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Grygus_Triss

How to Play DD Against Radar?

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Hi

There has been a bit of talk lately about how difficult DDs are to play.

In my opinion, DDs have become more difficult to play, with many matches filled with CVs, Radar and Hydro.

Does anyone have some tips and strategies on how to deal with radar in particular? Especially with the new radar signal, which gives even longer duration?

Do you think WG should change radar mechanics? Or buff DDs to deal with the current meta?

Or is is just a case of adapting playstyle?

Discuss.

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Neufert is specialist

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well radar can't go through islands. Oh wait ...

well shells can't usually go through islands so use cover.

Know your battle field.. don't rush to cap. Work out where the Radar ships are (and heading to)and their radar ranges and duration.

Is there a CV and where is he focused?

Try to get the team to focus radar ships when possible if they need you to cap. (They should know this...but...)

Also watch for the Hydro ships, they can surprise you through an island as well.

If you cannot get into the cap then standoff behind cover and lob shells, use torps through gaps so you minimize the time you are vulnerable.

Dodge

make sure you have last stand skill.

Keep moving unless you are in cover

 

 

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in general?

 

use caps or abusing concealment to jebait the enemy to use his radar ineffectively

keeping your distence and watching the minimap to avoid radar infested areas when possible 

I S L A N D C A N B L O C K S H E L L S

of corse there's also spamming F3 at the enemy radar when you spot him and pray for competent teammates but that's not something you can really control so i digress

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First of all this is several questions , not 1 .. the first ... well its undeniable that DD are given the sour end of all these , and the whole balance is only there to please the big guns player and no amount of excuse can reason why DD the class are denied their effective mean to stealth and commence their fair share of offensive and defensive combat ... should WG change that , well more like will WG change that .. and its highly unlikely as they only care about making sure their OP premium ( and most of them are BB , Super Cruisers , and CA ) stay OP so they are not about to give the others the fair chance and fair playground , its not Radar alone , its combo of multiple factors but for sure Radar and abundance of Radar in game do made up a fair portion of it all

Adapting, I think every DD player are already trying their best to adept, its the other player who are not ... DD is no longer capable to simply stealth and vanguard , so that means .. well a push mean a push, not guns who sit at range and just sniping ... yes as others had put it , stay ranged out , and that mean if the team want those cap, want to able push through, wanting to afford the luxury of DD / CL able to go flanking and screening then they must first provide the environment and that means they had to take out the Radar ship or driven them way beyond those 12KM ... Its easy for any DD player to simply adept to staying ranged , but then one must ask if the game allow the DD to actually be able to do anything positive to the team when doing that , and if at best that's minimal that means its not perhaps the best for the team but for the team wanting the DD to go out to do all the DD play then the support must be given and right now that is the hurdle cause almost all the guns and also CV care is farming their own ... these days , to push and to contest means BB had to be in it, Cruisers had to be in it, and sorry most of the time I fail to see that ...

In all seriousness .. the answer to dealing with Radar is simple stay well clear of 13KM ( or whatever distance the Radar encountered + buffer left for maneuvering ) and never ever get into that until the teams guns either deal with it or driven them off ... its as simple as that ... of course the issue on hand is the teams guns always care not to deal with the radar when always asking you the DD or CL to force up front to do your so call DD play ... when they will not give the proper support in term of fire cover and close support.

There is always reason BB and Cruisers not forcing the front, and likewise there is always reason DD and CL do not force the front .. again its mutual

My take as a DD player is simple, if the teams guns do not maintain an environment where I can vanguard , then I will not vanguard, and then they in turn , lost the support of DD vanguard, spotting, screening ... its mutual .. they do not provide me with proper support, then I cannot ( & care not to ) provide them with proper support and if ever enemy push forth , by any measure as a DD I should be the one who got better chance to escape

And finally the question , can Radar be play against ... simple answer is NO .. there is no counter measure against Radar

Edited by Mechfori
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Remember Radar ranges and duration and play around that.

Some caps can be radared from behind a nearby island, some can't and some only partially. 

Also apart from radar, be on the lookout for other enemy ships with a clear line of fire into your position. More often than not the real source of damage is not the enemy radar ship itself, but their team's support fire. Radar is pretty useless if nobody is in position to shoot the radar'ed ship.

Don't feel compelled to rush a cap if you are a DD. Play safe, let the friendly CV (if there is one) scout the area and confirm the location of radar ships and try to bait their radar before you commit.

