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j0e90

Help Convincing Clan Mate DE on british BBs is a waste of 3 points

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Yeah, like it says in the  title. He is convinced DE has made a big difference to his counqeror. Oh he also runs survivability expert as well. Lost that discussion.

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I’m afraid he has an incurable case of noob.

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Sorry, there no way to talk to this guy to changed

As a good friend, he have to be sent to gulag

 

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Convince him to use IFHE and Secondary build instead.

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3 hours ago, j0e90 said:

Yeah, like it says in the  title. He is convinced DE has made a big difference to his counqeror. Oh he also runs survivability expert as well. Lost that discussion.

Hrmmmmmmm

Probably the easiest thing to do would to get him to send you a replay and then do some hard maths over a video...

Otherwise explain the hard maths for him...

DE - increases fire chance by 3% but that's more like 1.5% due to fire reduction at that tier, which is one extra fire per 67 shell hits.

How much damage would that fire do?

Then compare it to say... BoS or SI, BoS for how much damage it would reduce, SI - how much could one of his heals heal...

Then do the same with 3500 extra HP.

Goodluck!

Edit- obv adjust it according to correct numbers

Edited by S4pp3R

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6 hours ago, j0e90 said:

Yeah, like it says in the  title. He is convinced DE has made a big difference to his counqeror. Oh he also runs survivability expert as well. Lost that discussion.

there is old advice from hermit, the secret of happiness.

      "never debate with "idiot" and you will be happy..... "

 

you dont need to convince him. as long as he keep playing, his skill and awareness increase. later he will understand

for now let everything flow

 

as long as everything work, it wasnt stupid

 

2 hours ago, S4pp3R said:

 

Then compare it to say... BoS or SI, BoS for how much damage it would reduce, SI - how much could one of his heals heal...

Then do the same with 3500 extra HP.

Goodluck!

ask Drakon, i remember S.E didnt add more heal

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12 minutes ago, Sir_Feather said:

QE is literally a T6 British Yamato. Why the eff he shoots HE (other than against the bow tanking T8 BBs)? 

OP is talking about his clanmate running Demo Expert and Survivability Expert captain skills on T10 Conqueror.

Not sure what Queen Elizabeth at T6 has got to do with anything? :Smile_unsure:

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2 minutes ago, HobartAWD said:

OP is talking about his clanmate running Demo Expert and Survivability Expert captain skills on T10 Conqueror.

Not sure what Queen Elizabeth at T6 has got to do with anything? :Smile_unsure:

I was not sober. I thought I saw QE on this thread.:Smile_facepalm:

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14 hours ago, Skarhabek said:

there is old advice from hermit, the secret of happiness.      "never deb
ate with "idiot" and you will be happy..... "

 

THIS.

Thing is he's a good BB jockey, in a rip shit in bust smash em kinda a way. A real asset in divs.

I went through the math on our discord, pointed out that BEST case DE will give 2% more fires PER GAME due to T10 ships haivng built in fire resistance values.

Ditto for SE, all the old tropes about UK dont nee dmore health, you leverage your super heal in conjunction with adrenaline rush etc etc.

Really Im just venting, he's a top guy and if his build makes him happy, I should just STFU.

No one likes an anal retentive maths pedant 😉

 

 

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2 hours ago, j0e90 said:

 

THIS.

Thing is he's a good BB jockey, in a rip shit in bust smash em kinda a way. A real asset in divs.

I went through the math on our discord, pointed out that BEST case DE will give 2% more fires PER GAME due to T10 ships haivng built in fire resistance values.

Ditto for SE, all the old tropes about UK dont nee dmore health, you leverage your super heal in conjunction with adrenaline rush etc etc.

Really Im just venting, he's a top guy and if his build makes him happy, I should just STFU.

No one likes an anal retentive maths pedant 😉

 

 

Pretty much.  You may be right but sometimes you just have to let it go

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2 hours ago, j0e90 said:

 

THIS.

Thing is he's a good BB jockey, in a rip shit in bust smash em kinda a way. A real asset in divs.

I went through the math on our discord, pointed out that BEST case DE will give 2% more fires PER GAME due to T10 ships haivng built in fire resistance values.

