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Rina_Pon

Advice to new DD players

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You'd be surprised - or perhaps not - that even in high tier games DDs still manage to get themselves killed in the first 6 minutes, not surviving the first encounter.

Let me give you some valuable advice: [F9] GET BACK!

Some times, given the right ship (German) and right conditions (no CV), popping the speed boost and driving right in to the cap at the start of the match is the right move. Almost every other time, it isn't.

No matter how bad a DD player you are, your sorry behind is worth more to your team alive than dead.

One thing that surprises me at least is the number of DD players who do not change their opening moves if there is an enemy CV (or 2), sailing off gallantly to the front to spot for their team, who, you know, have no need of it. They then get spotted and lose half their health to the CV rocket planes. Learn to read the CV. They almost always do the same thing: the deep sweep first over the enemy fleet, then they'll spend the next half of the game picking off the weakest link. So make sure this isn't you. Stick with the fleet, preferably close to an AA cruiser, until the intial sweeps subside.

Same deal with radar, especially 12 km radar. Think of it from the point of view of the enemy cruiser. Make it that for them to get close enough to you to hit you with radar, they will have to put themselves into far too much danger for it to be worth their while. If that means not contesting the cap, don't contest the cap. Wait it out.

I want to share with you two tips I've recently learned that can be quite effective.

1. Don't double-back.  The DDs biggest strength is concealment, but concealment is no use if the enemy already knows where you are. Whenever you get detected, and choose to disengage, don't double back the moment you get undetected. Especially with a CV in play. 90% chance he's sending planes to your last known position. Don't go back to the exact same spot he thinks you are. Spend a couple of minutes retreating deep into your own lines, take a breather, and reposition up to a new battlefront. Going to somewhere they don't expect you will usually pay you back way more than the time lost in moving across the map.

2. Support a BB. Some BBs push too early, some BBs never push at all, but when you see a BB who is pushing deep with an intelligently timed advance, supported by friendly cruisers, you want to support that BB, hard. Stop whatever you are doing, drive back and put yourself a couple of km in front of him, to spot enemy torps, and smoke up a emergency retreat if necessary. This position usually presents some good situational opportunities if any enemy ships push up to challenge. Obviously some DDs are better in this role than others, German and US lines especially good, but with adjustments to the exact positioning, the principle is general.

3. T-61 is a great DD. Probably the most fun, and the most comfortable, of low-tier DDs I've played. I know, she's a gold ship, but if you have the money you won't regret the purchase. 

Thank me later...

 

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My advice to DD player is very simple :

 

1. Play CV First

CV indeed, the best starting class for newbie. Its teach you strategy, and best of the best its teach you its weakness and limitation. People complaining about CV in surface ship should play CV and become good first.

 

Don't expect to be good DD player in few hundred battle without playing CV. 

 

2. Two major learning curve:

a) classic artilery BB and CA play

b) the asymetric CV and DD play

stick with one of the option above. If you play CA, you must play BB. If you play DD you need to learn CV. 

 

3. ACCEPT REALITY

Yes, DD is underpowered.... You play DD only for 1 reason 

"I am the man, CV is too easy"

"DD player is devoter of Khorne, we only seek the Thrill of the battle. Trying to win is only for noob"

" Weeeeeb of the north star "

 

4. The best way to win in DD is very simple, JUST ALIVE

 

 

5. Don't play DD below T8

- afraid of radar is only for noob

- real man fear CV rocker

- low tier wont teach you anything

- better become T10 noob than pro T3

- Halland, GET HALLAND

 

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I wholeheartly agree but I guess for most less veteran and casual DD Players there is always the question - how the hell suppose for me to do my fair share of damage dealing and get  the credits and the exp - those mentioned help the team help towards the victory help everyone else but they do not do the said DD anything

Until WG change to reward DD for doing all the DD thing there will always player who won't care - they see that CV can spawn planes and farm , they see Cruosers able to , they see BB constantly doing that from back there and what's it for DD 

So hot head they might be but as a DD main I cannot bring myself to blame them for that the game simply biased against the class in general and for many a DD Player its simply a case of trying not to break the economy and hell with all said and all else

When game now play at typical 15, 20KM range with CV , multiple 12KM radar they are effectively ranged out and you get nothing for just staying alive and doing all the so call support and DD thing, sorry those do not reward

DD players are in a fashion forced to go hot head else they stay alive and got bleeded dry and since really only CAP and damage dealing reward for real that is what they will do ; its not a sin we all do it just that back in old days BB Cruisers team up formation and push with the vanguard DD - Today well if ever they do you can call it almost a miracle

