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Neufert1

DD players how you feeling now with DD ?

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[TR_MU]
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DD gameplay harder for me reason of new patch , again i have to change DD gameplay style reason of radar ships. Almost 3-4 radarships in almost every battles . They are moving as double grouped and they can see during almost 40 second (when first radar done, other ships using radar and with upgrades around 50 seconds). and all DD is destroyed around max 5-10 min 🙂

DD mission is too hard, you have to be run from : Torp / CV / Radar /  sonar , Stupid radars / sonars  can see you behind of the mountains,

Become DD, without long range torpedos really like suicide but left 200K exp to shimakaze :))  i hope everything gonna be allright with shimakaze .

 

What is your solutions as DD players with 10/12 km ranged torps  ? I can dodge CV, not too important like radar, but radar really too hard without long range torp.

(CV is really difficult  for Harugumo, you  can take 15K damage from 1 drop bomb attack or twice rocket salvo inside of the smoke,  there is no need successfull attack)

 

Actually i want to know DD players things and feels.

 

 

 

 

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I find many games are now decided not by which team has the best DD, or the best CV, but instead which team has the best-played Russian radar cruisers. Particularly, Tallinn. You face a couple of those pushing up carefully, well supported, and they can pretty much sweep out any DD from the cap zone.

Fortunately its 50/50 odds that you'll be on the winning or losing side of this. And to be fair its not just the radar cruisers, everyone else must do their job, such that they can get to and hold their forward positions.

I take the view that a DD has to play a support role in radar heavy games. Assuming a CV is also in play, my primary aim is to keep me and my cruisers alive, the secondary being to screen and hopefully kill the enemy DD. Ironically you have to be very careful with smoke, since you have to be sure the smoke is out of radar range or your smoke dropped for friendly ships becomes a deathtrap.

Long story short, its a challenge - but one which both teams have to deal with. You just have to be better at it than the opposing DD.

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[SMOKE]
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while all that stated are surely there .. it do not take away the fact that DD are deny their fair share of reward so until the game actually reward support roles done , many DD player will simply ignore and go elsewhere and its not help by ( usually ) a team of guns that would not in turn support the light force ... its getting to a point when I play DD at high tier, its everyone for their own .. it just exhibit in such manner more often than a truly team work ... and that meta also severely limit many of the old tech tree DD who simply are not that effective countering other DD now we had French and Euro machine guns / super fast torp , and the range as incurred by the Radars simply pus them even further ... 

My take is not that you need to be better at opposing the enemy DD, for many who still play DD its about simply mastering the stealth game and learn when NOT to fight it more than to fight it ... I mea do you seriously go toe to toe with other DD if you are in a Kagero or even Shima , not even the Z-52 and Gearing can match the Royal Nay, Ikean DD and French ; the drastic reduction of old tech tree DD population simply tells

But I would say the Soviet Radar simply only an extra straw on the camel's back

 

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1 hour ago, Rina_Pon said:

I find many games are now decided not by which team has the best DD, or the best CV, but instead which team has the best-played Russian radar cruisers. Particularly, Tallinn. You face a couple of those pushing up carefully, well supported, and they can pretty much sweep out any DD from the cap zone.

Fortunately its 50/50 odds that you'll be on the winning or losing side of this. And to be fair its not just the radar cruisers, everyone else must do their job, such that they can get to and hold their forward positions.

I take the view that a DD has to play a support role in radar heavy games. Assuming a CV is also in play, my primary aim is to keep me and my cruisers alive, the secondary being to screen and hopefully kill the enemy DD. Ironically you have to be very careful with smoke, since you have to be sure the smoke is out of radar range or your smoke dropped for friendly ships becomes a deathtrap.

Long story short, its a challenge - but one which both teams have to deal with. You just have to be better at it than the opposing DD.

