Jump to content
You need to play a total of 10 battles to post in this section.
kongman

get rid of manual dropping of torps on planes

166 comments in this topic

Recommended Posts

Beta Tester
545 posts
2,381 battles

this is ruining the game play for alof of people , you can drops torps almost on top of any ship with a guarantee of alot of hits or sinking a ship , you should be able to adjust to aviod torps , but when someone drops them point blank and there is nothing you can do , it killing game play . adjusting the angle you can drop  your torps is fine . i get that ..........but manual dropped torp is an exploit alot of players are using , plus the fact torps arm almost instantly , is a bit of a joke     

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
1,063 posts
509 battles

By removing the manual dropping of torpedoes you are removing the only skill required by experienced cv captains to guarantee a hit on any ship. It will also guarantee any ship to dodge all the dropped torpedoes by the ai pilots

Edited by Halken_Sky

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
2,046 posts
277 battles

And here, we see a species of a sailor called muchrage hemadmuch who keeps getting sunk by Torpedo Squadron.  it's trying its best to survive in its habitat called the sea by evading torpedoes but it gets sunk no matter how he evades them. 

 

 

Edited by Saito_Himea

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
172 posts
58 battles

Following that logic, "barrage" and "repair" abilities of CAs and BBs should also be removed. Better still, make all the ships spherical, floating in vacuum, no islands, exactly the same stats scaled evenly with tier.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
146 posts
349 battles

this is ruining the game play for alof of people , you can drops torps almost on top of any ship with a guarantee of alot of hits or sinking a ship , you should be able to adjust to aviod torps , but when someone drops them point blank and there is nothing you can do , it killing game play . adjusting the angle you can drop  your torps is fine . i get that ..........but manual dropped torp is an exploit alot of players are using , plus the fact torps arm almost instantly , is a bit of a joke     

 

You should be trying to avoid them before they even get to that range in the first place. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moderator
4,163 posts
1,874 battles

Manual dropping is a genuine problem, since it's entirely possible for a battleship captain to do everything right and still take upwards of five-six torpedo hits from a skilled CV captain. It's why we have a bunch of threads discussing how to balance the CV player's primary offensive capability against the possibility of avoiding/evading it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
146 posts
349 battles

Another thing is that this game is NOT World Of Tanks. Where in World of Tanks Instant Reaction time can save your life, in World of Warships you need to look forward into the future on what is going to happen and react according to what you think is going to happen. You can see torpedo squadrons coming miles away, and while there is no guarantee that you won't take any damage the best you can do is act ahead and minimize the damage you take. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
2,040 posts
1,326 battles

We could balance it by increasing the damage Torpedo Bombers take when they get close in for a manual drop.

That way CV captains have to think of whether do a less accurate but safer auto drop at distance, or close in for more accurate and powerful salvo at the cost of his own squadrons.

It's realistic and logical :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
146 posts
349 battles

We could balance it by increasing the damage Torpedo Bombers take when they get close in for a manual drop.

That way CV captains have to think of whether do a less accurate but safer auto drop at distance, or close in for more accurate and powerful salvo at the cost of his own squadrons.

It's realistic and logical :P

 

 

 

 

OR/AND

If it really is that much of a problem 

Extend the range to which you can do a manual drop. 

I.E. you cannot manually drop your torpedoes within x distance from target. 

Edited by MARVinis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[SGC]
Super Tester
1,459 posts
6,814 battles

I feel we missed out the part on how TBs drop their payload.

I'd always thought they line up to their target just above waterline in a flat trajectory and approach it that way.

 

Currently it feels as if the TBs dive and drop their torpedoes 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
1,063 posts
509 battles

There is a activation distance for the torp to activate before it explodes on contact, there is also a set distance for the plane to go low before setting lose the payloads.

If you can't see this animations you are probably playing on a low setting or are lagging due to high ping.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moderator
4,163 posts
1,874 battles

I feel we missed out the part on how TBs drop their payload.

I'd always thought they line up to their target just above waterline in a flat trajectory and approach it that way.

 

Currently it feels as if the TBs dive and drop their torpedoes 

 

Yeah. And historically, this made TBs very, very vulnerable to enemy fire. TB losses were much higher than dive bomber losses for this exact reason.

 

Ever played using a Essex and try topping another Essex or Yamato? If you haven't please don't suggest increasing plane damage taken

 

And how many torpedo bombers does your Essex carry?