 

Edited by Mechfori
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5 minutes ago, Skarhabek said:

My advice to DD player is very simple :

 

1. Play CV First

2. Two major learning curve:

3. ACCEPT REALITY

4. The best way to win in DD is very simple, JUST ALIVE

5. Don't play DD below T8

 

LOL. …

5 - my V-25 humbly disagree so too my Derzki ; my IJN Torpedo Flotella and then some

4 - indeed

3 - does not mean its ok,  should voice it each and every occassion until WG change and balace for good

2 - not quite that simple but that's a start

1 - well when I start there is no CV in game for new players a hand on on all other class should be a mandatory training and not just for DD Players

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Great advice thank you Rina Pon.

While I dont do suicide runs like some do I think sometimes I forget some of the survival tips if I get on a bad run of games.

Ive taken a break and gone back to BBs for awhile as I found my DD games getting frustrating.

Also some advice is to use islands as cover when lit up by radar. Even if in rather vulnerable positions just getting behind that small nearby island can be enough to help waste the clock for the enemy radar. Then after the radar finishes scoot off back to your safe waters under concealment.

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My advice to new DD players :

 

  • know your role - inevitably sometime you end up on the strong flank, sometime on the weak one , you are DD , you are not the GUNS , so do not try to be one, if you had team that do not push or you end up on thee weak flank , your role will be Area Denial ( Domination ) / delay ( standard battle ) / scout and spot , ambush in Epic Center , if you are on the strong flank and just so happen that your team do actually push then you can pitch in , or else your role will be pitching in to drive the enemy away so you can cap, push etc etc , sometime you end up in the middle or had pretty much balanced flank both side and both team .. then its a matter of action and reaction, action not on your part but your teammates and that of your enemies, and you provide the reaction, why cause you are the fastest who can respond and re position ( most of the time but not always )
  • know your limit - face it al DD are specialist and being specialist also means it can be highly deficient in certain area and all DD suffer that and suffer in general many area of defensive need ( and not all of that are right, some are just grossly in-balance bake in to the game , say Radar ) learn to retreat and learn when not to do anything , go silent, go stealth , yes your teammate always keep asking you to go do that go do this but you are just one DD ... like it or not, there will be times you can practically do nothing and for a long duration of the game too , its just how the current game meta presents , patient, patient is a virtue all DD player could benefit from
  • Take your chance whenever it present .. you really do not had the firepower to overpower others, so if and when chance do prop up, made good use of it , an opening in and among the island to launch the torp, a window to shoot a salvo or two , a plane squad that flies away from you .. or enemy DD show up cause they are less cautious , anything , yes it will involve taking risk and you alone must decide if the result worth it ... learn the in and out of concealment, firing and smoke firing penalty of you and your foes
  • Made us of your team .. take note whose doing what and what's the enemy doing and to whom. Team BB is fire magnet and consequently they are also good at exposing enemy positions , use those info to plan your positioning , your guns are small but fast they synergize with fast guns from CL and CA , so come needed pair with them and work with them , your torp are mighty but slow to reload, so choose wisely when and where to shoot
  • Know the targets - prioritize your goal , is it capping an area or denying the enemy that same area ; or is it gunning down that enemy DD or forcing enemy Radar to get out of position ( and better still kill it )
  • Trust no one, trust not your own team's BB, not your own team's Cruisers, and certainly not your own team's CV and Radar , basically with todays meta and how player play, they simply had no idea what's mean by providing AA Cover, Close Support, Fire Cover, and they never prioritize high value high priority target like Radar Cruiser and instead concentrate on farming that big slow BB the other side or the enemy DD ( from planes )  despite the fact that that DD already well ranged out - and when and if they ever come to give support its almost always too little too late , a DD needing support will need it NOW, IMMEDIATE, and most of the time the team just cannot provide even if they want to cause the never ever formation and group up anymore
  • learn NOT to do the DD part .. yes learn to ignore the tactical need , learn to ignore the teams need and learn to forget about doing what a DD suppose to do .. all in the name of SURVIVAL .. you cannot do a thing if you are dead and today any of these are asking the DD to go into harms way ( and usually with no due support, and certainly no due reward ), with every measure put into the game to counter the DD and every defensive mean you had thinned down to basically irrelevant and useless

 

it might not be the most encouraging but as it is ; the Class is both discriminated and biased against by WG and too many are power crepted to the point of being just pure offering on the plate ( and that can be said for some old tech tree ships of other class too especially at low to mid tier ) and yet , yes, DD can be mighty important to a team and to a game .. yet they are not given their due measure to carry out theirs, they are not given their due rewards, and mostly the team simply almost always never give the due support the boats need and that which should be provided ...