Okay, you're completely right about all of them. So i have few  question   but firstly i have try to explain of DD situation :

1- Everyone generally (%70 ) waiting behind of the mountains or they waiting too far from cap points and everyone said " Capture this area". Meaning of No protect No radar support no fire support

2- All players says  " hey DD ! kill DD first" and they are waiting behind of mountains or they waiting too far from cap points.

Meaning of those :

You will follow 1 or 2 DD, you will spot and destroy DD, spot Torpedos , cap point and finally only you'll be rewarded with 20K damage but you're be winner if you don't be destroyed .

3-Where is the point of become DD ? If i follow 1 BB,  min 100K damage guranteed but yes you're team be loser generally if you doing that.

I've tried 2 ways, team focused or single game focused. Generally i'm destroyed when i play team focused but otherwise i'm survived almost %80 and i'm rewarded with min 100K damage and 600-700K credits / exp etc..

 

Ok here is the my question :

Why should i destroy dd , cap point, spot torp , push enemy team and should i get  big risk ? May be you can focused to teamgame in clan wars but in solo game's advantages much than team game for DD.

 

TEAM focused game 

20200814173700_1.thumb.jpg.536f8dc36664bc07c8ddb3d467235903.jpg

 

 

Solo game

20200804073723_1.thumb.jpg.b166abb9feb776cf11a6c3df0745c66a.jpg

 

 

20200805153403_1.thumb.jpg.39e7bf6107c502ef8024e370e325b3ed.jpg

Edited by Neufert1
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2 hours ago, NineKunG_TH said:

Fun and Happy with it.
 

  Hide contents

 

 

Seems so good ! are you playing solo or focused to the team ?

Edited by Neufert1

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[STMP]
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@Neufert1 Don't know, no one told me what to do. I just go cap and do something else.

*last DD screenshot i have play random

สปอยเลอร์

shot-20_07.21_22_39.22-0645.thumb.jpg.c154151e2f5c10f65e8d0f8bd8ed818e.jpgshot-20_07.21_22_39.27-0842.thumb.jpg.5ec14eb8d6dddb5f7f0b3a965894d756.jpg

 

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Playing DD definetely feels more challenging now, at least I switch my focus from getting more damage done to simply survive until the end. Sometimes when there's 2 CVs in the game I feel like I am playing a stealth survival game such as Alien Isolation or Outlast instead.

On top of that playing DD requires a lot more concentration, when I am playing cruisers or BBs I will play my phone when situations are relatively calm, but when playing DD I often found myself sitting up straight and focus on the screen, while the phone is closed and put at the side. 

9 hours ago, Neufert1 said:

What is your solutions as DD players with 10/12 km ranged torps

Actually its not like you have to throw the torpedoes off whenever they are readied. Use them when situation allows is always better than forcing your ship to overextend & throw torps, but gets spotted & killed because you are in a vulnerable position. Read the enemy team and memorize the radar ranges, when CV spot the flank for you identify which radar ship you are facing and pay close attention to their position. Try not to overextend when the radar ships are around, and spams F3/F5 key when they are spotted so your team can hopefully deletes them. 

In terms of torps, use them against ships that are pushing in or heading towards a destination (for example, enemy ships that are rushing back to defend base) for maximum effect, 10/12 km torps are still usable in mid/late games, do not overextend too much in the early game just to throw torps. I think most people knew this, but well I might just repeat it here; you can still throw torps on targets further than your torp range by a couple of kilometers, if they are pushing in. For example if there's a Jean Bart pushing in 13/14km away from a shimakaze, shima can still throw her 12km torps towards the Jean as Jean will "catch the torps" during her push. 

A good law to abide is to torp targets inside your torp range circle or a target sailing into your torp range circle, such as the red circle shown, the repub is 13.1km away but his sailing line (idk what the line infront of his minimap icon calls) crosses into the 12km torp circle in the minimap, therefore the minimap indicates that the repub is sailing into the 12km range of torps, thus as the shima, you can release the wall of skill. (By the way, yes this is a screenshot from youtube since I am too lazy to create in game footage or screenshots for demonstration)

All in all, be patient. By not dying early in a DD you are contributing to the team. 

