The optimum engagement distance of cruisers in current meta

[GoodMorning_MFs]

A couple of weeks ago, I rebought the Dmitri Donskoi to start grinding for Nevsky, in the past during the road to Moskva I use the range upgrade for some reasons; as I feel quite confident in my cruiser skills now I went for the reload upgrade to mitigate that horrible 12.5 seconds reload. 

Somehow, playing Donskoi in the 17.8km range feels really suffocating, as players behave passively currently I have to extend myself to around 16km of the enemy, which is quite dangerous for Donskoi as sailing her feels like sailing a brick. I got focused quite easily and can't disengage easily, resulting in really messy scores. Thus I switch to the range upgrade once again and playing Donskoi feels comfortable again, I can position myself further to around 18km and I still can hit my shots easily while dodge incoming fire with ease. 

In terms of clumsy cruisers like Donskoi, is it better to extend her engagement distance to a safer range? Is the sacrifice of DPM worth it?

In addition, there's a lot of cruisers with ranges around 16km, such as Des Moines (15.8km), Minotaur (15.76km),  Zao (16.2km), and various T8/T9 cruisers, is 16km still a safe distance? Is using the legendary upgrade like Des Moines' worth it? Even though using them will put them to a closer distance to large caliber guns that can overmatch the armor with ease. 

[Dano07]

I used range upgrade - its the best tanking for CLs.

At T9/Tx being less than 14 kms is a death sentence and thats easy to do when u start off playing around 16 kms

I took advantage of the good RU ballistics  

[Puggsley]

I'm no cruiser player but my two cents is "effective" DPM rules. The difference between damage output and the cost of doing it.

In DD speak there is no point in having torps which can 1 shot a Yamato if they cannot be used without dying. Its why Kagero is so difficult these days.

And speaking of Yams, got mine yesterday and had a quick game in coop to see how it felt. Goddam that ship prints citadels!

[Reinhard_of_Avercland]

I don't have Donskoi, but I'm having the same problem.

Hindenburg is horrible with just 17 km max range, but 14 km detection range. And this is the range where Hindenburg is very vulnerable because the turtleback does not help against plunging fire. The range mod solves the issue though, although that means I sacrifice her DPM a bit. And of course the current meta involves a lot of campers, you can't even reach them with the stock range.

Salem or Des Moines seem ok with their default range because they can use islands as cover. The only way to perform well with them is to stay afloat until the late part of the game, when they can outgun anything crippled enough.

Smolensk with AFT can extend her gun range to 16.7 km. With full range build, she can reach 19.2 km (I got flamed for doing this though).

Venezia is actually a solid cruiser despite her 17.1 km gun range. But having 15 hard-hitting shells which are easy to aim is a nice thing. Her spaced armor makes her difficult to citadel, although not impossible. One of Sansonetti's talent can extend her gun range to 18.4 km, and that can be extended further with spotter plane.

My conclusion is: i think you're better off with the range mod. I mean just like torps in particular, boosting the DPM is not worth it if you cannot maximize its usage.

[S4pp3R]

Yes - go range.

On CAs like Venezia who can juke easy, go reload.

On CAs that can do islands, like DM, do reload.

Goliath is a bad CA that needs both.

Staying alive to deal damage is the number one goal. I still play most of mine with reload but as I regrind them I'll probs go range on most.

Hindy I still run reload but I use spotter and good positioning a lot.

[Grygus_Triss]

You pretty much have to go range for the high tier cruisers. With all the large caliber sniping BBs around, and the Supercruisers, it’s very dangerous to get close, especially for open water cruisers.

The other problem is that by getting close, even at 19km, you are the front line, you are the closest visible ship to the enemy (who can usually still outrange you by 4+ km), so you become number one on the hit list because your allied BBs are still sitting about 5 km behind you, rather than sitting next to you and providing alternate targets.

And if you’re spotted by aircraft or a DD, it’s near impossible to turn around and run at around 16km or from BBs without taking a citadel. And reversing isn’t an option either because you don’t have bow armour.

I blame the sniping meta. 

