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hurricaneflyer

Why does the Vampire have Italian AA?

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Some of you Aussies probably know why, but I am markedly confused. Look under the AA defense bar and it states both the 13 and 20mm AA mounts are Bredas.

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wut.

 

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Well, they where in the Mediterranean at that time so probably captured some and mounted it on their ships.

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1 hour ago, hurricaneflyer said:

Some of you Aussies probably know why, but I am markedly confused. Look under the AA defense bar and it states both the 13 and 20mm AA mounts are Bredas.

You're right to be confused, Vampire only ever had Lewis guns or Vickers Machine guns, both were .303 and one or two QF 2 Pounder guns mounted as AA defense. There is no reason she would have had Italian weapons mounted.

 

19 minutes ago, notyourfather said:

Well, they where in the Mediterranean at that time so probably captured some and mounted it on their ships.

And After, Vampire was sunk in the Indian Ocean while she was with the British Eastern Fleet, what other ships in that fleet would have had italian made ammounition?

Edited by darkflame88

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12 minutes ago, darkflame88 said:

And After, Vampire was sunk in the Indian Ocean while she was with the British Eastern Fleet, what other ships in that fleet would have had italian made ammounition?

"That could be, but they had a light point 8 inch machine gun called a Breda which was apparently very good. And a matter of fact they had them on some of our Australian boats, and they souvenired them because point 8 ammunition was available for us as well"
http://australiansatwarfilmarchive.unsw.edu.au/archive/67-lloyd-saltmarsh

"There was bountiful evidence of the part she had played, captured Breda guns, Fiat guns, rifles, glasses, knives. Often the men gathered in groups in the messdecks to spin “dits” about the more hectic times. It seemed unfair that nothing had been written about them, and so this book was born." 
http://www.gunplot.net/matapan/scrapironflotilla.html

Edited by notyourfather

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4 minutes ago, notyourfather said:

"That could be, but they had a light point 8 inch machine gun called a Breda which was apparently very good. And a matter of fact they had them on some of our Australian boats, and they souvenired them because point 8 ammunition was available for us as well"
http://australiansatwarfilmarchive.unsw.edu.au/archive/67-lloyd-saltmarsh

"There was bountiful evidence of the part she had played, captured Breda guns, Fiat guns, rifles, glasses, knives. Often the men gathered in groups in the messdecks to spin “dits” about the more hectic times. It seemed unfair that nothing had been written about them, and so this book was born." 
http://www.gunplot.net/matapan/scrapironflotilla.html

The first transcipt mentions nothing about Bredas being on the decks of the Vampire during the Air attack on her and the Hermes. Nor does it mention the Breda's being added to Vampire specifically. 

The second link also doesn't state if the Breda's were ever added or removed during a refit at Singapore before she was deployed to the BEF, nor does it state the the Breda's were used in the air attack on the Hermes or herself.

There is no evidence that Vampire used them or had them on her when she was sunk. The model in WoWs depicts her just before she was sunk, hence the Torpedo arrangement that was a result of the refit at Singapore, where her two mounts were replaced with a single triple mount.

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1 hour ago, darkflame88 said:

You're right to be confused, Vampire only ever had Lewis guns or Vickers Machine guns, both were .303 and one or two QF 2 Pounder guns mounted as AA defense. There is no reason she would have had Italian weapons mounted. 

They were in the Mediterranean so they probably captured a few from the Italians.

"It was great fun-I don't think. All our guns were blazing, for the planes were very low. Vampire's starboard Breda hit one machine in three places. Its port engine sputtered and stopped. The plane circled round out of range as if the pilot had been hit, and then left. I don't think it got back home.

http://www.gunplot.net/matapan/scrapironflott8.html

The link above mentions Bredas on other Australian ships. It seemed to be a common thing going on then. And the Australian War Memorial does have photographs that Bredas were mounted on the Vendetta and Perth at least at some point.

58 minutes ago, darkflame88 said:

The second link also doesn't state if the Breda's were ever added or removed during a refit at Singapore before she was deployed to the BEF, nor does it state the the Breda's were used in the air attack on the Hermes or herself. 