Forum.png

Edited by rookieFTW
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4 hours ago, NineKunG_TH said:

Don't know, no one told me what to do. I just go cap and do something else.

LOL!

That's gold.

Should be DD players' Motto!

:Smile_veryhappy:

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[OZCO]
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it's impossible to play DDs at Tier IX and X, i'm telling you there's no reward and just frustrates players..

you go up to cap, opposition sees capping, tallin puts out radar, all of a sudden you have 4 battleships and a DD shelling you. GG.

also when you are chasing a BB to torpedo, your own team shells them so they know there's a DD spotting, by the time you reach to fire torpedos at 8km, your team with 19km guns have killed them - you get no points if you didn't spot them initially but more importantly, you don't get the chance to PLAY and have FUN with your torpedoes - that's why you are in a DD! i'm playing yukakaze and i get spotted and shelled - usually within 5mins - the only option is to hide, don't help team, and then come out at 10min mark. very very sad gameplay. i wish i never bought premium DD.

Edited by DUX_2020

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15 minutes ago, DUX_2020 said:

it's impossible to play DDs at Tier IX and X, i'm telling you there's no reward and just frustrates players..

you go up to cap, opposition sees capping, tallin puts out radar, all of a sudden you have 4 battleships and a DD shelling you. GG.

also when you are chasing a BB to torpedo, your own team shells them so they know there's a DD spotting, by the time you reach to fire torpedos at 8km, your team with 19km guns have killed them - you get no points if you didn't spot them initially but more importantly, you don't get the chance to PLAY and have FUN with your torpedoes - that's why you are in a DD! i'm playing yukakaze and i get spotted and shelled - usually within 5mins - the only option is to hide, don't help team, and then come out at 10min mark. very very sad gameplay. i wish i never bought premium DD.

Hmmm.

My Benham crew agrees with you.

My Fletcher crew says, "meh".

And my Gearing crew disagrees with you.

 

usdd.png

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9 hours ago, Neufert1 said:

Ok here is the my question :

Why should i destroy dd , cap point, spot torp , push enemy team and should i get  big risk ? May be you can focused to teamgame in clan wars but in solo game's advantages much than team game for DD.

Dude, it's a Yugumo! IJN DDs are meant to be played solo.

Or, with more nuance - IJN DDs like Yugumo are meant to spend most of their time out farming damage off enemy BBs. Everything else is a function of opportunity. If you can spot, spot. If you can kill the enemy DD, kill the enemy DD. If you can cap, cap.

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[OZCO]
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Wargaming needs to fix DDs vs radar, captain skills, aircraft spotting, ultrasound etc.

or...

increase torps range min 10km, lower aircraft spotting km, or give DDs a radar jammer or something, this is ridiculous

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I'm my own man do my own thing.

sure I'll cap for the team if opportunity arise but if they can't defend it? screw it.

CV? Radar? suck it up.

I'll adapt to them but that doesn't mean I accept them.

Edited by PGM991

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It's all part of the game, CV > DD, like the CC's say, play passively...why RUSH the cap in first minute...when CV is out there in the skies, play passively around fighters, radars. Of course you might think you are useless, but spotting enemies and enemy DDs, giving these valuable information to your team is better than nothing.

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13 hours ago, Neufert1 said:

Solo game

20200805153403_1.thumb.jpg.39e7bf6107c502ef8024e370e325b3ed.jpg

What I consider a pretty typical Yugumo game.

2044379331_Screenshot(74).thumb.png.f5fb260b38ab65147a9501958524615f.png

The numbers and ribbon spread seem pretty similar to yours. I would not, however, say that I was playing "solo". Far from it. Very close teamplay with my Neptune allowed us to bag both the enemy Ostergotland and the Georgia. It was a close game we needed everything we could to pull the win. This was a no-cv game so a lot of my role was spotting, and screening my team from the enemy DD.

