but I feel that a lot of them COULD even possibly give a lot of ships far more choice and maybe even make secondary builds more effective in some situations...

 

Thoughts?

P.S. Please forgive any grammar/spelling, on my phone.

Edited by S4pp3R
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Yes. Remove all the concealment skill. Every sane person knows they are invaluable. By default it is essential. The others, tldr for me at the moment. 

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The current ones are too generic, everyone knows what should be pick. Even WG add new upgrades it did not spice up the variety enough, people still pick the one's that suits the meta. 

The main battery one seems good, maybe max 30%, 50% might bring adverse effects instead

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Not sure we really need a even better torpedo lookout. But I've thought of a new version to achieve a compromise between the old ones.

"Add +0.25km to base detectability of torpedoes for the ship with the module equiped. +0.5km for deep water torps."

Still hurts slower torps more, but without outright ignoring their base detectability. While also hurting faster torps too, instead of being useless against them.

 

I think a few other modules could possibly use more hard numbers rather than percentage modifers too.

Edited by Verytis

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1 hour ago, dejiko_nyo said:

Yes. Remove all the concealment skill. Every sane person knows they are invaluable. By default it is essential. The others, tldr for me at the moment. 

Remove not only in equipment, but also in captain skill.

 

It become a necessity, that everything else is ignored.

Edited by S0und_Theif
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At the moment, everything looks appealing.

I will wait for the numbers and parameters. So that we can look what to buff and what to nerf.

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IMO Module and Captain skill should have clear distinction of what it buff and what it can not. its a game, but it would be nice if its make sense

for example : Demo expert, should be module instead of captain skill. Why ? because Ship captain should not be able to use his Esper like abilities to alter the Chemical Formula of Explosive shell so it become more "fiery".

 

Example in Gunnery :

Captain skill may alter stuff like : Range, Accuracy, Reload....

but not stuff like Damage, debuff, turn rate, recoil or Penetration. (I mean, did he use Hardening magic spell on AP Shell ? IFHECADABRA - such thing is just weird) - it should be Ship module upgrades instead.

Edited by humusz

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6 hours ago, S0und_Theif said:

At the moment, everything looks appealing.

I will wait for the numbers and parameters. So that we can look what to buff and what to nerf.

Yeah I'm holding out on my assessment of the skills rework, but as for my ideas above, no numbers anytime soon! lol.

 

4 hours ago, humusz said:

IMO Module and Captain skill should have clear distinction of what it buff and what it can not. its a game, but it would be nice if its make sense

for example : Demo expert, should be module instead of captain skill. Why ? because Ship captain should not be able to use his Esper like abilities to alter the Chemical Formula of Explosive shell so it become more "fiery".

 

Example in Gunnery :

Captain skill may alter stuff like : Range, Accuracy, Reload....

but not stuff like Damage, debuff, turn rate, recoil or Penetration. (I mean, did he use Hardening magic spell on AP Shell ? IFHECADABRA - such thing is just weird) - it should be Ship module upgrades instead.

This is interesting and something I hadn't thought about (I don't really care about realism in games...) but makes a lot of sense.

To be honest, there's a lot of the captain perk system that really shouldn't be a thing but has been done to encourage progression because that's a way to keep people invested in the game. Sadly a common thing for 'FTP' games.

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9 hours ago, rookieFTW said:

The main battery one seems good, maybe max 30%, 50% might bring adverse effects instead

Yeah, I shoulda probably left % out of the suggestion - don't get bogged down on the numbers, it's more about the trade offs...

 

8 hours ago, Verytis said:

Not sure we really need a even better torpedo lookout. But I've thought of a new version to achieve a compromise between the old ones.

"Add +0.25km to base detectability of torpedoes for the ship with the module equiped. +0.5km for deep water torps."

Still hurts slower torps more, but without outright ignoring their base detectability. While also hurting faster torps too, instead of being useless against them.

 

I think a few other modules could possibly use more hard numbers rather than percentage modifers too.

Yeah see something like that would work.

I like the idea the it is more effective against stealthier torps but still effective against most.

The trick would be making it viable but still make consumables mod worth taking as well.

I don't think the consumables mod is enough at the moment. I think it needs 15% and maybe even something like 'doesn't apply to radar' or something. Because the idea is sound but I reckon it should be enough to consider it as a good idea for any ship with a heal, as opposed to how it would be with the current CS removed - picked for radar.

There's a lot of potential for interesting mods in slot 5 under my idea and even some room in slot 1.

Currently:

Slot 1 - Armaments durability

Slot 2, 4 - Damage mitigation (direct or through agility)

Slot 3 - armaments effectiveness

Slot 5 - x factor.

Slot 6 - armaments effectiveness, playstyle magnification

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The recent ugrades to the equipment in WoT is instructive. 

