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S4pp3R

One-Off - HMAS Perth ASW

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G'day Folks,

0.9.4 PTS has Submarines...

So what did I do? I took Perth out for a spin for my first time...

LOL!

Some initial notes in the video about my experience, I also do a fair bit of work with Depth Charges and shooting at Subs (even while submerged). So it's a pretty good spin to get an idea of what it's like.

As usual, reddit post underneath YouTube if you want to engage with the salt-miners.

 

 

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Interesting.

And yes, I love Perth too.

So, note;

Hydro can detect subs now?

Subs can apparently fire dummy torps at any depth, but will not hit surface targets if fired underwater if not locked.

CLs do not have the same... hydrophone ability DDs have?

Subs can only cap and contest when surfaced. Nice

Did you actually manage to hit the subs with your guns?

Honestly, I still have trouble with this idea. Yes, subs can be hit by gunfire above 6m, but they seem to dive so quickly that even if you do catch one at that level, by the time you aim, fire, and your shots reach it, most half awake captains would have dived .In a way, this makes them even more immune to attack than CVs.

And since subs can stay underwater indefinitely, I have no idea how, if a CA and a sub were the only ships left in the match, and the sub's team was winning on points and the only way for CA team to win is by sinking enemy ships, what chance does the CA have? He could sit on top of that sucker until time out and sub would just be :Smile_trollface:. Actually, lets change CA for CV, unless CVs have depth charges, same problem.

Of course, you can argue that a CA Vs a DD would have little chance either if the DD decided to run. But it still feels like the CA has a chance. A DD has to work for it, has to run. A CV also has to work for it, running. And even then both are vulnerable to that last second blind fire. Or running into the map border.

Seems too easy for the sub to just dive and sit there, confident that if no ships with depth charges are left, he's  safe to let the clock run down.

Anyway, subs seem more balanced than last iteration. But I'm still not overjoyed at the idea of another element being introduced into the game. At least subs can hunt other subs. Which you'll need when the sole DD on your team gets destroyed because he got within 12 km of a AL Neveski and focus fired.

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2 hours ago, Grygus_Triss said:

Interesting.

And yes, I love Perth too.

So, note;

Hydro can detect subs now?

Subs can apparently fire dummy torps at any depth, but will not hit surface targets if fired underwater if not locked.

CLs do not have the same... hydrophone ability DDs have?

Subs can only cap and contest when surfaced. Nice

Did you actually manage to hit the subs with your guns?

Honestly, I still have trouble with this idea. Yes, subs can be hit by gunfire above 6m, but they seem to dive so quickly that even if you do catch one at that level, by the time you aim, fire, and your shots reach it, most half awake captains would have dived .In a way, this makes them even more immune to attack than CVs.

And since subs can stay underwater indefinitely, I have no idea how, if a CA and a sub were the only ships left in the match, and the sub's team was winning on points and the only way for CA team to win is by sinking enemy ships, what chance does the CA have? He could sit on top of that sucker until time out and sub would just be :Smile_trollface:. Actually, lets change CA for CV, unless CVs have depth charges, same problem.

Of course, you can argue that a CA Vs a DD would have little chance either if the DD decided to run. But it still feels like the CA has a chance. A DD has to work for it, has to run. A CV also has to work for it, running. And even then both are vulnerable to that last second blind fire. Or running into the map border.

Seems too easy for the sub to just dive and sit there, confident that if no ships with depth charges are left, he's  safe to let the clock run down.

Anyway, subs seem more balanced than last iteration. But I'm still not overjoyed at the idea of another element being introduced into the game. At least subs can hunt other subs. Which you'll need when the sole DD on your team gets destroyed because he got within 12 km of a AL Neveski and focus fired.

Yeah poor ol' Perth has slowly been nerfed by mechanics changes over the years but is still a beast.

Hydro on subs - yes. U-69 (best number ever) has hydro as a sub. USN one has spoed beest, SN one has heal

Didn't manage to hit them in that game. Hitting Subs with guns is rare and usually only happens if they make a mistake or you jump them. 

Yeah I'm still working out bits and pieces. I don't have problems with the idea of subs strangely enough. But I don't want it rushed and I honestly need them to do them right which probably won't happen.

At the moment the thing about a sub in the game vs something else is a bit like any other ship that's stealthy and can escape, the primary issue being that it's another type of DD class that's even harder to hit.

I 100% think that subs will be a controversial addition to the game but to be honest without playing more and more I can't honestly say whether they are broken or not.

My initial thoughts are no, they aren't. But then I think but they're too hard to hit, but then a well played DD is much the same.

At the moment they're an annoying ship class to vs that's only really a pain for static or sluggish ships, otherwise a minor nuisance at best.

