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0.9.4 PTS Submarines and ASW discussion and theorycrafting

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G'day folks,

I've done a write up on reddit about Submarines/ASW, posting live link here so we can discuss here as well...

 

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In Naval Warfare, ASW means Anti Submarine Warfare, you may have ASW units or ships etc. but ASW itself does not mean it is a unit or ship

what does the word ASW mean here?

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Just now, tsuenwan said:

In Naval Warfare, ASW means Anti Submarine Warfare, you may have ASW units or ships etc. but ASW itself does not mean it is a unit or ship

what does the word ASW mean here?

The same thing

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Copying my comment from your other thread:

More modern DDs (high tiers) that have anti-sub mortars (like Squid mortars) or rockets (on Swedish DDs) should get long-ranged/very long-ranged ASW to ease off the burden. Like some form of controllable AoE to throw AS munitions at.

 

Other thoughts:

+ Again, more testing needed with a more "standard PvP" environment.

+ I do feel that WG might want to expand teams to 15 ships/team for this new ship type.

+ Sub control is fine.

+ Sub vs Sub is a thing, but very risky and likely won't happen frequently in "real" combat situations.

Edited by Paladinum
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hi,nice to meet you here, i havnt played submarine in the PT server, but there are still a question i have to ask:

wt is subs good at?  torping ships?  isnt that job been taken already? homing torps, on one hand, is a new element, on the other, however,  is pretty useless, other ships, unlike BB, are very ninja, and homing torps are not missiles

flanking forces?  not with that speed, even you get into a flanking position, there is little you can do, the range of your torps prevent you from doing that.

i really hope WG can make a real nice kind of new ships, rather than another useless grimick like UK CA.

 

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6 minutes ago, Paladinum said:

 

.....More modern DDs (high tiers) that have anti-sub mortars (like Squid mortars) or rockets (on Swedish DDs) should get long-ranged/very long-ranged ASW to ease off the burden. Like some form of controllable AoE to throw AS munitions at.

Actually, anti-sub mortar and rockets are not that modern, Acoustic homing torpedoes were used by US and German against Sub and Surface targets during WWII. magnetic field detection sensor was used apart from acoustic sensor.

One big different from WOWS, is WWII era sub are Diesel-Electric, they can not stay submerged for long time and maintain high speed. and semi-active acoustic homing torp did not appear until the late 50's

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On 4/19/2020 at 10:38 AM, tsuenwan said:

Actually, anti-sub mortar and rockets are not that modern, Acoustic homing torpedoes were used by US and German against Sub and Surface targets during WWII. magnetic field detection sensor was used apart from acoustic sensor.

One big different from WOWS, is WWII era sub are Diesel-Electric, they can not stay submerged for long time and maintain high speed. and semi-active acoustic homing torp did not appear until the late 50's

Effing deal with it.

236119627_dealwithWargaming.jpg.8e991c2f8324e52efbf6bba2ef6dcf93.jpg

Edited by Paladinum

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Nice write up, I'm liking the look of subs, they are much improved since the last test, and definitely look good enough to be introduced to their own game mode.

I do agree that there are some clear balance issues, mainly the DD to sub interaction.  DD's have a lot of roles, and have many counters, so adding a role that is clearly very challenging is going to make life even more difficult for DD's, and increase the skill gap of class with the widest skill gap in the game.  This isn't ideal, but it's also not an insurmountable problem.  As they iterate the dynamic in the next couple of patches we should hopefully get a bit closer to balance here.

I haven't been on the PTS, hence I just don't have the practical experience of the class yet, so I was interested to read your thoughts.  I like that subs are clearly being geared to be right up the front, because that's where they need to be to interact with the enemy DD's.  A sub that could sit behind the DD's and be effective would make them very difficult to counter.  WG need to be very careful in balancing their effective ranges because of this.  I like the depth play, the guided torps system, and of course the visuals are superb.

I think direct DC attacks on enemy subs is going to be difficult at the start of battles.  This only seems to be viable once play has broken down a little, because a DD that is hunting a sub seems to be constantly spotted, and that means it's going to be highly vulnerable to the subs friends.  A focus on balancing when the DD is spotted while chasing a sub is key to this dynamic I think. 

Your thoughts on plane spotting are interesting too.  Historically planes were a serious threat to subs, and I think this needs to be a thing in the game as well.   They should be able to depth charge subs, although that might be difficult to implement.  Perhaps make it so dive bombers can bomb subs and have an effect down to a pretty reasonable depth, much more than shell fire.  On a side note I used to work on P-3's and we'd fit 500lb dumb bombs purely for anti-sub suppression work, we did a whole testing regime on them, the idea being they were cheap options to attack a shallow sub, and when they dived we could track with sonobuoys and drop torps on them.  I think that although planes during the war were fitted with depth charges, standard HE bombs would be almost as effective considering most plane attacks were made on shallow or surfaced subs.  No sonobuoys back then!  With regard to spotting, planes should be able to spot subs down to a medium depth, this makes sense as you can see deeper into the water from the air than from a ship.

