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Max_Battle

Damage mitigation - slot 4 mods that help positioning

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Some comments in the Hipper Build thread have me wondering again about the best mod for Slot 4.

I will normally tend towards rudder mod because I try to watch incoming fire and use the A and D component of the WASD hack while retaining as much speed as possible.

But there are no doubt ships that benefit from prop mod and who use the W and S component of the WASD hack more.

What do you prefer?

Does it come down to individual ships for you?

Do you research rudder shift first for a given ship before deciding on either mod or do you "just reckon" speeding up and slowing down is better than weaving side to side as a better way to avoid damage?

I'm always impressed by someone angled away from me at max range (my cousin Max_Range, not to be confused with my evil uncle Max_Rage) who can speed up and slow down to avoid shells while not really turning at all.

Impressed and infuriated I should say 😛

I'm sure it comes down to what ship you are in.

What do you think?

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In my opinion, It depends on the ship in question and also your general playstyle. You already answer your question there.

And that pun is almost criminal.

I used Prop mod for speed juke and easier reposition, very useful in campers or slow-rudder ship.

Edited by Earl_of_Arland
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all my ships are spend jukes. if you are crawling to reposition, no amount of wasd hack can save you.

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A simple choice

BB Wows_icon_modernization_PCM023_DamageCon

CA\CL Wows_icon_modernization_PCM025_SteeringG/ Wows_icon_modernization_PCM024_Engine_Mo

DD Wows_icon_modernization_PCM024_Engine_Mo/ Wows_icon_modernization_PCM025_SteeringG

CV . . . Menu_icon_airgroups_2.png

SS Error 401 Consumable_PCY043_Max_Depth.png

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WASD hax is only somewhat useful for cruisers with tight turning radius, like the Pasta cruisers for example.

Hipper & the rest of the German line are like the 2nd worst for the zig-zagging maneuvers (only better than the Russians).

The only cruisers that use the rudder mod in my fleet are Edin & Mino because they've got the prop mod baked into the ships, and Zara because she has tight turning radius.

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I'd go for Engine mod. It's better to get out of the ellipse where the shells would land than spending a little bit more time in it. You might get a random citadel if you stay a little bit longer because plunging fire.
out.png.e1b909ae60efb05a226eec9c7752c034.png

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Propulsion mod is almost the go now as everyome has kinda learned to account for turning, but still struggle with throttle, I've been running prop more and more on CAs lately

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Hmmm all good thoughts.

Thanks.

Think I may defer to prop mod based on what everyone is saying.

I have mixed and matched myself but I understand the argument for prop mod better now.

What a wonderful forum.

Thanks!

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45 minutes ago, Manacetamol said:

A simple choice

BB Wows_icon_modernization_PCM023_DamageCon

But this doesn't stack with BoS does it?

Wouldn't BoS as a captain skill and rudder as a mod be better?

(I mean if you can).

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15 minutes ago, Max_Battle said:

But this doesn't stack with BoS does it?

Wouldn't BoS as a captain skill and rudder as a mod be better?

(I mean if you can).

It stacks with BoS. Very useful for the tanky ships like Kremlin & Conqueror.

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26 minutes ago, Reinhard_of_Avercland said:

It stacks with BoS. Very useful for the tanky ships like Kremlin & Conqueror.

Oh.

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I use Propulsion mod an almost every DD I own.  The only ones I use rudder shift on are ships that never stop in smoke and just keep running and dodging, like Russian and French DD's.  Speed juking is extremely effective, and the prop mod helps with this.  I'll often be sitting stern into a cap, get radared, then hit reverse to go further into the cap and watch as all the shells land ship lengths away in front of me - no one ever expects that move!  Then you wait the reload and a couple of seconds before the shells are about to be fired you go full ahead, and watch as all the shells sail well behind you!  Bonus points for having the balls to stop again after that while still radared for a third speed juke...

1 hour ago, Max_Battle said:

But this doesn't stack with BoS does it?

Wouldn't BoS as a captain skill and rudder as a mod be better?

(I mean if you can).

There is only one BB build, anything else is sub-optimal.

Edited by Moggytwo
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prop mod on basically everything, rudder mod is effective a lot less than you think 

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3 hours ago, Max_Battle said:

But this doesn't stack with BoS does it?

Wouldn't BoS as a captain skill and rudder as a mod be better?

(I mean if you can).

signal -20%

skill -15%

upgarde -15%

fire duration after that = 34.68s

 

more >> https://wiki.wargaming.net/en/Ship:Fire#Extinguishing_Fires

Edited by Manacetamol
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4 minutes ago, Manacetamol said:

signal -15%

skill -20%

upgarde -15%

fire duration after that = 30s

34.7 seconds after those modifiers are applied actually - they are multiplicative.

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I have started swapping out some rudder mods for prop mods.

Several ships feel like they are performing better, manoeverability wise now.

20 hours ago, CV_NMSL said:

prop mod on basically everything, rudder mod is effective a lot less than you think 

Feeling it.

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We need to revisit this.

Just had a discussion.

It was suggested to me that prop mod does not work above 10kts.