Once people get much better with them, that may change. We'll have to see what the CC's can do, if you ask me right now; Smolensk is worse for the game than Subs.

NB: I don't particularly enjoy playing DDs and Subs are similar is playstyle to a point.

Edited by S4pp3R
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I've gone through quite a few games on PTS with my Perth and DD and IMHO ASW really become a chore instead of fun for DD/CL player , first off the depth charge range is simply too short you had to literally on top of enemy sub to do anything while they can torp you from stealth ( and ping for homing ) this create a situation that's one sided by all mean and also Depth Charge is like long range AA , its an area of damage effected and also it cannot be targeted , too RNG ... its the same as AA they can target you and you cannot target them ( and hope RNG work ) .. and its way shorter in range , if sub can attack from range , then WG should introduce ASW counter measure that can fire from range ( ASW Mortar , Rockets , they are in actual use at the said time period , though few actually got the range )

In the end its opportunity cost at play ; when as a CL or DD you go to ASW, not only are you putting yourself in danger of the homing torpedo ( and at the closing short range its pretty hard to dodge if your position is not really bow on ), and yet even when on top your depth charge still do not guarantee you consistent damage or a kill , again too much RNG so that in the end must one ask, why do ASW at all when I can go hunt enemy surface ships , I can target them and do consistent damage ( pending what my skill allows ) and I had likely better chance of doing more damage , less danger of being torp by a HOMING torpedo, I had more liberty in play and better reward in play  and I had control

ASW simply re-cast those same old issue DD had , spotting, screening, scouting, capping, area denial, smoking etc etc  .. and all the thing light force asked to do, which always put the said ship in danger without duly rewarding the effort put in to render the service .. and so far I do not find any fun in playing a CL or DD doing ASW, its all about trying to catch up on a small target than try to get within that Depth Charge effect zone ( which require good maneuverability ) .. its a very time consuming task and at the same time you are likely targeted by enemy subs and surface ships alike and for light force , putting oneself ( as far as light force goes ) into the light is almost suicide by default. So far Sub had become something like planes from CV .. annoying attack you cannot actually counter target, you can only hope to damage it RNG manner and only CL/DD can do that and only within a range of what .. 1KM .. no thank you I am not going to put myself into that trouble to do it so when I had to ASW / AA so that the CA, CB, and BB can enjoy free time farming .. I will go do my own farming instead 

 

a few Q will remain .. if its going into Random, how do team vision shared among the team , can sub spot for the team or is it that sub can only share vision ( and had the team share vision with the sub ) only when surfaced ; if its a class of ship , that can target, and play against other class of ship at range ( in fact not just targeting but had the torp homing in ) but other class of ship either had no way to even deal with it ( BB, CA, CB, CV ) or even if they do they cannot target it, cannot range attack .. well I see a problem here .. its like CV rework again WG is introducing a new class of ship that present a one sided approach to the introduction

 

Edited by Mechfori
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4 hours ago, Mechfori said:

Blurb

Yeah I've played a chunk now... And I agree with you mostly...

IMO ASW is only a chore because it's about the only time you can attack the Submarine. I think they need to swing the balance back towards Subs being on the surface more and only diving when they need to. It honestly wouldn't surprise me if they reduce the amount of energy available to them. Another solution may be to require resurfacing to recharge as opposed to 1/4. The issue with that however is that the moment you surface you're dead.

ASW itself I don't mind, the proximity requirement is a bit much, I agree. But even if you say, double the explosion radius of the DCs, you still have to be around 2km from the sub, so that's still a risk. TBH they need to have DC launchers of some kind with maybe a 4-5km range? I only just came up with that, but that's one solution IMO.

Planes spotting subs needs to be a thing, or a limited type thing. But then again that should be the case across the game.

DCs are probably going to need to be on every class, or at least every class except BB/CVs. CAs IMO will need them.

I dunno, atm I'm kinda liking the idea of DC launchers as a stand-off solution. You are basically then creating an artificial buffer between your ships and subs, meaning more chance to avoid torps or such things. Maybe make DC launchers a DD-only thing, or DD/CL only?

Edited by S4pp3R

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The current Sub mode in PTS doesn't simulate the actual environment in your normal everyday Random Battles. Barely any BB, full of DDs, everyone seems to enjoy rushing B, etc.

 

2 hours ago, S4pp3R said:

ASW itself I don't mind, the proximity requirement is a bit much, I agree. But even if you say, double the explosion radius of the DCs, you still have to be around 2km from the sub, so that's still a risk. TBH they need to have DC launchers of some kind with maybe a 4-5km range? I only just came up with that, but that's one solution IMO.

More modern DDs (high tiers) that have anti-sub mortars (like Squid mortars) or rockets (on Swedish DDs) should get long-ranged/very long-ranged ASW to ease off the burden.

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