That's because the Bredas were added while they were still in the Mediterranean, not in Singapore. Maybe they were removed in Singapore, maybe they were not. If they weren't removed, it could be due to any number of reasons. No time. Not yet scheduled. No replacement guns. Who knows.

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44 minutes ago, Thyaliad said:

They were in the Mediterranean so they probably captured a few from the Italians.

"It was great fun-I don't think. All our guns were blazing, for the planes were very low. Vampire's starboard Breda hit one machine in three places. Its port engine sputtered and stopped. The plane circled round out of range as if the pilot had been hit, and then left. I don't think it got back home.

http://www.gunplot.net/matapan/scrapironflott8.html

The link above mentions Bredas on other Australian ships. It seemed to be a common thing going on then. And the Australian War Memorial does have photographs that Bredas were mounted on the Vendetta and Perth at least at some point.

That's because the Bredas were added while they were still in the Mediterranean, not in Singapore. Maybe they were removed in Singapore, maybe they were not. If they weren't removed, it could be due to any number of reasons. No time. Not yet scheduled. No replacement guns. Who knows.

It would be fine if the WoWs model was of her in the Med, but that would mean she would have her two triple or quad torpedo mounts, not her single triple mount. Her model depicts her during the her time stationed with the BEF in the Indian Ocean, after the refit at Singapore upto her sinking in April 1942 and I can find no references of her having Breda's during that time period. 

As for not having the time to refit them, why then does The Australian Navy https://www.navy.gov.au/hmas-vampire-i list her as having 62 x 2-pounder guns (embarked in Singapore, 5 January 1942) when she was in the Pacific/Indian Ocean but there is no mention of any Breda's or other larger than .303 machine gun AA armaments besides a 1 x 12-pounder gun (embarked in Alexandria, April 1941) though that was apparently removed during the Late 1941/Early 1942 Singapore refit. If they didn't have the time during the several months she spent undergoing the refit to remove the Breda's, why would they then have time to add an additional 62 AA guns.

They're not going to keep a few Italian machine guns when they're putting that many British guns on her decks.

3 hours ago, hurricaneflyer said:

Some of you Aussies probably know why, but I am markedly confused. Look under the AA defense bar and it states both the 13 and 20mm AA mounts are Bredas.

It may be that WG decided to make a hybrid of her time in the Med and when she sank in April 1942 to keep her a Tier 3 as her actual 1942 armament was far too large for that tier. 

This has been spoken about in other forum posts on the NA forums and no one knows why she has Breda's, either 13 or 20 mm guns as there is no record of her recieving them after january 1942 when she was in the Indian and Pacific Ocean's.

Edited by darkflame88

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2 hours ago, darkflame88 said:

As for not having the time to refit them, why then does The Australian Navy https://www.navy.gov.au/hmas-vampire-i list her as having 62 x 2-pounder guns (embarked in Singapore, 5 January 1942) when she was in the Pacific/Indian Ocean but there is no mention of any Breda's or other larger than .303 machine gun AA armaments besides a 1 x 12-pounder gun (embarked in Alexandria, April 1941) though that was apparently removed during the Late 1941/Early 1942 Singapore refit. If they didn't have the time during the several months she spent undergoing the refit to remove the Breda's, why would they then have time to add an additional 62 AA guns. 

I am guessing those are her official armaments. They don't mention the Vendetta or the Perth having Bredas either, even though there is photographic evidence that they had them at some point of time. Those Bredas might have been unofficial additions done on the crew's own initiative, therefore it may not have been listed on official armament specifications. So it is possible that the Vampire might have had Bredas, as per the testimony in the earlier link.

The Bredas could have been removed in Singapore, but there is no evidence of the guns either being kept or removed.

2 hours ago, darkflame88 said:

They're not going to keep a few Italian machine guns when they're putting that many British guns on her decks. 

Why not? I don't see how the addition of 62 British AA guns is evidence that the Bredas were removed. It just means 62 British AA guns were added.