This is because all ships have reached full engine power by 10kts and therefore as the mod says:
propmod.png.c7ca61f503fea063b9323a7bbd1dcecf.png

"Time taken to reach full engine power when accelerating" actually only means before reaching 10kts and the "Reduces time to full speed" therefore only affects the time your ship is travelling at 0-10kts.

So if you have a ship that has a top speed of 35 kts, the propmod assists you for less than 1/3 of your speed capacity and only at the very bottom end.

Now this might be fine if you are a DD and you intend to completely stop a lot (in smoke, behind cover, open water dead stopping as a tactic) and then take off again quickly, or if you are going to do the same in a cruiser of some kind (ie dead stop, angled away from enemy and jink backwards and forwards from 0kts to small +ve knts and -ve kts...) even then, if your DD has a top speed of 40kts, propmod only helps you for 25% of your speed capacity (but as this is as you first take off this may be acceptable).

BUT...

If you are playing ANY other boat and you don't intend to slow under 10kts, then propmod is useless... and rudder mod obviously becomes the superior mod (unless you want the slot 4 damage con mod).

Is this correct?

I am seriously asking this as a question.

What I have said above was given to me as fact and I want to confirm.

I'm not saying this is the case, I am asking if this is the case.

 

Edited by Max_Battle

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Speed juking doesn't really require you use the full speed. In fact the low-mid speed juking works better than the full speed juking because braking from full speed to 0 takes longer that you might get tagged by a salvo that is aimed behind to your actual position during the full speed.

Example:

  1. Starts from 0  -. First salvo incoming.
  2. Speed up to half - Dodged it.
  3. Slow down to 0 or 1/4 speed - Second salvo incoming.
  4. Repeat step 2 or go reverse - Dodged again.
  5. Rinse & repeat

I've been having fun with Mainz by using this tactic although Mainz is actually slower than Hipper.

Rudder mod is mostly for the memes (I'd blame Yuro for this). I find any ships with less than 15 secs rudder shift time are workable without it.

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9 hours ago, Max_Battle said:

We need to revisit this.

Just had a discussion.

It was suggested to me that prop mod does not work above 10kts.

This is because all ships have reached full engine power by 10kts and therefore as the mod says:
propmod.png.c7ca61f503fea063b9323a7bbd1dcecf.png

"Time taken to reach full engine power when accelerating" actually only means before reaching 10kts and the "Reduces time to full speed" therefore only affects the time your ship is travelling at 0-10kts.

Are we not overthinking this?

Although if WG use a more direct wording such as "Time taken to reach full speed.." that would be helpful.

Edited by zergling_

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8 hours ago, Reinhard_of_Avercland said:

Speed juking doesn't really require you use the full speed. In fact the low-mid speed juking works better than the full speed juking because braking from full speed to 0 takes longer that you might get tagged by a salvo that is aimed behind to your actual position during the full speed.

Example:

  1. Starts from 0  -. First salvo incoming.
  2. Speed up to half - Dodged it.
  3. Slow down to 0 or 1/4 speed - Second salvo incoming.
  4. Repeat step 2 or go reverse - Dodged again.
  5. Rinse & repeat

I've been having fun with Mainz by using this tactic although Mainz is actually slower than Hipper.

Rudder mod is mostly for the memes (I'd blame Yuro for this). I find any ships with less than 15 secs rudder shift time are workable without it.

Yes I'm not questioning that. I agree that works and I find it hard to hit ships whose captain does that effectively.

What I'm trying to confirm is that if you aren't or don't intend to do that a lot then rudder mod is a better choice.

IE - If you don't intend to stop, or your playstyle is to keep as much speed as you can (over 10 kts at least) then you aren't using the "ability" that propmod grants you.

 

I'm not saying that deadstopping and then doing little bursts backwards and forwards can't work.

I'm saying if you don't want to do that and would rather turn left and right as fast as you can, while at full throttle, then propmod does nothing for you.

 

At least that's what I'm trying to confirm, given the speed limitations of propmod.

 

(Kind of feel like it needs some testing. I've never used training rooms for anything before).

 

27 minutes ago, zergling_ said:

Are we not overthinking this?

Although if WG use a more direct wording such as "Time taken to reach full speed.." that would be helpful.

Hmmm. I'm not sure that would be any clearer.

If it only works under 10kts then "Reduces the time taken to reach 10kts" would be more accurate.

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10 hours ago, Max_Battle said:

"Time taken to reach full engine power when accelerating" actually only means before reaching 10kts and the "Reduces time to full speed" therefore only affects the time your ship is travelling at 0-10kts.

This was what I was told as well.

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1 minute ago, Thyaliad said:

This was what I was told as well.

Hmmm well, it seems the answer to my OP is far clearer given this understanding.

To summarise:

Should you use Prop Mod or Rudder mod on a given ship?

BB: No. You probably want Dam Con II.

DD: Almost certainly Prop Mod with a couple of exceptions (UK DD as an example and maybe some DDs with truly horrible rudder shift times).

Cruiser: Use Prop Mod only if you fully intend to do a lot of speed juking under 10kts. IE - onlyyour playstyle involves stopping a lot... but if your cruiser play has you weaving at 10kts+ for most of the battle, then Rudder Mod is going to be of far more use - even if it is of more use on some ships than others.

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