In-Depth - Commonwealth Destroyer Line (proposal) - Commonwealth Series Part 2

[S4pp3R]

G'day Folks,

It's finally here... My Commonwealth Destroyer Video...

Hope there aren't any errors, (still disappointed I stuffed up spelling on Delhi on the first one...)

No idea when CLs will drop but probably in early September, time will tell.

As usual, YouTube and Reddit love appreciated but happy to have In-Depth discussions about anything in the videos, here, on YT or on Reddit!

 

 

[hurricaneflyer]

Nicely done.

Have you considered HMNZS Royalist as a potential addition? (perhaps maybe as a gimmick heavy tier 10?)

[S4pp3R]

1 hour ago, hurricaneflyer said:

Nicely done.

Have you considered HMNZS Royalist as a potential addition? (perhaps maybe as a gimmick heavy tier 10?)

Yeah it's a consideration but I went with Black Prince instead.

Here's the Commonwealth Overview...

 

 

[S4pp3R]

@hurricaneflyer CLs is currently work in progress, then we'll have CVs and then premiums.

It may take me a while (hopefully not as long as DDs) but I'll get it done.

[Thyaliad]

Very nice. Will listen to this when I am at work.

[Moggytwo]

I found this really interesting, and quite like most of the line progression.  I particularly like the overall concepts of the line, they sound fun to play, and I've always liked Haida game play, so basing a line off a similar style can only be a good thing.  Haida's overarching trait in my mind is that she can operate at ranges that are suicidal for most DD's, although that would get tougher as you increase in tiers.

I do have a couple of quibbles/queries.  You suggest that high alpha strike and good shell ballistics would be a strength of the line, but some of the line is quite undergunned, especially the tier 7 and 9.  Even if you gave them significantly buffed damage per shell, the tier 7 and 9 in particular would still be outdone on alpha by many same tier ships.  Also, you're looking at guns that already exist in game, with shell arcs that are pretty standard, and the RN 120/45's have notoriously bad shell arcs in game.  The 120/50's of Lightning/Orkan have much better arcs and are beautiful guns to use, but they don't exist in the proposed line.  Are you suggesting artificially improving the shell arcs, perhaps with reduced shell drag?  You'd need to do a LOT of improving to even get the arcs of the 120/45's up to the same arcs as Lightning's guns.

Since you're suggesting these are strengths of the line to make up for lower dpm, they have to be noticeably better than comparable weapons.  Generally WG seem to stick with historical shell ballistics pretty closely though, mostly tweaking air drag if they want to do any changes in this regard.  I'm not quibbling with the concept, better arcs/higher alpha/lower dpm is an excellent balance method for the line, I'm just unsure of the actual practicalities of making that happen.

[S4pp3R]

5 hours ago, Moggytwo said:

I found this really interesting, and quite like most of the line progression.  I particularly like the overall concepts of the line, they sound fun to play, and I've always liked Haida game play, so basing a line off a similar style can only be a good thing.  Haida's overarching trait in my mind is that she can operate at ranges that are suicidal for most DD's, although that would get tougher as you increase in tiers.

I do have a couple of quibbles/queries.  You suggest that high alpha strike and good shell ballistics would be a strength of the line, but some of the line is quite undergunned, especially the tier 7 and 9.  Even if you gave them significantly buffed damage per shell, the tier 7 and 9 in particular would still be outdone on alpha by many same tier ships.  Also, you're looking at guns that already exist in game, with shell arcs that are pretty standard, and the RN 120/45's have notoriously bad shell arcs in game.  The 120/50's of Lightning/Orkan have much better arcs and are beautiful guns to use, but they don't exist in the proposed line.  Are you suggesting artificially improving the shell arcs, perhaps with reduced shell drag?  You'd need to do a LOT of improving to even get the arcs of the 120/45's up to the same arcs as Lightning's guns.

Since you're suggesting these are strengths of the line to make up for lower dpm, they have to be noticeably better than comparable weapons.  Generally WG seem to stick with historical shell ballistics pretty closely though, mostly tweaking air drag if they want to do any changes in this regard.  I'm not quibbling with the concept, better arcs/higher alpha/lower dpm is an excellent balance method for the line, I'm just unsure of the actual practicalities of making that happen.

Thanks mate!

Yeah the higher alpha strike and lower DPM is in relation to RN, and yes it's artificially changed.

While WG like to use historical or realistic values I'm afraid that for balance they often throw them out the window; ref Soviet Tech Tree and take your pick of ships for line progression in any navy. 

But yes, you are right in regards to bending history a little.

I also like the idea of using the shells to change it up a bit as I felt it was a nice way to further differentiate the line from RN.

Whether they need very far in this direction is upto WG. The primary reason I went down this avenue was to provide another point of difference from RN (the most common argument against Commonwealth).

[S4pp3R]

15 hours ago, Thyaliad said:

Very nice. Will listen to this when I am at work.

Leme know your thoughts, harsh is perfectly fine if constructive

[Thyaliad]

Great video. The line is well thought out and the progression is good. Sounds like a fun line to play.