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[REPOI]
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Playing DD's in high tiers now is more "roll of a dice". You can have one monster game (dealing dmg, capping etc) to doing absolutely nothing (can't cap because radars, cv deny), torps missing because reasons.  

Solution: Is there even one? Probably not. If CV is determined to kill/deny you, he can and he will kill/deny you unless he is a donkey. Let's not forget about divisions who will deny your attempt to actually try.

Only thing I can advice is look heavily at the mini map: 
Ship placements (how many radar ships are coming towards your side, etc)
Your team placements(are they lemming one side or coming towards ur side) 
Planes movement (was it rocket, db, torpedo planes)
Enemy dd movement(what type of dd are u facing, does he have better stealth than you, etc)
Division movements. (Are they going towards your cap?)
(List actually goes on)

Playing DD as of now is purely on your experience in decision making (That's why you see at least 7 out of 10 DD players are horribly bad)  

I am only hoping that the announced air detect changes on the DD goes through as it will help slightly. (Unfortunately it's a slight nerf to Halland) 

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So @Neufert1 I saw this thread you made. Are you running ranged mod Harugumo? AFT with range mod? I can see that you are and that is to be expected. You want range, you got the range but you got to pay for the shell travel time where the shell is light and it's speed drops off quite fast over distance. And if you are going to play this far back, you might as well play something else instead. You are a useless asset to the team sitting far back like that. Harugumo's 12.6km base range is already sufficient.

You might really want to consider your builds and this is one of the first threads I have seen someone crying about this thing. 

SmartSelect_20200815-140554_Chrome.jpg

Edited by HoChunHao

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2 hours ago, HoChunHao said:

Are you running ranged mod Harugumo? AFT with range mod?

He got PTSDs from radars I guess 🤣 

But @Neufert1why blame the dev team when your Haru build is a total mistake?

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3 hours ago, HoChunHao said:

So @Neufert1 I saw this thread you made. Are you running ranged mod Harugumo? AFT with range mod? I can see that you are and that is to be expected. You want range, you got the range but you got to pay for the shell travel time where the shell is light and it's speed drops off quite fast over distance. And if you are going to play this far back, you might as well play something else instead. You are a useless asset to the team sitting far back like that. Harugumo's 12.6km base range is already sufficient.

You might really want to consider your builds and this is one of the first threads I have seen someone crying about this thing. 

SmartSelect_20200815-140554_Chrome.jpg

Ok, you're right , actually i have to use main range reason of Torp range for protect yourself from enemies. But don't forget  radar and enemy DD. If you use base range, you'll be destroyed max after 1 min and  by enemy DD torp / radar  / or other ships. Therefore Harugumo baserange is useless now. A.L Nevsky base range if i remember correct around 16. KM and i'm using now 23KM. and shells didn't go after 19 sec later and i can hit which i want with hi accuracy.

Could you tell me another ship long delayed  shell travel time like same with harugumo ? X tier ships can hit you from 27 km and their shells didn't reach to target 27 sec later :).  I'm using 17 km range and shells goes to 19 sec later, if we use same theory, BBS shells have to be goes after 27 sec later. Can you hit to enemies with this delayed time ?

Edited by Neufert1

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22 minutes ago, rookieFTW said:

He got PTSDs from radars I guess 🤣 

But @Neufert1why blame the dev team when your Haru build is a total mistake?

Ok, could you tell me best build for Harugumo ? I've tried everything, all builds / captain skills... Almost all of them won't working.  

 

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Edited by Neufert1

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34 minutes ago, Neufert1 said:

Therefore Harugumo baserange is useless now. A.L Nevsky base range if i remember correct around 16. KM and i'm using now 23KM. and shells didn't go after 19 sec later and i can hit which i want with hi accuracy.