 

See, the problem here is that CVs can do disproportionate damage with manual, unavoidable torpedo drops with their torpedo squadrons. You're exchanging six to ten bombers for one battleship kill, and that's assuming heavy AA on the other team. In exchange, the battleship is now missing half to 3/4 (or even more) of his health, with his repair ability maybe healing up to a third of the damage you dealt. That battleship still has to face conventional gunfire from battleships/cruisers on your team as their primary role, while your CV is, generally speaking, not facing that same issue unless someone on your team really dropped the ball.

 

While I know this is how it worked historically, it does not make for a very good experience for one of the four available classes (and is hence, not a very good game design). We're not proposing to remove manual drops altogether - that would neuter CVs completely. But there HAS to be a look at the risk/reward payout for CV players because right now, it's weighted really heavily towards manual torpedo bombing.

Edited by Syanda

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
35 posts
2,400 battles

Well, CV take 11 Sec to take off 1 squad then fly to target to torpedo them then return ,this almost 4-6 mins for me when i play. {CV can't do DMG as much as other ships If we remove manual drop then BB CA or DD can avoid it. then can do few DMG} .<== Not a good idea. :sceptic:

 

Edited by checkoonrat2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
18 posts
502 battles

I'm totally not agree with removing manual dropping. It's only way for cv caps to use their experience to estimate next move and intercept it.

As you says "you can drops torps almost on top of any ship with a guarantee of alot of hits or sinking a ship" which totally false.

  1. Torps will not be armed and do any damage if they're dropped too close to target ship so it's not like we're dropping that close.
  2. Some BB Caps complain that TB drop torps at last 500 meter range. I advise that targeted ship, especially for CA, BB, should deploy their scout as it could detect torp direction much sooner and counteract. As for BBs, it might be hard to avoid every hits but at least you could minimize damage taken.
  3. In case you expect to avoid torp clean and unscratched while your alone, it won't be fair for CV too no matter the means you present. If you need stronger AA, why don't stick together in formation? If you need further torp detection, just deploy scout. if you want to dodge torps, begin your countermeasure as soon as you see TBs heading your ways  'before' TB droping torps.

 

Well, I don't think of manual drop is the problem.

 

#Text color changed, Thanks for warning..

Edited by PrototypeAlphaX

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moderator
4,163 posts
1,874 battles

I'm totally not agree with removing manual dropping. It's only way for cv caps to use their experience to estimate next move and intercept it.

As you says "you can drops torps almost on top of any ship with a guarantee of alot of hits or sinking a ship" which totally false.

  1. Torps will not be armed and do any damage if they're dropped too close to target ship so it's not like we're dropping that close.
  2. Some BB Caps complain that TB drop torps at last 500 meter range. I advise that targeted ship, especially for CA, BB, should deploy their scout as it could detect torp direction much sooner and counteract. As for BBs, it might be hard to avoid every hits but at least you could minimize damage taken.
  3. In case you expect to avoid torp clean and unscratched while your alone, it won't be fair for CV too no matter the means you present. If you need stronger AA, why don't stick together in formation? If you need further torp detection, just deploy scout. if you want to dodge torps, begin your countermeasure as soon as you see TBs heading your ways  'before' TB droping torps.

 

Well, I don't think of manual drop is the problem.

 

 

1. Torps are still able to be dropped at a distance where battleships (and some cruisers) literally cannot avoid them.

2&3. This is the crux of the issue. Most battleship captains can take evasive maneuvers the moment torpedo bombers show up on the minimap, ~7-8km out. However, squadrons are a hell lot more maneuverable than battleships and are able to pick their attack angles to compensate for the evasion. Yeah, sure, they're going to suffer plane loss (or at worst, squadron losses), but squadrons are replaceable (yes, I know it's to a certain extent, but latter tier carriers carry quite a few replacements), and in exchange, they're capable of doing devastating damage to battleships/cruisers. And then this runs into the issue I highlighted earlier. CV captains are able to trade off considerably less risk and get considerably higher rewards than any other ship in the game, given that they're not risking their ship at all in these attacks.

 

Yes, its possible for a CV to see its entire armament depopulated. I'm not disputing that. But unless you're stupidly flying your planes about, that's going to be inexchange of doing incredible damage to the opposing team's conventional ships, leaving your own conventional team free to exploit that. Given how wonky MM is with regards to carriers at the moment, this is a pretty significant issue. But even with matched carriers on both teams, we run into an issue where the entire game revolves around carrier gameplay, with each carrier seeking to wreck as much of the enemy fleet as possible and the individual fleets themselves having the main priority of avoiding enemy carriers and the secondary priority of killing each other. That skews the game design towards the carrier classes, as opposed to balanced out among all four classes in the game.