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Radar baiting is an important skill as a DD player. Either get the radar ship to waste a radar by being in a position he can't shoot, or better yet, bait him into the open where your teammates can kill him off.

I had a great game in the Yugumo last night where I was on the edge of a DMs radar range and baited him out of his island cover. He then over committed to killing me and got focussed down really quickly. 

Most enemies will focus a DD when it gets spotted, so use that to your advantage where possible. 

Edited by BeardyBandit
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Added to the other points already well made. 

Have your escape route planned and be positioned so you don't have to make a big turn to get out of trouble. 

And EXPECT TROUBLE if you are facing a few radar ships or a CV.

Turn your mini-map size up as big as it can go so you can easily tell when enemy ships which are a threat are spotted and you can adjust your approach appropriately.

 

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The other have made good points here. I would add these.

1. Don't overextend, especially if the battle has CVs.
It happens very frequently for DD players to spam F3/F6 in the position where it is impossible to bail them out. Most ships also struggle to hit enemies at extreme ranges. And the further away you are from your teammates, the less likely the enemies you spot to be within your teammates' firing range. I 'm too lazy to draw a proper graph to illustrate the examples, but this should be enough:

Spoiler

Okay
A ----- B ----- C

Not okay
A ------------ B ----- C

Sure some of your teammates might call you out for not spotting deeply enough, and this is why I add the next one.

 

2. Don't be in the wrong place when needed.
Some DD players have a strange hard-on for attacking the irrelevant targets. This kind of DD players often handed their teammates to the enemy team on a silver platter in order to achieve whatever they lust on. In other cases, this happens because they survive after they break the point #1 but lose too much HP to carry on with their role adequately. This is mostly their own fault. Sure they will blame the BBs who camp away or the cruisers that hug islands. But there will never be enough amount of firepower can save any DD that put themselves into the wrong place, especially if they hand their teammates to the enemy team on a silver platter prior to that.

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How to play?

Smartly by using your brain. The simplest answer.

Or if you cannot take it, _don't play_

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Radar ship is just a cheater in my book, they deserve being blab by BB with aim-bot/aim-assist for equality.

Joke aside...

There's a lot of 12km radar theses day with right position they can cover 2 cap in some cases, they may be short duration but once your hiding position is revealed to the rest is CV DB come in to kill...

Luckily... My Shima have 20km torp equipped :cap_haloween: allow me to stay out of radar amidst of ally AA and still striking enemy BB in back.

 

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And not all 12KM radar are short duration .. the T10 still 30 sec and now with upgrade they can get it to 36 sec , its almost catching up with Salem / Mino / Des M , and if they really want it they can mount both Radar Upgrade and get 30% extra time , that would be 39 sec @ 12KM or up to 52 sec on a USS / RN T10 ( that is why some time ago someone wonder why he's got Radar plot on him for so long ) ... Its highly specialized way of equipping the upgrades but it can be done and there are people who do it

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40 minutes ago, Mechfori said:

And not all 12KM radar are short duration .. the T10 still 30 sec and now with upgrade they can get it to 36 sec , its almost catching up with Salem / Mino / Des M , and if they really want it they can mount both Radar Upgrade and get 30% extra time , that would be 39 sec @ 12KM or up to 52 sec on a USS / RN T10 ( that is why some time ago someone wonder why he's got Radar plot on him for so long ) ... Its highly specialized way of equipping the upgrades but it can be done and there are people who do it

30s is short duration already, 15s on petro is basically nonexistent and un-utilizable apart from yourself unless you are actively communicating with your team and petro doesn't have the DPM to make good use of the short duration

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well for all Radar  , as by default there is 15, 20, 22, 25, 30, 35, and 40 sec duration so 30 sec duration is on the longer duration side of the spectrum , its long enough that those upgrade do made a useful addition ... those 15 and 20 sec Radar is more defensive measure than anything else

Edited by Mechfori
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On 8/27/2020 at 10:28 AM, Grygus_Triss said:

Hi

There has been a bit of talk lately about how difficult DDs are to play.

In my opinion, DDs have become more difficult to play, with many matches filled with CVs, Radar and Hydro.

Does anyone have some tips and strategies on how to deal with radar in particular? Especially with the new radar signal, which gives even longer duration?

Do you think WG should change radar mechanics? Or buff DDs to deal with the current meta?

Or is is just a case of adapting playstyle?

Discuss.

