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S4pp3R

I was crunching some numbers for Commonwealth Cruisers... ... Thoughts?

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Hey folks...

So I was crunching some numbers, because with the Cruisers I wanted to make sure that my 'higher alpha, lower DPM' for the Light Cruisers was feasible (it is).

Here's some numbers (and comparisons) to compare, see what you think...

Hobart is a Mod-Leander, Bellona is a 152 Dido, Swiftsure is an Ontario, Tiger is a 3x3 Tiger, Bellerophon is a theoretical 1124A design with 4x3... (Think Mino-esk with 4x3 and a bit bigger...)

Basically if the DPM is pushed much further, the shell alpha would need to be reduced. The idea is that the numbers are to balance the range and better shell ballistics. Range isn't 'long range' because the ships have access to creeping smoke, so they don't get too much range otherwise you end up with Kutuzov-style ships which isn't a good thing.

I'd say if there's a 'weaker' one tier for tier in the line, it'd be Bellona but I don't want to push her reload better any further and I didn't want to go down the 130s route (there's a premium for that - Black Prince).

Thoughts?

Tier 6

  Hobart (proposed) Perth Budyony Dallas
Range (km) 15 12.8 (15.36) 16.6 (19.92) 14.3
Guns 8 (4 x 2) 8  (4 x 2) 9  (3 x 3) 10 (2 x 2, 2 x 3)
Reload (seconds) 9 7.5 8 8.5
HE Shell Alpha 2500 2100 2200 2200
HE DPM 133 333 134 400 148 500 155 294
AP Shell Alpha 3600 3100 3300 3200
AP DPM 192 000 198 400 222 750 225 882

 

Tier 7

  Bellona (proposed) Fiji Shchors Hellena
Range (km) 16 15.4 16.8 (20.16) 14.6
Guns 8 (4 x 2) 12  (4 x 3) 12  (4 x 3) 15 (5 x 3)
Reload (seconds) 7 7.5 8 8.5
HE Shell Alpha 2500   2200 2200
HE DPM 171 428   198 000 232 941
AP Shell Alpha 3600 3100 3300 3200
AP DPM 246 857 297 600 297 000 338 823

 

Tier 8

  Swiftsure (proposed) Edinburgh Chapayev Cleveland
Range (km) 16.5 15.4 17.3 15.6
Guns 9 (3 x 3) 12  (4 x 3) 12  (4 x 3) 12 (4 x 3)
Reload (seconds) 7 7.5 8 6.5
HE Shell Alpha 2500   2200 2200
HE DPM 192 857   198 000 243 692
AP Shell Alpha 3600 3100 3300 3200
AP DPM 277 714 297 600 297 000 354 461

 

Tier 9

  Tiger (proposed) Neptune   Seattle
Range (km) 16.8 16.5   15.7
Guns 9 (3 x 3) 12  (4 x 3)   12 (4 x 3)
Reload (seconds) 6 4.8   6.5
HE Shell Alpha 2500     2200
HE DPM 225 000     243 692
AP Shell Alpha 3600 3200   3200
AP DPM 324 000 480 000   354 461

 

Tier 10

  Bellerophon (proposed) Minotaur   Worcester
Range (km) 17 15.8   16.7
Guns 12 (4 x 3) 10  (5 x 2)   12 (6 x 2)
Reload (seconds) 6 3.2   4.6
HE Shell Alpha 2500     2200
HE DPM 300 000     344 348
AP Shell Alpha 3600 3200   3200
AP DPM 432 000 600 000   500 870

 

 

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This might be a bit long.

Hobart is a Perth that uses Vegimite instead of explosives in the shells.

Bellona looks very, VERY painful to play especially if I'm imagining the Hull correctly.

Swiftsure is a Mysore that had too much maple syrup and thinks it's a Albermarle.

Tiger is a Drake (ship,not the band) fangirl and as such tries to imitate it in every way possible.

Bellerophon (needs a name change for obvious reasons) finally bought a 4th turret... 2 tiers late.

Remember that if you are comparing these cruisers with only the other light cruisers you mustn't neglect the Heavy Cruisers. Because as you said these cruisers are meant to be alpha strike focused, trading it for DPM you must also include the Heavy Cruisers as their point is also more alpha less DPM. Also don't forget that DPM numbers don't mean everything, for example Minotaur has excellent DPM but lacks any ability to start fires and can be foiled by angling.

As a whole the cruisers seem like they are going to become underarmed mid-long range HE spammers that up-tier poorly. My suggestion for the cruisers is to give them better fire chance (somewhere in the ballpark of 12-18%) and better Penetration values. Improving both of these won't subtract from the way you envision these cruisers operating, and will make every salvo fired more powerful.

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8 minutes ago, hurricaneflyer said:

This might be a bit long.

Hobart is a Perth that uses Vegimite instead of explosives in the shells.

Bellona looks very, VERY painful to play especially if I'm imagining the Hull correctly.

Swiftsure is a Mysore that had too much maple syrup and thinks it's a Albermarle.

Tiger is a Drake (ship,not the band) fangirl and as such tries to imitate it in every way possible.

Bellerophon (needs a name change for obvious reasons) finally bought a 4th turret... 2 tiers late.