Edited by Mechfori
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Thanks for the advice.

Currently, when I played DD on PvP battles, it just feels like this :

Spoiler

1561894252_hyouka1steditioncover.thumb.jpg.8ce87733c0835ee345f5f53e8a153d33.jpg

But, I think I'll try again. Especially after reading your advice above.

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12 hours ago, Rina_Pon said:

No matter how bad a DD player you are, your sorry behind is worth more to your team alive than dead. 

I can't stress this enough.

Even a threat of a DD is enough to stop an enemy flank from pushing. If I am in a BB and I know the enemy DD on my flank is dead, I am more willing to strap on my man-pants and push. If I am in a cruiser, I know I can play around with my concealment more and know I can drop off detection soon after I stop firing my guns.. If I am in a DD, I can cap freely and sail around knowing I won't get spotted by surprise. If I am in a CV, I know that is one less enemy DD I need to waste time trying to spot and attack.

It really irks me when I see DD players rushing in and dying just because they want to get in some damage.

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2 hours ago, Thyaliad said:

I can't stress this enough.

....

It really irks me when I see DD players rushing in and dying just because they want to get in some damage.

well it irks me too ; but we really cannot deny the fact that the game penalize them for doing all the right thing and reward them for doing all the wrong thing ... and damage dealing is somewhat in the middle ( and yes it rewards, not like spotting which at best reward that tiny teeny amount , or scouting screening which reward none ) so long the game only ever reward for major by damage deal, then players will drive to do that or else they go broke. They do not go in and do not try to get those damage dealing then they got nothing in return towards reward, they go do their damage dealing and then they are blamed and likely get killed for doing so but they got their reward and their credits .. go figure

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17 hours ago, Mechfori said:

I wholeheartly agree but I guess for most less veteran and casual DD Players there is always the question - how the hell suppose for me to do my fair share of damage dealing and get  the credits and the exp - those mentioned help the team help towards the victory help everyone else but they do not do the said DD anything

I see your point, because I remember feeling a similar frustration. The best advice I can give is play for the satisfaction of a job well done, not the financial reward. That frustration will only get you killed early - with little to show for it. It's almost never worth suiciding in a DD. Not from an XP perspective, not from a team advantage perspective.

As for personal reward, domination matches are easy. The exact point calculation is complex, I dont know the details,  but capping seems to have about 1500-2000 base XP up for grabs. So given that you are usually the only DD on your flank, that's 750-1000 base XP for just doing your job, enough to normally put you in the top half of your team. Damage to DDs is worth more than damage to other ships, so killing a DD is worth as much as killing a BB, more or less. Again, that's also your job. On a good game you should get a few torp hits on capital ships in addition, it doesn't take too much in damage output to put you at the top of the XP podium.

Normal games are harder, because your role, and your opportunities are less clearly defined at the start of the game. Pay close attention to what everyone does, take a conservative opening position, and wait to see where the game is going. You'll see the opportunities develop. Again, the longer you survive the more chances you'll have to increase your XP. As you become a better player, you get better at converting those opportunities into the big scores.

 

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I'm an all rounder player, meaning I played all ship types. 

When I played CV, sometimes I face palmed because a DD in my team don't know when to cap. Retreating from the front line and not get killed in the first 5 minutes is good and all, but not capturing the base when there's opportunity is stupid. 

Many times I yelled "DD please cap! Enemies are away from base A so you can cap it with easy. I'll provide fighter planes and you can smoke up if needed!" and then the DD in question didn't bother to cap and thus we lost the battle. 

Being too paranoid to cap is bad you know. 

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Tier 1 ~ 6 DD play, the experience tell them to rely on their torpedoes and smoke. When detected, they allowed to make mistake with their fault evasive maneuver. Then on T7 ~ T8, they shocked with the introducing of radar & how terrifying T8 CV - Rocket Bomber. The learning curve between lower & mid tier DD are very difference. Then comes T9~T10 games where everything you've learn in the beginning are totally difference. Smoke is useless & some time blocking the sight for your teammate, also simple evasive mistake will punish you to the abyss.

This is different with CA & BB. Any tier class, you play CA & BB the same way. CA always try to find a good spot for spamming shells & always try to protect their side. While BB always play stand far off and learn how to lead shoot from distance.