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Historically, The Pomes had also developed underwater noise generation device to jam German acoustic torpedo since 1943.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxer

 MK24 acoustic homing mine/torpedo was also developed in 1943.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_24_mine

Aircraft-deploy Sonobuoy array were also operational in the early 1940s

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonobuoy

 

Edited by tsuenwan

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2 hours ago, Paladinum said:

More modern DDs (high tiers) that have anti-sub mortars (like Squid mortars) or rockets (on Swedish DDs) should get long-ranged/very long-ranged ASW to ease off the burden. Like some form of controllable AoE to throw AS munitions at.

Other thoughts:

+ Again, more testing needed with a more "standard PvP" environment.

+ I do feel that WG might want to expand teams to 15 ships/team for this new ship type.

+ Sub control is fine.

+ Sub vs Sub is a thing, but very risky and likely won't happen frequently in "real" combat situations.

Yeah that was my thinking... Thing is that I think it may be something needed for all sub tiers...

Team expansion - possibly but you end up mucking up MM to a degree then. You'll probably find the client has some sort of limit or peoples computers do.

Sub v Sub isn't really risky atm, it's literally just two old-timers constantly circling each other...

 

2 hours ago, sparkytroll said:

hi,nice to meet you here, i havnt played submarine in the PT server, but there are still a question i have to ask:

wt is subs good at?  torping ships?  isnt that job been taken already? homing torps, on one hand, is a new element, on the other, however,  is pretty useless, other ships, unlike BB, are very ninja, and homing torps are not missiles

flanking forces?  not with that speed, even you get into a flanking position, there is little you can do, the range of your torps prevent you from doing that.

i really hope WG can make a real nice kind of new ships, rather than another useless grimick like UK CA.

Hey mate, I'll try answer as best I can.

Subs are good at being stealthy and torpedoing targets. In this case they have semi-guided torpedoes with a skill-shot ping feature. This 'ping' makes the torpedoes semi-guided, otherwise they function like any other torps, check out YouTube for how it works if you want to see it in action. You are correct in your assessment though, they are theoretically most effective in a flanking position. The USN Cachalot has a speed boost and it is possible to get into a flanking position if you aren't spotted. You are right though, the torpedo that this would work with would have longer range.

 

57 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

Nice write up, I'm liking the look of subs, they are much improved since the last test, and definitely look good enough to be introduced to their own game mode.

I do agree that there are some clear balance issues, mainly the DD to sub interaction.  DD's have a lot of roles, and have many counters, so adding a role that is clearly very challenging is going to make life even more difficult for DD's, and increase the skill gap of class with the widest skill gap in the game.  This isn't ideal, but it's also not an insurmountable problem.  As they iterate the dynamic in the next couple of patches we should hopefully get a bit closer to balance here.

I haven't been on the PTS, hence I just don't have the practical experience of the class yet, so I was interested to read your thoughts.  I like that subs are clearly being geared to be right up the front, because that's where they need to be to interact with the enemy DD's.  A sub that could sit behind the DD's and be effective would make them very difficult to counter.  WG need to be very careful in balancing their effective ranges because of this.  I like the depth play, the guided torps system, and of course the visuals are superb.

I think direct DC attacks on enemy subs is going to be difficult at the start of battles.  This only seems to be viable once play has broken down a little, because a DD that is hunting a sub seems to be constantly spotted, and that means it's going to be highly vulnerable to the subs friends.  A focus on balancing when the DD is spotted while chasing a sub is key to this dynamic I think. 

Your thoughts on plane spotting are interesting too.  Historically planes were a serious threat to subs, and I think this needs to be a thing in the game as well.   They should be able to depth charge subs, although that might be difficult to implement.  Perhaps make it so dive bombers can bomb subs and have an effect down to a pretty reasonable depth, much more than shell fire.  On a side note I used to work on P-3's and we'd fit 500lb dumb bombs purely for anti-sub suppression work, we did a whole testing regime on them, the idea being they were cheap options to attack a shallow sub, and when they dived we could track with sonobuoys and drop torps on them.  I think that although planes during the war were fitted with depth charges, standard HE bombs would be almost as effective considering most plane attacks were made on shallow or surfaced subs.  No sonobuoys back then!  With regard to spotting, planes should be able to spot subs down to a medium depth, this makes sense as you can see deeper into the water from the air than from a ship.