[GoodMorning_MFs]

10 minutes ago, Grygus_Triss said:

it’s very dangerous to get close, especially for open water cruisers.

IMO open water gunboating is quite hard now unless one has agility like Venezia/Smolensk or armor to shrug off shells like Moskva.

13 minutes ago, Grygus_Triss said:

I blame the sniping meta.

Yeah, the addition of high velocity/457mm and above guns like Stalingrad's or Kremlin's add salt to the wound

Can't upvote you guys since a while ago for some reason, brb

[Grygus_Triss]

12 minutes ago, rookieFTW said:

IMO open water gunboating is quite hard now unless one has agility like Venezia/Smolensk or armor to shrug off shells like Moskva.

Yeah, the addition of high velocity/457mm and above guns like Stalingrad's or Kremlin's add salt to the wound

Can't upvote you guys since a while ago for some reason, brb

Probably ran out of votes for day. There is a limit, not sure what it is though. 
 

You have to abuse island cover these days, which you can’t do on all maps and situations, since cruises like Donskoi have to be a bit away from the island to shoot over it. And then you get spotted by planes.

[hurricaneflyer]

I only have the Zao and Petropavlovsk, but with Zao you want range because of your excellent ballistics and fire chance and with Petro reload is best because your dispersion at range is at best very questionable and the lack of barrels means you WANT to pump out more shells Citadels.

[GoodMorning_MFs]

2 minutes ago, Grygus_Triss said:

Probably ran out of votes for day.

Ah dang it. I did used a lot since morning, I guess I have to thank you all on the next day

[GoodMorning_MFs]

2 minutes ago, hurricaneflyer said:

Petro reload is best

Petro's armor and design is too good, she can just sit there and absorb shots. And she has to get close to be effective.

5 minutes ago, hurricaneflyer said:

your dispersion at range is at best very questionable

Which is why Tallinn is quite disliked by some players, her hull forces backline playstyle but the crappy reload and long range dispersion makes dealing effective damage hard

[Mechfori]

The almost 20KM ranging is both a blessing and a curse but right now its everybody for themselves alone in the current game meta , am playing DM also towards the new T10 but I am Ok without the range upgrade, just learn to NOT fire ....

And there is the problem - A vacuum of fire cover to the front - and this of course hurt the CL / DD up front and in turn they cannot do their parts , I play DD mostly and these days I keep seeing Cruisers who camp 16 / 18 even 20+ KM away from the front ... That way they practically provide zero fire cover and certainly no close support and it's not like hiding behind rocks they had the best firing arc to even do suppression fire.

So while I do agree with what others had stated prior I had to warn , to put yourself in range and safety you are also putting yourself in position where your effectiveness is minimal and you are in effect abandoning your vanguard light forces.

When I play my DD I frequently seen such who still keep demanding me to go out and do my so call DD play ..be very honest I do not see a push a group who at least are up front supporting then forget it ... Like I keep saying in chat in game " if you guns are not prepared to push into firing lane you had no right to ask others to " and sadly that is the dilemma .... 

[GoodMorning_MFs]

@Mechfori rest assure m8, I know what I am doing and should be doing than selfish cruiser players.

1 hour ago, Mechfori said:

learn to NOT fire

The thing is, Donskoi is a long range specialist and has to be constantly spamming the enemy with the accurate 18cm guns, that is how she contribute as a cruiser. But limiting her optimum engagement distance to less than 17.8km in the current meta is very dangerous, she has a long hull, a turning circle of nearly 1km & a high citadel. By extending my reach to around 20km I can freely control my positioning while landing accurate shots to the enemy, if situation needs my radar, I can be there quickly with my 36 knots speed.

1 hour ago, Mechfori said:

put yourself in range and safety you are also putting yourself in position where your effectiveness is minimal and you are in effect abandoning your vanguard light forces.

Playing cruisers requires a very flexible mind and map reading, one cannot always stay at the back spamming as well as always stay in the front supporting. 