 

P.S. Don't use red text. It's reserved for moderation purposes.

Edited by Syanda

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Alpha Tester
1,063 posts
509 battles

 

My essex have a capacity of 90 air crafts out of these 90, i have 2 squadrons of 6 with 23 extra in bay, in most normal fights with experience players i can run completely out of bombers as they are CLEVER ENOUGH to group the battleship group together with a few escort cruisers.

 

Not to mention like checkoonrat2 said each squadron takes 11 seconds to takeoff, more than 1-2 mins to fly to the target another 1-3 mins to fly back, 35 seconds each to resupply and another 11 seconds to take off.

 

To add these together:

 

2 fighter squads + 2 torp bomber squads + 1 Dive bomber squad

 

Time taken to take off

11 seconds x 5 = 55 seconds

 

Flight time to target

1-3 mins 

 

Flight time back from target

1-3 mins

 

Resupply time 

35 seconds (im giving you the doubt if all squadrons land at exactly the same time which isn't what I experience in the 200+ games as a CV player)

 

Time taken to take off

11 seconds x 5 = 55 seconds

 

Total time taken for one target

6-8 mins

 

Total game time for a round

20 mins(oh wait now you see)

 

These times does not include squadrons lost and as the cv captain you got to reorganize the times, you can say move your cv closer to the front lines so the planes take a lesser time to travel. Yes you can do that but at high tiers people are clever enough to avoid the range of enemy ships.

Edited by Halken_Sky

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
18 posts
502 battles

See, the problem here is that CVs can do disproportionate damage with manual, unavoidable torpedo drops with their torpedo squadrons. You're exchanging six to ten bombers for one battleship kill, and that's assuming heavy AA on the other team. In exchange, the battleship is now missing half to 3/4 (or even more) of his health, with his repair ability maybe healing up to a third of the damage you dealt. That battleship still has to face conventional gunfire from battleships/cruisers on your team as their primary role, while your CV is, generally speaking, not facing that same issue unless someone on your team really dropped the ball.

 

While I know this is how it worked historically, it does not make for a very good experience for one of the four available classes (and is hence, not a very good game design). We're not proposing to remove manual drops altogether - that would neuter CVs completely. But there HAS to be a look at the risk/reward payout for CV players because right now, it's weighted really heavily towards manual torpedo bombing.

 

If you propose 'historical based gameplay' just like that.... you must admitted that it might takes hours to just score a single hit for all type of ship which is impossible in game environment. The way CV could guarantee some hits is not different from skill BB/CA Caps to score easy hits compare to real life warships or may be even easier compared to modern warships.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Moderator
4,163 posts
1,874 battles

 

If you propose 'historical based gameplay' just like that.... you must admitted that it might takes hours to just score a single hit for all type of ship which is impossible in game environment. The way CV could guarantee some hits is not different from skill BB/CA Caps to score easy hits compare to real life warships or may be even easier compared to modern warships.

 

I'm NOT proposing historical gameplay, I'm analyzing and providing feedback on current gameplay.

 

As to your historical comment, that's a misconception. It takes *hours* for fleets to maneuver into contact with each other - but in game, fleets already start out in contact. When fleets are in contact, hits can be registered in minutes due to the kind of fire control and range correction present.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
18 posts
502 battles

 

1. Torps are still able to be dropped at a distance where battleships (and some cruisers) literally cannot avoid them.

2&3. This is the crux of the issue. Most battleship captains can take evasive maneuvers the moment torpedo bombers show up on the minimap, ~7-8km out. However, squadrons are a hell lot more maneuverable than battleships and are able to pick their attack angles to compensate for the evasion. Yeah, sure, they're going to suffer plane loss (or at worst, squadron losses), but squadrons are replaceable (yes, I know it's to a certain extent, but latter tier carriers carry quite a few replacements), and in exchange, they're capable of doing devastating damage to battleships/cruisers. And then this runs into the issue I highlighted earlier. CV captains are able to trade off considerably less risk and get considerably higher rewards than any other ship in the game, given that they're not risking their ship at all in these attacks.

 

Yes, its possible for a CV to see its entire armament depopulated. I'm not disputing that. But unless you're stupidly flying your planes about, that's going to be inexchange of doing incredible damage to the opposing team's conventional ships, leaving your own conventional team free to exploit that. Given how wonky MM is with regards to carriers at the moment, this is a pretty significant issue. But even with matched carriers on both teams, we run into an issue where the entire game revolves around carrier gameplay, with each carrier seeking to wreck as much of the enemy fleet as possible and the individual fleets themselves having the main priority of avoiding enemy carriers and the secondary priority of killing each other. That skews the game design towards the carrier classes, as opposed to balanced out among all four classes in the game.