12.55km is more than enough for Haru already, she is design for engagements around or less than 13km, any range further than that she loses efficiency a lot due to the light shells. Don't use Nevsky as a comparison, she is the perfect embodiment of Soviet gunnery 🤣 

Even though both Nevsky and Haru have shell velocities of 1000m/s, you need to take air drag and shell weight into factors, Nevsky's shell is 97.5kg while haru only has 13kg, and Nevsky literally has no air drag, therefore shells won't "float" much. Making her having laser accuracy.

34 minutes ago, Neufert1 said:

BBS shells have to be goes after 27 sec later

Nope, BB shells are weighted more than 800kg or sometimes, more than 1 tonne (lel Shikishima has 2.62 tonne shells). Do you think they will have a floaty arc? Don't forget that BB shells use more gun powder/propellent (correct me if I am wrong) to fire compared to a mere 10cm DD gun. 

28 minutes ago, Neufert1 said:

best build for Harugumo ?

To be truth I am still at the Kitakaze and I have no plans to move to Haru, since Kita's playstyle doesn't suit me at all so I rarely touched her. This is Flamu's build, feel free to use it as a basis. In my case I will switch the basic fire training to either Demo expert/superintendent. https://youtu.be/2F2wUWDF6bY

 

 

Edited by rookieFTW

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If you are dying 1min in, then it's on you for putting yourself into unfavorable positions that gets yourself killed. Nevsky's base range of 19km is more than enough. It is your overly passive playstyle and I believe you have shared screenshots where you are backlining in your ships while having barely any damage contributed to your team. I have no issues with Harugumo at all with it's 12.6km base range.

This all falls into a you problem, not the ships. Like Rookie has mentioned, various factors are taken into account for shell flight time. It's initial velocity is only useful at close ranges. Shell drag, it's weight, etc. You don't seem to get a grasp at this basic concept. Just because 2 ships let alone different class and caliber shares the same initial shell velocity, it doesn't mean it's flight time should be the same. understand those stuff first before you start comparing shell flight time. If you are going to double range build your Gearing, Shima, Daring, you would pretty much get around the same results with all those factors being taken into account. If you are going for a double range build Harugumo, oh well, you got to suck up with the shell. You won't do yourself and/or your team any good. But the same can be said if you go for a normal generic Harugumo build as you would have gotten yourself killed in the first minute.

So to sum it up, if you can't make a single/double range build work, you won't make a normal Harugumo with 12.6km base range work. Like even with your range build, I do actually doubt your contributions to the team.

I faced you in a game yesterday when you were in your Nevsky and all I can say is that you are constantly backlining with your range build putting your team in a huge disadvantage. The only thing I see that you contributed to your team in that game is more stress/weight on their shoulders.

This is a YOU issue now pretty much and only YOU can work on that. Improve on your playstyle first. Solo rush into cap first and die? Well, it is you

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1 hour ago, rookieFTW said:

12.55km is more than enough for Haru already, she is design for engagements around or less than 13km, any range further than that she loses efficiency a lot due to the light shells. Don't use Nevsky as a comparison, she is the perfect embodiment of Soviet gunnery 🤣 

Even though both Nevsky and Haru have shell velocities of 1000m/s, you need to take air drag and shell weight into factors, Nevsky's shell is 97.5kg while haru only has 13kg, and Nevsky literally has no air drag, therefore shells won't "float" much. Making her having laser accuracy.

Nope, BB shells are weighted more than 800kg or sometimes, more than 1 tonne (lel Shikishima has 2.62 tonne shells). Do you think they will have a floaty arc? Don't forget that BB shells use more gun powder/propellent (correct me if I am wrong) to fire compared to a mere 10cm DD gun. 

To be truth I am still at the Kitakaze and I have no plans to move to Haru, since Kita's playstyle doesn't suit me at all so I rarely touched her. This is Flamu's build, feel free to use it as a basis. In my case I will switch the basic fire training to either Demo expert/superintendent. https://youtu.be/2F2wUWDF6bY

 

 

Yes, again you're right 🙂 I will work hard for shimakaze, I'm good with torp ships.. Left 180K exp

Edited by Neufert1

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