Allow me to use Donskoi as an example, in the start I will usually accompany my DD, staying around 4km of him to ensure he does not get rocket twice, if he show an intention of capping, I will evaluate whether to go in or not. If the DD wants to cap the A zone of Trap, I will surely help out, as there's room for me to maneuver and cover for me to get close. But it's not necessary that I have to be close to the cap zone, Donskoi has a 12.6km detection, quite large for a cruiser, therefore I normally leave the spotting to DD and CV, only swoop in with radar if situation allows (enemy BBs not in position yet/enemy DD smoke up blindly), I can provide fire support as far away from 12km or more thanks to the laser accuracy, getting in too close is unnecessary during early games as CV will do the spotting & focus fire is the fiercest (saw too many cruisers die in 5 minutes because they overextend while trying to help DD). 

If my DD wants to cap B in Trap instead, then there's no need for me to go near, the terrain is too dangerous for a Donskoi to operate closely, and both side DDs normally will enter a stalemate and merry go around in the mid island, instead staying away while keeping B in range is a safe choice. 

I do not run a WoWs monitor so I deem most DDs to be normies and not worthy to die for, I will try to help, but if its a dangerous terrain for me? I would rather stay safe, there's no point for me to overextend myself early game just to support DD. 

Do not expect teammates to follow you every time, sometimes it's just not the right place and right time. You are commanding your ship yourself, do not let teammates to command you, I suggest ignore unreasonable commands from teammates.

[Grygus_Triss]

1 hour ago, Mechfori said:

The almost 20KM ranging is both a blessing and a curse but right now its everybody for themselves alone in the current game meta , am playing DM also towards the new T10 but I am Ok without the range upgrade, just learn to NOT fire ....

And there is the problem - A vacuum of fire cover to the front - and this of course hurt the CL / DD up front and in turn they cannot do their parts , I play DD mostly and these days I keep seeing Cruisers who camp 16 / 18 even 20+ KM away from the front ... That way they practically provide zero fire cover and certainly no close support and it's not like hiding behind rocks they had the best firing arc to even do suppression fire.

So while I do agree with what others had stated prior I had to warn , to put yourself in range and safety you are also putting yourself in position where your effectiveness is minimal and you are in effect abandoning your vanguard light forces.

When I play my DD I frequently seen such who still keep demanding me to go out and do my so call DD play ..be very honest I do not see a push a group who at least are up front supporting then forget it ... Like I keep saying in chat in game " if you guns are not prepared to push into firing lane you had no right to ask others to " and sadly that is the dilemma .... 

Believe me, I know when NOT to fire. It does make me useless however.

And believe me, I WANT to get closer in my CL/CAs and provide support to DD and light force, that's why I often take a heap of damage early on, because I am the closest spotted ship to the enemy, BBs and super cruisers are sitting 10km back or behind islands. If I can hide behind an island, I will, but depending on ship, may not be possible to fire over or around effectively. Cruisers suffer as much as DD's do from lack of support from bigger guns.

And then there is aircraft... When your flank consists of 3 BBs, 1DD and you in a CA/CL, you really don't want to be the one sitting alone 8km away from the BBs.

Basically, I'm saying, flank should push up together until your shortest range cruiser is in range of enemy. Then focus fire and hope enemy has trouble selecting one target in a target rich environment.

[Mechfori]

It is a dilemma for both DD and Cruisers alike and while less so still a decision that need to be made for BB players .. at current meta it's again most just play safe and be safe , sadly that mean passive plays and as stated keep staying ranged, while I would not deny such tactics working , I would say it's this that made a disconnection and foster the mutual hatred and distrust between the guns BB & Cruisers Vs the light force.

From a DD PLAYER perspective , support that cannot be had immediate equate no support since as of today DD / CL simply no longer can utilize stealth nor speed and of course they had no armour to repel and no HP to burn.

If Cruiser like DM with big guns , OK armour , and good dose of HP ,are finding always needing to stay this 18 , 20 KM then it's the same for ships with even less armor, even less HP and certainly way less fire power. That create this current game meta ... Everyone stay back cause all will not fight and why cause all care not to fight ... and this do not start with DD nor CL nor even CA it start with all the BB who can tank but will not. Who can fight but will not. Who can push but will not.

that ripple through , without up front heavy fire then CA ( and ships like DM ) cannot and then it's the lesser, lighter one.