The wide selection of consumables is interesting. I am not too keen on radar though, since imo it is stepping on the Pan-Asians a bit too much, plus I dislike having radar on DDs. But that's just me. I don't like radar in general, as DDs already have things hard enough imo.

But the rest of the consumables sound really strong. Hydro with DFAA and creeping smoke allows them to cap with relative ease. Hydro for protection against torps, DFAA to give the middle finger to CVs and creeping smoke to annoy both CVs and other DDs trying to torp you. Just be careful of enemy DDs trying to rush your smoke, or getting caught by enemy radar, but all DDs have to be wary of that.

However I do have a few issues with the line. Like the transition from the Stuart to the Skeena actually costs you a gun in exchange for more torpedoes which I find a bit odd considering the line is supposed to be a gun-focused. But I suppose this could be compensated with improved gun reload. A similar transition happens with the Napier to the Battle.

Talking about the Battle, imo it may be better served as a Premium due to the odd all-forward gun arrangement it has. I know precedents exist with the stock hull Jutland, Richelieu and Izumo, but it still strikes me as oddly placed since the line has a more conventional gun layout. Most of the other ships with a similar gun layout are Premiums - eg B hull Monaghan, Lenin, Nelson - since they don't fit the main line. But that's just a personal nitpick though, plus I have no idea what to replace the Battle with.

Also what is the torpedo performance you are expecting for the line? I Imagine similar to the Royal Navy, but without the singe launch option?

[S4pp3R]

3 minutes ago, Thyaliad said:

Great video. The line is well thought out and the progression is good. Sounds like a fun line to play.

The wide selection of consumables is interesting. I am not too keen on radar though, since imo it is stepping on the Pan-Asians a bit too much, plus I dislike having radar on DDs. But that's just me. I don't like radar in general, as DDs already have things hard enough imo.

But the rest of the consumables sound really strong. Hydro with DFAA and creeping smoke allows them to cap with relative ease. Hydro for protection against torps, DFAA to give the middle finger to CVs and creeping smoke to annoy both CVs and other DDs trying to torp you. Just be careful of enemy DDs trying to rush your smoke, or getting caught by enemy radar, but all DDs have to be wary of that.

However I do have a few issues with the line. Like the transition from the Stuart to the Skeena actually costs you a gun in exchange for more torpedoes which I find a bit odd considering the line is supposed to be a gun-focused. But I suppose this could be compensated with improved gun reload. A similar transition happens with the Napier to the Battle.

Talking about the Battle, imo it may be better served as a Premium due to the odd all-forward gun arrangement it has. I know precedents exist with the stock hull Jutland, Richelieu and Izumo, but it still strikes me as oddly placed since the line has a more conventional gun layout. Most of the other ships with a similar gun layout are Premiums - eg B hull Monaghan, Lenin, Nelson - since they don't fit the main line. But that's just a personal nitpick though, plus I have no idea what to replace the Battle with.

Also what is the torpedo performance you are expecting for the line? I Imagine similar to the Royal Navy, but without the singe launch option?

Great feedback and some fair and interesting points.

Radar for me is almost a key component of the kit but I understand the part about stepping on PAs toes and it being an annoying thing in the first place (totally agree, still my personal most annoying thing in the game).

I personally really like the ambush idea and while PA having radar is interesting; I always thought it was a silly line to give radar to.

It's like it was slapped on at the end without synergising with the rest of their equipment being that their overall kit isn't really anti-DD. I really hate to say that but it's the honest truth. (I like PA DDs as a concept but I think it was a half-arsed one in many areas).

I would argue it would function better for CW DDs and compliment the kit. The primary reason I think it should be an option is to give an extra ASW tool.

I really wanted to push CW DDs hydro performance but didn't think I could feasibly argue the point without treading on KM toes.

How as an ASW tool? because it'll give them a very powerful AS screening tool and also the ability to ambush and overpower an enemy DD working in symbiosis with a Sub (my best prediction on how the meta will settle).

the two progressions points you raised are fair and I considered both. Losing a gun at T4-5 is ok and a common sight as ship lines progress to interwar or WW2 era ships.

Battle is a hard one but is almost a must pick thanks to 113s on Vendetta.

I wouldn't add the rear turret but keep it as is. She may just be less of an alpha strike DD compared to the others and more of a 'budget' Vendetta or utility-based ship.

The question becomes what do you replace it with? My earliest ideas were Tribal-Napier for 8-9 but after discussing it with many people I agreed that Battle was a better peogression.

And she is a premium, Khaibar is a battle-class and part of the proposed premium line-up.

Torpedoes I've left alone as that is something that WG have demonstrated willingness to tweak lots for the purposes of balance. I'd be ok with single-fire or not (I personally love single fire). If we were really to go bonkers, only single fire but once started, all have to launch. But I haven't thought that out, it's just a random idea I had.

So maybe start with RN and transition to more US-style, representing some CW nations shift from UK to US as an influencer?