Tip #1: Know your enemy team i.e. how many radars, what are their concealment (Dm. Donskoi ~12.4km etc.) so you know if you spot them you will get counter radar, know places they WILL go (typically behind / close to islands) spot them for your team, try get team to kill radar ships. 

Tip #2: When there are CVs and Radars, don't dive into caps at beginning of round. The CV will always look for the DD, so stick close to your friendlies for AA support (i know..AA doesn't do much) but always check mini map for the radar ships and CV planes, than plan whether you want to contest cap or do scouting or torpedo runs or scout enemy DDs which are harassing your BB/CA. 

I don't think WG will have plans to change radar anytime soon, it seems they know about it but have far more things (i.e. releasing ships, events) to do than worry about the radar issue. However, with the reduction in AA concealment without firing AA guns for DD, it does help a bit for DD surviving longer.

TL: DR. Don't play aggressively in beginning, take a look at what the enemy does and play & relocate your ship accordingly, the one who makes move first often gets the short end of the stick. 

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On 8/27/2020 at 11:28 PM, Grygus_Triss said:

Or is is just a case of adapting playstyle?

Not really. As the most mobile, sneakiest ships on the map, playing a DD is all about threat detection and threat avoidance. A RADAR should be viewed as just one more threat, in the same line as enemy planes, enemy DDs, and to a lesser degree, torps in the water and hydro.

Point 1. Unknown threats are far more dangerous than known threats. Your initial goal is to gather and process information to convert unknown into known, imprecise to precise. Never commit when facing unknowns. Once you know where the radar ships are, you can make smart choices. #1 cause of stupid DD deaths is overextending early before the enemy ship positions are known.

Point 2. Plan for the expected. The goal is not to permanently stay out of radar range. The goal is to survive being radared. Radar can see through islands, but shells don't go through them. If you expect to get detected (by whetever method) keep your eyes on the appropriate exit cover.

Point 3. If you have to wait to cap, help out your team to kill the RADAR threats. You can outspot radar, and even if you cant you can safely spot from just inside range. Make life as unpleasant for the enemy cruisers as possible, bait him to use up all his consumables. Likewise protect your own by providing smoke and vision wherever possible.

 

Edited by Rina_Pon

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I've been an aggressive/daring-type of DD player, so if you're on that same side of the coin, perhaps I can offer an insight on how I do things (I'm no pro at being a DD player out there, but I've been a DD main ever since so I have reasonable amount of knowledge on how DDs operate)

I find "knowing when to be aggressive" the best remedy when facing radar ships, even more when facing radar and CV altogether in a match. Charging into the cap isn't necessarily bad, but knowing when to get out is a must, since entering the cap is a good way to jebait radar ships to commit their radar and potentially wasting it (This only potentially works since if you're in a poor position, you better have wasd hacks or some insane luck else you'll not leave the cap unscathed, perhaps not able to leave the cap to even tell the tale, so position yourself properly when doing so, DD basics 101). This also works fine against CVs, but expect worse odds (Yeah, CVs are always trouble, but with enough skill and intuition, you can at least mitigate incoming CV fire). This also includes when to overextend and when to retreat, since overextending means you can be closer to your enemies and perform better torpedo runs while providing spotting for your team at the cost of being more vulnerable and away from the closest help you can get. DD play is more of weighing tradeoffs which makes the skill ceiling very high since you're pretty much expected to be against odds all the time and are pressured both from your enemies and your teammates (DD pls cap, DD pls spot, DD pls don't die, DD where are you when I needed you the most???).
 

I don't really see radar ships as much of a threat tbh since you can just play around it using positioning and timing. My experience in the Lightning solidified this where she has enough utility to counter pretty much anything she meets. In trouble? You got a very long-lasting hydro, in-demand smoke, 360-turrets, good concealment, and the glorious Nigerundayo Acceleration, add some wasd hacks and you'll pretty much mitigate damage fine while able to kite away with ease. I always believe a DD screws up because of what they do rather than being let down by their teammates (Yes, CVs do not scare me, let them fly over me if they want, I can always go back to my teammates for help, or just dodge and pray for the best, nothing to really worry about much)

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Firstly   ; Thanks for the all information , all of them is too important for new players. Unortunately i can say these  :

 

Already i knew some of them but some of them hard for me reason my teams. You may apply these advise if your team moving / playing with you.