Honestly the biggest thing about the Subs atm is their primary counter is actually other Subs. The other Subs struggle to effectively deal damage and Sub v Sub rams were common. The only other attack option are DCs. DCs you have to be within like 1km to deal damage. That simply isn't effective and in a normal battle setting will be almost impossible to get to happen. To get a DC opportunity you basically have to run the sub down, even with their 20knots and you at 40, you end up around their spawn area if you are doing it from a cap edge to cap edge type starting distance.

I haven't done enough testing with CVs tbh, but even with DBs, your dispersion is often way bigger than the Subs themselves, even if the Sub is on the surface. The Subs are very small, like 1/2 a small DD at full surface level.

23 minutes ago, tsuenwan said:

Historically, The Pomes had also developed underwater noise generation device to jam German acoustic torpedo since 1943.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxer

 MK24 acoustic homing mine/torpedo was also developed in 1943.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_24_mine

Aircraft-deploy Sonobuoy array were also operational in the early 1940s

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonobuoy

 

Yeah they have elements of this in the gameplay but they definitely have options as far as 'gimmicks' later on. At the moment the three different subs differentiate themselves enough with their consumables and torpedo armaments.

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47 minutes ago, S4pp3R said:

Honestly the biggest thing about the Subs atm is their primary counter is actually other Subs. The other Subs struggle to effectively deal damage and Sub v Sub rams were common. The only other attack option are DCs. DCs you have to be within like 1km to deal damage. That simply isn't effective and in a normal battle setting will be almost impossible to get to happen. To get a DC opportunity you basically have to run the sub down, even with their 20knots and you at 40, you end up around their spawn area if you are doing it from a cap edge to cap edge type starting distance.

I haven't done enough testing with CVs tbh, but even with DBs, your dispersion is often way bigger than the Subs themselves, even if the Sub is on the surface. The Subs are very small, like 1/2 a small DD at full surface level.

It would be nice at the higher tiers where ranges are a bit more spread, to get further weapons to attack subs.  I would suggest high tier DD's could get anti-sub homing torpedoes.  There are ships already in the game that had them fitted.  This wouldn't be hard to implement, and would enable attacks from longer ranges.  Air dropped homing torpedoes saw a fair bit of use during the war as well (apparently air dropped homing torps sank 37 U-boats in the latter half of the war).  All of this sounds quite fun for all involved as well.

It's definitely high tiers where having to get on top of a sub to depth charge it is going to be near impossible in most situations.  This is where other weapons may be better.

With the current setup, it seems like well played subs are going to be almost impossible to kill.

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I found during PTS a sub could just surface when depth charges were being dropped for zero damage.  Of course you can then fire and torp them as a surface vessel.  I did this to a DD, really close and his guns couldn't elevate downwards enough to shoot me.

Also as a DD depth charges don't seem to have any friendly fire.  Didn't test enough but on one occasion with two subs dancing around each other trying to torp I ran depth charges over both of them and just got an enemy kill and our sub took no damage.

When stationary and dropping depth charges you also take no damage.  Normally you would need to be moving forward to avoid your own hull taking damage, the AoE still can damage surface ships.  Which brings me back to the point of them doing zero damage to surfaced subs.

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a delay from surface to dive would fix the bobbing issue, an heck it would be nice to have the bells and "alarm" sound for the uboats, and or different for other nations 😛

 

I managed to drop bombs and rockets on semi surfaced u boats and kill them with ease, and I hate cv's and don't play them often, but wanted to test how the went vs the drones of death.

 

When I first got pinged as a destroyer via a uboat, it gave me a warning and pop up msg about what it was all about, a nice sounding sonar ping or something would be fantastic to let those no that a uboat has a mark on them. so there is a system in place to do that with ease by the looks of things

 

need a button for Periscope depth, I think the fact that perhaps there is no real Periscope death atm eg counts as surfaced is perhaps due to the tier of the uboats?. I know early sub/uboats did not have Periscopes or had a very shallow depth of use with them,

 

Perhaps for spotting later on when Periscope depth can be achieved, spotting can be done in a cone type pattern to where the periscope is spotting, eg no free view and no lighting up of boats perhaps silhouette on map like in bad weather and also periscopes could be damaged and or destroyed to counter that type of play style, much like a turret on a ship. eg at the depth you might not take much damage from shells, but your coning tower stuff might get smashed up so deck gun periscope etc.

 

its plenty of fun, and heck its the first time WG have added another new class to the game for years and years and years. so for many, the sky is falling, for others, its an exciting time!