It is possible they were planning on removing the Bredas, but it was a lower priority and they never got around to doing it. I mean they already had working AA guns that the crew were familiar with (they shot down at least one plane with it) , so as long as they have ample stores of Breda ammunition leftover they might as well continue using it.

In any case I think WG probably wanted to create a Mediterranean version of the Vampire with Breda, then decided not to somewhere along the line and didn't bother to remodel it.

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1 hour ago, Thyaliad said:

I mean they already had working AA guns that the crew were familiar with (they shot down at least one plane with it)

Many of her crew and her captain were replaced after she passed into the Indian Ocean, again, this comes from the offical link I posted above, the chances those crew who were newly arrived from Australia were familiar with the Breda 13mm or 20mm seems slim. 

1 hour ago, Thyaliad said:

so as long as they have ample stores of Breda ammunition leftover they might as well continue using it.

She was extensively refit, the refit lasted for nearly 2 months, after she collided with another ship. I doubt that that any ammunition belonging to an enemy nation would have been left on the ship after the refit. They rebuilt her, added a substantial number of new AA guns and removed a torpedo mount, they're not going to leave any ammunition on the ship while taking her apart. Why would they return ammunition that wasn't designed for her official armaments?

1 hour ago, Thyaliad said:

In any case I think WG probably wanted to create a Mediterranean version of the Vampire with Breda, then decided not to somewhere along the line and didn't bother to remodel it.

It's more likely that WG couldn't justify having her 1942 spec at tier III as that many AA guns would be too powerful when compared to the Tier IV/V CV's she would have gone up against pre CV rework. Even now with the current CV's, she would have too many AA guns to be classified as a tier III ship. Her actual 1942 AA armement would break the mechanics of the game and her original armament would have been too weak.

So WG decided to do what they normally do and completely ignore reality and produced a model that was nothing like the 1942 data that they claimed to have based her on.

Edited by darkflame88

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43 minutes ago, darkflame88 said:

Most of her crew were replaced after she passed into the Indian Ocean, again, this comes from the offical link I posted above, the chances those crew who were newly arrived from Australia were familiar with the Breda 13mm or 20mm seems slim.

The article just says many of her crew were newly arrived. It doesn't say if they were replacements or additional manpower, nor does it indicate the percentage. In other words, how many is many? Those newer crew members could have been assigned to other duties, if they didn't get some impromptu training from the veteran crew members.

50 minutes ago, darkflame88 said:

She was extensively refit, the refit lasted for nearly 2 months, after she collided with another ship. I doubt that that any ammunition belonging to an enemy nation would have been left on the ship after the refit. 

The guns may have been on her decks but I doubt the Navy would have left ammunition they couldn't use on their other vessels on Vampire. And as they couldn't supply her with them, I doubt they had enough to actually use them.

Err no. you misread that article. It says she got sent to Singapore for a refit because engine problems made her unsuitable for combat operations in the Mediterranean, not because of a collision. That collision happened later, when she was already in Singapore for her refit and it only delayed her operational readiness for about 2 weeks.

Besides, the point I am trying to make is if you have working guns and ammo for it left in storage, then why would you not use it? It doesn't matter if it is an enemy gun, all that matters is there is ammo and your men know how to fire it. And unless Vampire had exhausted her supply of Italian ammo back when she was in the Mediterranean (we don't know) she would most likely have had Italian ammo left in her storage, because it is not as though she was going to be shooting any birds on her way to Singapore.

Look at it this way, I have a limited set of guns, limited manpower to install them and limited ammo for them, who should I give them to? Someone who has no guns, or someone with an enemy gun and ammo for it. I think the choice is pretty clear.

Anyway I think I am about done with this discussion as it has drifted quite a bit. I just wanted to counter your claim that the Vampire never had Bredas when there  is indeed some testimony. Now that has been established, the discussion has instead moved to whether Vampire had them when she was sunk, and the answer is we don't know. Yeah the Bredas may have been removed during the refit, but we do not know and we don't have any concrete evidence to prove it. The fact that Vampire got a refit is not evidence enough that she lost her Bredas.

 

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