1 - now i see  4 radar ships, 3 or 4 DD and 1 CV  I can't understand what happend after last update , Everytime my all team's radar ships waiting behind of the  far mountains  or near to border of the map and don't support DD. All advices true if your team moving with you or if they supporting you. As i said, no one don't support DD in today's all battles. May be they trying something due to new update i don't know.

2-  If my team don't support me, i don't try cap but since this morning, my team destrpying me reason of capture. Because if i don't capture zone, enemies don't come near to the zones and BB can't shoot anyone.

3- DD need to god mod or any solution for teamkil. Since this morning almost every battle i'm destroyed by my team.

 

 

Edited by Neufert1

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You need to assess the risk you are facing. And act accordingly. If there are enemy CV with radar you need to be cautious until you know where they are.

The issue you face is the same as the one on this sign I came across when out in the bush recently.

 

 

IMG_1888.jpg

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On 8/28/2020 at 12:28 AM, Grygus_Triss said:

Hi

There has been a bit of talk lately about how difficult DDs are to play.

In my opinion, DDs have become more difficult to play, with many matches filled with CVs, Radar and Hydro.

Does anyone have some tips and strategies on how to deal with radar in particular? Especially with the new radar signal, which gives even longer duration?

Do you think WG should change radar mechanics? Or buff DDs to deal with the current meta?

Or is is just a case of adapting playstyle?

Discuss.

Agreed but not quite the root cause IMO.

The root cause IMO is that XP rewards for DDs are so inconsistent.

If spotting and teamplay was more rewarded, the DD could play in more safety without actually needing to risk it for the biscuit...

But as for playing, easiest way to deal with radar is to sit back and wait for your CV to do his work (spotting them), then playing carefully based on where the enemy radar ships are.

Know the radar ranges of enemy ships and stay away unless you are actively baiting.

Like I'll bait radar with smoke sometimes, depending on the situation... Like I'll drop a smoke screen and already be running as it's dropping in the hope that an enemy ship will radar.

Biggest advice with radar and smoke use is hard cover. Always try and smoke up next to hard cover, ready to duck behind it. There is nothing like a good island to take a beating for you.

Edited by S4pp3R
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Going into battle I always look at the enemy lineup to see which ships have radar and remind myself of each of those ships radar range and duration (some like mino I'll assume is manly and running radar until I know otherwise) Then during the game I'll constantly be checking the minimap to see where these boats are so I know which radar areas to avoid, or bait as necessary (for instance it there are three radar ships on the enemy team but only one anywhere near me I know I can bait him right at the edge of his range and disappear for the duration of his radar)

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On 8/27/2020 at 11:28 PM, Grygus_Triss said:

In my opinion, DDs have become more difficult to play, with many matches filled with CVs, Radar and Hydro.

Discuss.

I did very poorly in a run of games in Shimakaze last night, only winning one convincingly once the CVs went to bed and the MM started dealing out some CV-free randoms. What I learn in that last game, however, taught me some important lessons for my CV games, too.

I was playing Shimakaze as a traditional solo hunter, the way most people play Shimakaze. She's a fast ship and stealthy, but if you play solo you can get zapped quickly with CV and radar and TX firepower like Smolensk.

I learnt that Shimakaze gameplay is not solo hunter. It's a symbiotic interaction with your team, but a slightly different one than i.e. Gearing. Shima can be viewed in terms of forcing mistakes on the enemy that your team can take advantage of, and taking advantage of mistakes forced on the enemy team by your teammates. A ship feeling no pressure and on the lookout is a lot harder to hit with torps than one boxed in and under heavy fire. Your teammates create your opportunities, so you need to stick close to capitalize. Bonus here is in CV games you can always duck back into protective AA cover.

Generally though, you can expect to do a lot less well in CV games than non-CV. It's simply a vision problem. Not only are you likely to be plane spotted, but any CA/CL hoping to support you will also get plane spotted. You lose your support and your element of surprise both. Little wonder your role is reduced to generic capping and screening.

 

 

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My opinion:

1. Be familiar with radar ranges. Russians for example have 12Km.

2. Do not rush cap, especially if your alone with no back up CA.

3. Radio Position Finder is a must.

4. DDs have better spotting and concealment than CAs with radar. Utilize the advantage. 

However, these days with dangerous CVs and ships with good sonar...and those super annoying storm, playing DDs is difficult. In so many games, I have played with the 'holy trinity' of WoWs: CVs+Radar+Storm. Those 3 combos for me are the worst.  

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I've always valued RPF pretty highly, even more so these days. Helps reduce surprises dramatically.

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