 

P.S. Don't use red text. It's reserved for moderation purposes.

 

  1. CV could not always scores all 6 hits from a squad and for that reason you couldn't says that it's impossible to dodge while you could dodge some of them. In addition, I don't think making BBs could mostly clean dodge is not a good balancing anyways.
  2. Let's say each torps do 6000 damage on middle tier, that would takes 10+ hits to sunk 40K HP BBs.  While BB could shot down 1-2 and mostly dodge a few or more of them. It's means that the damage is not that devastating.
  3. AA mechanism is already do more damage the closer it gets as lower caliber guns could also fire.
  4. CV literally couldn't do anything without their planes. In middle tier cv, I occasionally run out of planes. Idea of increase damage AA inflicts to the planes as CV itself doesn't take any risk is not applicable as CV with no plane is almost considered sunk.
  5. CV takes at least 5 minutes to do a damage to other ships in 1 cycle. If you think that the damage it did could affect game that bad, try consider other ships:

    BB Fuso could do 1 hit kill to Cleveland that has 30k+ of HP every 30 sec. Well, if that's too much we could consider it just 10k of damage on average. in that 5 mins you could do 100k damage to any kinds of ship.

    DD Hatsuharu could kill Fuso immediately with 6 hits of their torp.

    Compared to these, CV is not superior to other class.

  6. Each class should have its strength as well as its weakness. For large ship like BB, if you can't cleanly avoid torps. It's completely normal for ship that large and heavy. But I still often see that BB could manage to dodge torp cleanly or takes just 1-3 hit out of 12.
  7. The real history you mentioned is indeed revolve around CV. Even IJN with mighty Yamato falls because of CVs. However for the game, ever class is interrelate with each others. CV couldn't survive with bad front line. BB would be stormed with torp unless sticking together with CAs or other BBs or have CV fighter protect them. DD could do more devastating and more frequent damage to any ship at cost of the light armor low HP and small gun. They will need cover fire from other class to protect or drawing attention away from DD so that they could sneak through.

 

I don't think things you suggest could be called balancing. It's more likely that you want superiority of CA or BB with a lot lesser weakness.

 

However, I do agree with unbalance MM must be fixed. I think CVs is ones suffer the greatest due to MM.

 

Remark: I played CV 'Least Often'. I mostly play CA and BB. But I see none of good reason to make CV more weaker than this.

Edited by PrototypeAlphaX

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
545 posts
2,381 battles

 

You should be trying to avoid them before they even get to that range in the first place. 

 

not possible , they will just adjust and drop from different angle .

I'm totally not agree with removing manual dropping. It's only way for cv caps to use their experience to estimate next move and intercept it.

As you says "you can drops torps almost on top of any ship with a guarantee of alot of hits or sinking a ship" which totally false.

  1. Torps will not be armed and do any damage if they're dropped too close to target ship so it's not like we're dropping that close.
  2. Some BB Caps complain that TB drop torps at last 500 meter range. I advise that targeted ship, especially for CA, BB, should deploy their scout as it could detect torp direction much sooner and counteract. As for BBs, it might be hard to avoid every hits but at least you could minimize damage taken.
  3. In case you expect to avoid torp clean and unscratched while your alone, it won't be fair for CV too no matter the means you present. If you need stronger AA, why don't stick together in formation? If you need further torp detection, just deploy scout. if you want to dodge torps, begin your countermeasure as soon as you see TBs heading your ways  'before' TB droping torps.

 

Well, I don't think of manual drop is the problem.

 

#Text color changed, Thanks for warning..

 

 

 

this does nothing, if you lucky and have a group , you might be able to cover each other ...........90% games are filled with special people who dont have a clue what they are doing .

 

a good cv play will adjust his angle or do a cris cross , so not matter which way you turn , you will get hit by 3 to 4 torps from each salvo 

Edited by kongman

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beta Tester
545 posts
2,381 battles

And here, we see a species of a sailor called muchrage hemadmuch who keeps getting sunk by Torpedo Squadron.  it's trying its best to survive in its habitat called the sea by evading torpedoes but it gets sunk no matter how he evades them. 

 

 

 

you a special person arnt you . 1 in about 20 game i might die to a torp bomber , bit hard to dodge 4 of them at once , 

 

 

so do you think they are ok or do they need some tweaking.(torp bombers)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×