Remember that if you are comparing these cruisers with only the other light cruisers you mustn't neglect the Heavy Cruisers. Because as you said these cruisers are meant to be alpha strike focused, trading it for DPM you must also include the Heavy Cruisers as their point is also more alpha less DPM. Also don't forget that DPM numbers don't mean everything, for example Minotaur has excellent DPM but lacks any ability to start fires and can be foiled by angling.

As a whole the cruisers seem like they are going to become underarmed mid-long range HE spammers that up-tier poorly. My suggestion for the cruisers is to give them better fire chance (somewhere in the ballpark of 12-18%) and better Penetration values. Improving both of these won't subtract from the way you envision these cruisers operating, and will make every salvo fired more powerful.

CAs have far less DPM but comparable range...

I wouldn't argue they are a good comparison...

Pensacola for example has 112k HE DPM and different pen.

Sorry but no I didn't include CAs for that reason.

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2 hours ago, S4pp3R said:

CAs have far less DPM but comparable range...

I wouldn't argue they are a good comparison...

Pensacola for example has 112k HE DPM and different pen.

Sorry but no I didn't include CAs for that reason.

Understandable, have a nice day.

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1 hour ago, hurricaneflyer said:

Understandable, have a nice day.

Thanks for the reply, I did think about it and it's a valid idea. Soz if I seemed to brush it aside or was a bit frosty, wasn't my intent.

Why do CAs have such low DPM, is it because of just their alpha?

I assesed and and did the maths and primarily it's the pen in combination with fires and range. The pen makes all the difference.

My idea for the CW CLs is just for good alpha and decent AP. They'll still want IFHE most of the time but will have better one-salvo damage than other CLs but pay in DPM areas.

Edited by S4pp3R
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I think T6, T7 and T8 reload could be a tad faster.

8 seconds for T6 and 6 seconds for T7 and T8 perhaps? Seeming that they have fewer guns compared to their peers.

Since T9 and T10 have the slot 6 upgrade, they can reload faster via slot 6 upgrade.

 

The second question that rises is will they have both HE and AP or AP only.

After seeing INS Mysore with AP only armament, this question rises.

I blame WG for this confusion.

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2 hours ago, S0und_Theif said:

I think T6, T7 and T8 reload could be a tad faster.

8 seconds for T6 and 6 seconds for T7 and T8 perhaps? Seeming that they have fewer guns compared to their peers.

Since T9 and T10 have the slot 6 upgrade, they can reload faster via slot 6 upgrade.

The second question that rises is will they have both HE and AP or AP only.

After seeing INS Mysore with AP only armament, this question rises.

I blame WG for this confusion.

In my proposal, they have both. The major issue people have with the idea of commonwealth lines is they're the same or too similar to RN. Mysore is a demonstration of WGs laziness and a wasted opportunity IMO.

I think you may be right about reload but there are a few things going on here that need to be considered.

1. They have the option for creeping smoke, being able to shoot from relative safety.

2. Don't get too caught up in DPM comparisons with RN CLs, RN CLs often have a large number of shells shatter or overpen.

3. Having improved shell ballistics means a lot, landing shells counts.

4. Improved alpha damage is a big deal. Part of what makes IJN CAs ships that have stood the test of time HE wise is good HE alpha and fire chance. They have low DPM however.

But I still come back to your point too, what if it's not enough?

Soviet CLs consistently have good DPM and range and I wonder how much the increased alpha will mean anything for the above Commonwealth ships. Particularly given that CAs have even better alpha but crucially better pen, which makes all the difference.

So I think it's enough, but you think it might not be. Problem is if I push the DPM much further, where's the downside for better alpha strike?

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21 minutes ago, S4pp3R said:

In my proposal, they have both. The major issue people have with the idea of commonwealth lines is they're the same or too similar to RN. Mysore is a demonstration of WGs laziness and a wasted opportunity IMO.

I think you may be right about reload but there are a few things going on here that need to be considered.

1. They have the option for creeping smoke, being able to shoot from relative safety.

2. Don't get too caught up in DPM comparisons with RN CLs, RN CLs often have a large number of shells shatter or overpen.

3. Having improved shell ballistics means a lot, landing shells counts.

4. Improved alpha damage is a big deal. Part of what makes IJN CAs ships that have stood the test of time HE wise is good HE alpha and fire chance. They have low DPM however.

But I still come back to your point too, what if it's not enough?

Soviet CLs consistently have good DPM and range and I wonder how much the increased alpha will mean anything for the above Commonwealth ships. Particularly given that CAs have even better alpha but crucially better pen, which makes all the difference.

So I think it's enough, but you think it might not be. Problem is if I push the DPM much further, where's the downside for better alpha strike?

Yes, it's the "what if it's not enough" that concerns me.

But you also have merits to your points "what if it's too much".

 

Overall the proposal is sound. They are different enough that they should not be considered as Royal Navy gimmick and playstyle, while still use Royal Navy ships.

:Smile_great:

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6 hours ago, S0und_Theif said:

Yes, it's the "what if it's not enough" that concerns me.

But you also have merits to your points "what if it's too much".

 

Overall the proposal is sound. They are different enough that they should not be considered as Royal Navy gimmick and playstyle, while still use Royal Navy ships.

:Smile_great:

Sweet, I think I'll pencil in these values. In the end even if they used these values they'd need to be adjusted based on testing anyways.

I just wanted to make sure it was possible, I don't actually plan on putting the values into the video (I'll probably put in range though).

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