 

deck guns and aa! they had them! let us use them 🙂

 

 

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23 hours ago, Paladinum said:

236119627_dealwithWargaming.jpg.8e991c2f8324e52efbf6bba2ef6dcf93.jpg

 

EOaS3SkUUAMgphL.jpg

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1 hour ago, The_Hess said:

a delay from surface to dive would fix the bobbing issue, an heck it would be nice to have the bells and "alarm" sound for the uboats, and or different for other nations 😛

 

I managed to drop bombs and rockets on semi surfaced u boats and kill them with ease, and I hate cv's and don't play them often, but wanted to test how the went vs the drones of death.

 

When I first got pinged as a destroyer via a uboat, it gave me a warning and pop up msg about what it was all about, a nice sounding sonar ping or something would be fantastic to let those no that a uboat has a mark on them. so there is a system in place to do that with ease by the looks of things

 

need a button for Periscope depth, I think the fact that perhaps there is no real Periscope death atm eg counts as surfaced is perhaps due to the tier of the uboats?. I know early sub/uboats did not have Periscopes or had a very shallow depth of use with them,

 

Perhaps for spotting later on when Periscope depth can be achieved, spotting can be done in a cone type pattern to where the periscope is spotting, eg no free view and no lighting up of boats perhaps silhouette on map like in bad weather and also periscopes could be damaged and or destroyed to counter that type of play style, much like a turret on a ship. eg at the depth you might not take much damage from shells, but your coning tower stuff might get smashed up so deck gun periscope etc.

 

its plenty of fun, and heck its the first time WG have added another new class to the game for years and years and years. so for many, the sky is falling, for others, its an exciting time!

 

deck guns and aa! they had them! let us use them 🙂

 

 

Good post!

I tried CVs against subs a few times, couldn't do much so gave up and went after other ships. I didn't push it as far as testing, most subs stay submerged.

TBH more than anything I'd love to get two proper teams of like 10-12 people and see how a real game goes without yoloing.

Then I'd take those people and run matchups of class v class for subs and test everything.

I hate to say this but I honestly don't think any of the above has been done by WG 😢

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CV with smoke screen aircraft when ?. Let's be real here sub if not handle properly, will surely destroy the game, at least with CV, you can still attack the aircraft and the aircraft carrier itself, but with submarine, if you are an battleship, you are dead for sure 
also another thing, why do i had a feeling that decision to remove the premium consumable might actually mean for the Anti submarine warfare and not just like the simple reason like WG present us with  

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How to avoid sub hunt by DD 101 :

1. Sail into that DD head on at detection depth

2. Pops up in front of him 1.5 km.

3. Point-blank torpedo him

4. Crash dive XD 

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1 minute ago, pang_0320 said:

 

How to avoid sub hunt by DD 101 :

1. Sail into that DD head on at detection depth

2. Pops up in front of him 1.5 km.

3. Point-blank torpedo him

4. Crash dive XD 

* 3. Ram DD

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6 minutes ago, pang_0320 said:

 

How to avoid sub hunt by DD 101 :

1. Sail into that DD head on at detection depth

2. Pops up in front of him 1.5 km.

3. Point-blank torpedo him

4. Crash dive XD 

It seems like a reasonable tactic... :Smile_hiding:

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41 minutes ago, S4pp3R said:

* 3. Ram DD

Though in the Scenario "Terror of the Deep", SS always lose to DD when ramming. DD just lose a few HP.

But that was 2 years ago. :fish_book:

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2 minutes ago, S0und_Theif said:

Though in the Scenario "Terror of the Deep", SS always lose to DD when ramming. DD just lose a few HP.

But that was 2 years ago. :fish_book:

Watch my T61 vid...

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4 hours ago, TakemoriKohoto said:

CV with smoke screen aircraft when ?. Let's be real here sub if not handle properly, will surely destroy the game, at least with CV, you can still attack the aircraft and the aircraft carrier itself, but with submarine, if you are an battleship, you are dead for sure 
also another thing, why do i had a feeling that decision to remove the premium consumable might actually mean for the Anti submarine warfare and not just like the simple reason like WG present us with  

From what I heard subs caused really really big problems when they were introduced in NavyField.

WG has to tread really, really carefully. WoWs waa designed from the start with 4 ship classes in mind. Trying to shoehorn a fifth class into the game without proper implementation could be a death sentence.

1 hour ago, pang_0320 said:

 

How to avoid sub hunt by DD 101 :

1. Sail into that DD head on at detection depth

2. Pops up in front of him 1.5 km.

3. Point-blank torpedo him

4. Crash dive XD 

I was doing that in the Halloween submarine mode haha.

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