Why even bother to hard work and fight when one can camp, snipe and farm ... & that is what the game offer to all the heavy guns especially at high tiers. With ships like Thunderer, and yes DM - too and this is also why the op's question - optimal distance what does that term really mean optimal for the said ship or optimal for the team or optimal for a Victory .. ask yourself truly 

 

[Lowyat]

18 minutes ago, Mechfori said:

while less so still a decision that need to be made for BB

this is an understatement. a good bb captain calculates the odds of win and commits to push knowing full well never making it out alive. their dillemma is no less than any other class. sometimes a push is not warranted if there is a clear crossfire opportunity on the other side. though most would just shoot bow on ships and get rekt in turn, which is more common. a clear advantage is the usual culprit to moralize a push. it can be consistent spotting, enemy chunked, dead ships etc.

[Metal_illness]

You're going to LOVE the Anchorage 15km firing range and NO OPTION for range upgrade.

Which equates to effectively engaging enemies at 12-15kms, perfect for literally ANY TYPE OF SHIP to BLAP you back to port.

[S4pp3R]

41 minutes ago, Dread_Pirate_BlackHeart said:

You're going to LOVE the Anchorage 15km firing range and NO OPTION for range upgrade.

Which equates to effectively engaging enemies at 12-15kms, perfect for literally ANY TYPE OF SHIP to BLAP you back to port.

AFAIK you can trade hydro for spotter plane.

I intend to try this. I intend to play her like Perth, open water long range with spotter, smoke for shorter range spam.

[GoodMorning_MFs]

1 hour ago, Mechfori said:

If Cruiser like DM with big guns , OK armour , and good dose of HP ,are finding always needing to stay this 18 , 20 KM

If your DM means Dmitri Donskoi then I suppose you do not have enough understanding of that ship. The guns are not big, its only 18cm, which still needs IFHE, has bad DPM, the only good thing is the shell per salvo and accuracy. Armor is not ok, its incredibly unforgiving, HP is middle of the pack, but then again T9 are fill with supercruisers with around 60k hp. 

1 hour ago, Mechfori said:

it's the same for ships with even less armor, even less HP and certainly way less fire power.

No, noticed I did not mentioned Neptune? Cuz Neptune is a different case, she has to stay in mid range as she is designed for, her high shell arcs, superheal & smoke are what make her ideal for mid range combat. 

The reason I speak of Dmitri is that Dmitri can't effectively utilize terrain due to the flat arcs, so she can't have the playstyle of Seattle/Neptune. She has to open water gunboating, and gunboating with that hull + tuning radius is not easy around 17km. Which is why I put here to discuss. Whether or not should I extend her reach in exchange of DPM. The distance doesn't bother me too much as I can reliably hit targets with her guns, and I will constantly monitor the DD, if he wants to push, I will help if situation allows. 

This is not a game of pure pushing, its a combination of push/hold/kite, if one's ship is not suited for that role do not forced it to fulfil that role. 

1 hour ago, Mechfori said:

what does that term really mean optimal for the said ship or optimal for the team or optimal for a Victory

Its regarding ship, on the choice of DPM or longer reach. The 20km range does not discourage me from supporting DDs, instead it provides me with tactical flexibility. My win rate is not affect by me switching over to a longer range, as I know when to close in, when to pull back.

Tbh your pessimistic view on the game is sky high, are you ok?

47 minutes ago, Dread_Pirate_BlackHeart said:

You're going to LOVE the Anchorage 15km firing range and NO OPTION for range upgrade.

As @S4pp3R mentioned you still can slot the spotter, but then again she's a hard ship to master as she do not have a heal and has to find good positions to damage enemies while being safe. So I don't bother with her grind at the moment. I think she's a ship that scales heavily by MM, a king when top-tier but a pleb when bottom-tier.

[GoodMorning_MFs]

2 hours ago, Mechfori said:

that is what the game offer to all the heavy guns especially at high tiers

Sadly its the trend, new introduced ships are more sturdy and brings large and accurate guns, which is why OG cruisers might need to adapt for by extending the range of engagement. But it doesn't mean pushing is inexistent in game

[SoraMassage]

That depends on your style of positioning. There is no fixed optimal engagement distance - the best one is the one that allows you to contribute positively and consistently.