In my opinion, WG should introduce radar from lower Tier, so new DD player will get used to it. AND ... fix radar function that able to detect ship behind mountain !

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Personally I had no issue with DD economy even for a T10 without perma camou but really that is not the case for many new DD player coming into T6 and beyond .. especially when they keep matched against multiple CV Radar machine gun Cruisers and shoot gun secondaries 

What that distinguish DD as MissMeMiss had put it is the wild difference play and how to play between tiers but more to that between different tech tree and even between individual ships on the same tree .... AKA one need to be on a boat for quite a number of games to even get the hang of it for that boat and that boat alone ( and lack of any tolerance to error made this more important ) but on top you will find that next in line you need very likely a different play and play style. - No exampke of that is more prevalent than the IJN Gunboat from T7 to T10 

For new players this is extra hurdle which all other class do not suffer

I too agree the low tier training simply fail for DDs -at low tier the game simply encourage DD to gun and run ( try V-25 and thise German DD that had forward firing torp ) but this is totally unsuited once you had CV in the game and then Radar and then finding Cruiser that can practically out run you- which mean DD players need to unlearn theirs and then learn something new and all the time being suffering 

Still those are skill gap that's kind of discriminating to DD Players when all other class are not presented such but the core issue remains - DD are ranged out ; DD are not given their due consistent effective efficient mean to go offensive and damage dealing when all others are provided ; DD are not given their due defensive measure ( or put it more precise WG made sure each and every are countered without penalty to the opposing class ) 

So in the end its not hard to figure why new DD Player play how they play .. in a fashion they are forced to .. if they do not force forward they can do nothing and if they do they get killed .. we players are to be blamed for that too .. How many of us when playing BB Cruisers CV actually do provide the CLOSE support; the fire cover ; the AA but that is what a Vanguard need whether its a DD or not ! 

Let's just say this to the new DD Player - " Play something else ; anything , yes you want results you want fun you want not to be left in the dust well play something else ; anything but DD "

And that's from a DD main ; I love playing DD but sad fact is game at current state is biased and specified against DD ; any DD

Edited by Mechfori

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8 hours ago, Rina_Pon said:

 ...take a conservative opening position, and wait to see where the game is going. You'll see the opportunities develop. Again, the longer you survive the more chances you'll have to increase your XP

 

And that is exactly where the problem lies BB can actively go offensive or defensive logging their fair share of damage dealing ( and thus credit and exp ), Cruisers can, CV can but no if you are playing DD you are not allow that and not just so ; even if you are presented the chance you are by default not given that consistent effective and efficient mean to do yours when of course everybody else had

Its easy for us veteran to keep talking these talks but in the end that only work for us veterans cause we had acquire the skill the experience and the vision ( so to speak ) to see through that fog of war. New players and especially new DD players are too busy just staying alive and yet trying their damn hardest to be able to do something and often than not they simply are put into these no win situation courtesy both the game and how we player plays ( lack of any real immediate support )

I see no reason why not to advice new DD Player a simple one - do not play DD its not worth all those frustration -

 

Edited by Mechfori
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On 6/20/2020 at 7:57 AM, Rina_Pon said:

As for personal reward, domination matches are easy. The exact point calculation is complex, I dont know the details,  but capping seems to have about 1500-2000 base XP up for grabs. So given that you are usually the only DD on your flank, that's 750-1000 base XP for just doing your job, enough to normally put you in the top half of your team.

If I am not wrong capping functions as a score multiplier. So if you get 3 solo caps and hardly do any damage, you will get an average score at best.

But if you get get 1-2 caps and do some damage, you will get more exp than pure damage and no caps.

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1 hour ago, Thyaliad said:

If I am not wrong capping functions as a score multiplier. So if you get 3 solo caps and hardly do any damage, you will get an average score at best.

But if you get get 1-2 caps and do some damage, you will get more exp than pure damage and no caps.

I don't have pic, but once as a DD, I cap all three (Condition = MM T7~T9 ; use T8 IJN DD Kagero ; Line up = 6BB-5CA-1DD). My torps all missed and only inflict damage with main gun below 10k. I got 1st position with +2000pts.

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56 minutes ago, Thyaliad said:

If I am not wrong capping functions as a score multiplier. So if you get 3 solo caps and hardly do any damage, you will get an average score at best.

But if you get get 1-2 caps and do some damage, you will get more exp than pure damage and no caps.