They increased the number of different equipment by maybe 100%, people still use a very narrow range of them which are meta. 

Some extreme builds are possible but they are very rarely used.

There are a lot more different options open for ships because of the better map design and more varied ways you can play ships, ie not fighting over the 3 choke-points on any one map.

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47 minutes ago, Puggsley said:

The recent ugrades to the equipment in WoT is instructive. 

They increased the number of different equipment by maybe 100%, people still use a very narrow range of them which are meta. 

Some extreme builds are possible but they are very rarely used.

There are a lot more different options open for ships because of the better map design and more varied ways you can play ships, ie not fighting over the 3 choke-points on any one map.

That was my thinking.

There are still a variety of ways to build in WoT but the problem is they've got a few too many 'super effective' mods like verstabs, reload, aim and vents, less that there isn't variety.

Warships has less of this issue but less options.

Reload/Range is an example of a decent choice, concealment vs torpedo detection is an example of a bad choice.

I've still got a lot of work to go on this idea but wanted to see if anyone had any cool crazy ideas... Come on guys!!!!

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Giving the ones in Slot 6 penalties that matter. It's pretty braindead to choose Main Battery Mod. 3 for most BBs and CRs, or the torp one for many DDs. Or to some people, FCS Mod. 1. They should have big penalties so that players would even consider not using one at all.

AA and Secondary Upgrades should become more prevalent, like the AA in Slot 6 should give some range as well.

Also, Concealment Mod in Slot 5 is so go-to, it's basically the only "option".

 

Spoiler

Unique Upgrades should be able to be used by ships of the entire line, and there should be 3 of them for each line. Like, in a separate slot or something.

What should they do? One will improve upon what the line already excels at, the other two will overhaul the line completely, giving entirely new playstyles for those ships. Example: AP-only -or- secondary (brawling) German CRs. 

Oh wait, UUs are burning inside the Russian Bonefire...

 

Edited by Paladinum

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The two basic core rules are offense and defence. You take mods that buff either as priority. Main battery reload mod already has a +13% traverse penalty. Range mod should have a +13% dispersion penalty to discourage sniping. The consumable mod is practically useless as it is now. Its in the concealment slot iirc. Yes, your radar is better for a little longer but does it matter if you are going to die since you did not buff your defence? The torpedo detection mods are about as useful as vigilance, ie, useless. 

IMO, screw all this "historical ship" bullcrap and just go pure arcadey. Amazingly, I enjoyed key battles despite not succeeding half the time in escaping. I enjoyed all the funkiness. The super speed and acceleration. The wavecasters. Circular wave of torpedo neutralization. Afterburners. Heal.  pew pew secondaries. It was fast and action paced as opposed to the sedate and zzzzzz of a typical random game. And of course, once you die, you immediate can go in without waiting. That is fun. 

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8 hours ago, dejiko_nyo said:

IMO, screw all this "historical ship" bullcrap and just go pure arcadey. Amazingly, I enjoyed key battles despite not succeeding half the time in escaping. I enjoyed all the funkiness. The super speed and acceleration. The wavecasters. Circular wave of torpedo neutralization. Afterburners. Heal.  pew pew secondaries. It was fast and action paced as opposed to the sedate and zzzzzz of a typical random game. And of course, once you die, you immediate can go in without waiting. That is fun. 

Same. Same AF.

Screw realism and bring Arms Race and Respawn to core modes. Create TDM mode.

Make this game an MMO Hero Brawler/Battle Arena like DotA, LoL or HotS. Because this game is basically a Hero Brawler/Battle Arena.

Edited by Paladinum
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15 minutes ago, Paladinum said:

Same. Same AF.

Screw realism and bring Arms Race and Respawn to core modes. Create TDM mode.

Make this game an MMO Hero Brawler/Battle Arena like DotA, LoL or HotS.

Make the ARP ships real with beam cannons and thanatonium warheads. Klein Fields all around. 

Apparently Iona can do 220 knots. >_>

Edited by dejiko_nyo
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1 hour ago, S4pp3R said:

I've still got a lot of work to go on this idea but wanted to see if anyone had any cool crazy ideas... Come on guys!!!!

Roast Pork scented candles.......

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8 hours ago, dejiko_nyo said:

IMO, screw all this "historical ship" bullcrap and just go pure arcadey. Amazingly, I enjoyed key battles despite not succeeding half the time in escaping. I enjoyed all the funkiness. The super speed and acceleration. The wavecasters. Circular wave of torpedo neutralization. Afterburners. Heal.  pew pew secondaries. It was fast and action paced as opposed to the sedate and zzzzzz of a typical random game. And of course, once you die, you immediate can go in without waiting. That is fun. 

Same.

I enjoyed the game mode. Even if I didn't succeed or I was teleported to the octagon, I had fun.

Fun very important.

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