If you like to position around middle of the map and get focused a lot then range is definitely better. If you tend to flank and involve in 1v1 situations more then take reload. 

I am the opposite of you btw - switching from range to reload on Donskoi because I found myself losing too many significant 1v1 fights to other cruisers in late game while the amount of time I wish I had more range is negligible (like only 1-2 mins per match). 

[Mechfori]

1 hour ago, rookieFTW said:

Sadly its the trend, new introduced ships are more sturdy and brings large and accurate guns, which is why OG cruisers might need to adapt for by extending the range of engagement. But it doesn't mean pushing is inexistent in game

what it mean is Pushing is minimal , not non-existent , but nowadays RARE .. but yet the BB, the Cruisers, still demand the light force to go out and do their part when they cannot and often they will not be up front, up close to give that fire cover, close support, suppression fire , and of course as light force goes, when the need arise the need is IMMEDIATE, not allowing the big guns to leisure to sit back there and sail forth then give it the support ..as you've put it in your prior post , 4KM behind the DD or CL is where support can be effectively provided, not 10, 12, 15, 18 away.

Its this kind of disconnection that create the dilemma for all ships .. right now from this DD main at least the meta is simply well ;  you guns stay back then I stay back forget about asking me to go vanguard, scouting, spotting or flaking .... if guns are not prepared to go into danger and firing lane, then no way they had the right to demand me to, or expect me to go face that  , is it a team effort play of course not , but then sitting back at 18/20KM with a CL is neither one either and these days its what  happen OFTEN , BB who will not Tank and Fight, Cruiser who will not forward fighting, engaging, and in turn CL who would not forward support and fire cover, and DD who would not vanguard .. as I've out it earlier its a ripple effect , and this start not with the DD, nor CL nor even CA its now the dominating BB and Super Cruiser ( and thrown in the Radar and Planes ) that create this , help by all these OP high tier additions like Thunderer, Ohio, and then some , cause they can and they will sit way back and just camp, snipe and farm ( and come out top of the score board even though they practically never fight the battle )

And when the game mechanics force this ranged meta it practically penalize all ship with short range , and yet reward the campers and farmers , and this is for no reason other than that the said player are playing that particular ship.

And that in turn beg to ask if and what the original Question really ask for  - Optimal Engagement Distance for Cruiser - Optimal for what ....  ???

[Verytis]

38 minutes ago, Mechfori said:

4KM behind the DD or CL is where support can be effectively provided, not 10, 12, 15, 18 away.

Are you asking your teammates to become spotted before you become spotted, so that they have no buffer zone to turn around?

[Mechfori]

2 minutes ago, Verytis said:

Are you asking your teammates to become spotted before you become spotted, so that they have no buffer zone to turn around?

I am saying if the team's gun are not prepared to fight the front then the light force are not to fight the front either and speaking of spotting it's always the big guns who would be spotted first.

Whether they choose to push and fight is theirs and equally for light force whether to push and vanguard is theirs.

If Cruisers BB are in the mindset to stay safe then they must also allow the same to their teams' light force and in turn lost all those potential spotting scouting screening advantage . AND most importantly if the heavy guns with HP and armor are not prepared to fight it up front then they should not ask their teammates to either.

And I do not state that 4 KM part , @rookieFTW state that regarding how he able to effective give immediate support but I do agree .. though if gaming with no CV Ithink we can extend that another couple KM

It's a simple scenario but a difficult dilemma for any Cruisers you can fight but be prepared to be fired upon or you can stay out stay safe but expect nothing in return 

[humusz]

Depend on Map and Opponent composition.

on Open map without cover, at early games with Heavy enemy presence. you would want for 19km-20km+ range. or you just struggle to doing anything meaningful at early games.

and early games is the most important phase in battle, you dont want dawly dally not doing anything meaningfull while your Flank is slowly collapsing or struggle to get into position when its turned into snipefest