Damage dealing still the majority of it all ... you can cap and spot all the game and still end up at best breaking even ( and not that even if at T10 ) but a scale of damage dealing always return some , despite my cry that DD not really given their due consistent effective and efficient mean to deal damage ( as all other class had been provided with ) I must say to new DD player that at anything mid tier and up , if you do want some return to the game , then you had to go do some damage dealing , yes spotting, capping do give you return but how many time in a game today especially now CV around that you can get decent return from spotting , and capping .. are you really sure you can always do solo cap and all 3 areas ( and sometime a game had only 2 Area to contest for )  its why we keep saying this game need PUSH by the team , read the word TEAM ... yes capping if done in quantity do yield return but do not count on it always the enemy will made sure of that usually.

And many forget in game mode domination , capping and early capping give the team advantage , there is good reason to actively contest for that and if at worst, deny enemy an early cap, any cap, and this is where most DD and new DD players are finding it very frustrating cause usually as seen a team of guns who are so content to just wait out , wait out, wait out , sit out sit out sit out, farm that enemy BB way over the other side and when they finally team push or realize they need to, its almost always too late , I cannot stress how many time I am in a game where my team got all the advantage , end up with way more ships than enemy and yet still end up a defeat, cause time run out and the points well points .. cause the whole team never bother to at least push to deny enemy cap, never bother to defend a capped area and will only really push for those and always too little too late , despite all the game I keep shouting to them to do that , this is very common today and my advice to a DD Player in such cases .. forget about trying to cap the team just are not in the mood to do it , best you can do is denying enemy a cap but sadly doing all these yield usually zero return despite the fact you might be doing the team a great service. Finding yourself in a DD in such a game you can practically forget about all these capping and spotting, just concentrate on doing more damage farming and prepare for a defeat ...

CAPPING  ....  require a certain set of condition and usually require some active support from the team and needing the TEAM UP FRONT, and up front is usually where the team do not want themselves today .. go figure .. in the end yes go capping if chance present it but only do it if you had the security to do it cause its unlikely that the tea can give you any form of CLOSE SSUPPORT, immediate fire cover , and even less likely help to cap, they always want others to fight the front , to create a superior tactical advantage there before they will move forward at all this is how it is today

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21 minutes ago, MissMeMiss said:

I don't have pic, but once as a DD, I cap all three (Condition = MM T7~T9 ; use T8 IJN DD Kagero ; Line up = 6BB-5CA-1DD). My torps all missed and only inflict damage with main gun below 10k. I got 1st position with +2000pts.

Weird, because I have gotten 3 solo caps before and only got about 1.2k base exp. No torp hits and only a few thousand gun damage. Didn't get a lot of spotting damage because the enemy was running away and my team was pursuing them anyway. Was your target the other DD? Any Defender medals? Maybe it depends on how long the caps stay capped.

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I wonder if having submarines in the near future will resolve all these problems? 

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14 minutes ago, XWind said:

I wonder if having submarines in the near future will resolve all these problems? 

likely will not , just worsen the meta as DD are driven with even more workload that are - non rewarding in most cases - and with great danger attached ; I shall re-iterate as of this current moment DD , are not given their due consistent, effective and efficient mean to go offensive and deal damage ( when every other class are provided for ) and DD are not given their due working defensive means ( when all other classes are provided for ) so long those remain the situation will not improve ..

And of course let's not start with the skewed reward system and so call game and team play that keep asking DD to perform this and that and with no reward being granted in return

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Completely remove set goals from Random Battles...no capping ..just kill the other fleet...search and destroy...or make it PUBG style of play...

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3 hours ago, XWind said:

I wonder if having submarines in the near future will resolve all these problems? 

Nah, in fact it is quite the opposite. Subs will just worsen the situation.

DDs are already a very overworked class with loads of responsibilities - adding ASW to the mix of the things they have to do is just making the class more influential than they already are now. Plus subs outspot DD, while DDs still have to go in near suicidal range to deal with subs. So DD survivability is going to be even harder with subs around.

I have been playing Submarine mode for a while now and it is a complete circus. What usually happens is the DDs get outspotted by subs and focus fired while they are unable to do anything about the subs spotting them. Once the DDs die the CLs will soon follow. After that it is just surface ships dying one by one while the subs duel each other, with the winner of the match usually being determined by which team's subs can take out the enemy subs.

Edited by Thyaliad
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Agree. Maybe change the playstyles for Random Battle is the way to go....

Edited by XWind
Grammatical mistakes

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Or set different goals for the RB...

Edited by XWind
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