Ditto for SE, all the old tropes about UK dont nee dmore health, you leverage your super heal in conjunction with adrenaline rush etc etc.

Really Im just venting, he's a top guy and if his build makes him happy, I should just STFU.

No one likes an anal retentive maths pedant 😉

 

 

Sorry but I'm gonna be a 

2 hours ago, j0e90 said:

anal retentive maths pedant

because the logic hurts.

 

You should be looking at the ship's fire chance, less focus on the enemy's resistance.

Conqueror has 48% base fire chance, 3% would bring it to 51%. This means each shell will cause a fire 6.25% more frequently compared to the normal shell.

This could be compared to something like Yoshino, with 27% --> 30%, which would gain a 11% benefit.

Now look at something like Smolensk, who goes from 8% -> 11%, which is an effective 37.5% increase. This is big enough to be obvious to players.

IFHE Harugumo would go from, 2.5% -> 5.5%, for a 120% benefit.

 

Conqueror gets the least out of DE, compared to all other ships. But hey its still half of Yoshino's benefit

 

Notes:

This doesn't take into account flags, which would reduce DE's effective impact.

Fire chance also has a small diminishing return, because its 0% if target section is already on fire.

 

 

As for SE on Conqueror...its only a 4% increase on total hp.

Thats worth 13secs of a single fire...

Edited by Verytis
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If he has no problem using DE on a ship that has 48% fire chance per HE shell, then tell him to watch that How It Works video on HE shells and fire.

SE on any BB is just a f*cking meme, indicating unfavorable... qualities of the player.

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1 hour ago, Verytis said:

Sorry but I'm gonna be a 

because the logic hurts.

 

You should be looking at the ship's fire chance, less focus on the enemy's resistance.

Conqueror has 48% base fire chance, 3% would bring it to 51%. This means each shell will cause a fire 6.25% more frequently compared to the normal shell.

This could be compared to something like Yoshino, with 27% --> 30%, which would gain a 11% benefit.

Now look at something like Smolensk, who goes from 8% -> 11%, which is an effective 37.5% increase. This is big enough to be obvious to players.

IFHE Harugumo would go from, 2.5% -> 5.5%, for a 120% benefit.

 

Conqueror gets the least out of DE, compared to all other ships. But hey its still half of Yoshino's benefit

 

Notes:

This doesn't take into account flags, which would reduce DE's effective impact.

Fire chance also has a small diminishing return, because its 0% if target section is already on fire.

 

 

As for SE on Conqueror...its only a 4% increase on total hp.

Thats worth 13secs of a single fire...

Okay, my turn.

DE is 2 % , not 3. And the built in fire reistance DOES impact on the real world effect of fire chance and DE. To ignore it is just kiddng yourself. Esp at high tiers. We all know that DE scales massivly for low fire chance shells.

 

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Demolition expert adds to the fire starting chance of the HE shells. It adds a fixed percentage (+2%) to the base chance. Meaning, the lower the shells fire-starting chance is initially, the more difference it makes. 1% would increase to 3% (3-fold increase), but 50% would only increase to 52%.

So, clearly it makes little sense to spend it for shells which already have 30 or 40% base chance.

For the opposite case, it depends. If your ship spits out tons of shells with 5% base fire starting chance, and you are in the habit of starting fires, it makes sense to spec DE. If your ship just isn't much of a fire starter, even doubling the base chance may not make much of a difference. For fires to be really effective, you have to start enough of them that the enemy can't put them out. It's the fires that stick, and multiple fires that stick, that do the real damage.

An interesting border case is Zao. Base chance is 19% (seems to have been tweaked recently?), but most people spec DE anyway. Even though it doesn't make a huge difference in an absolute, per shell, basis, 10% more fires when you typically start 8-10 fires per game potentially means another 1-2 "sticky" fires and an easy 15-30k extra damage.  Or so us Zao captains like to think, anyway.

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1 hour ago, j0e90 said:

Okay, my turn.

DE is 2 % , not 3. And the built in fire reistance DOES impact on the real world effect of fire chance and DE. To ignore it is just kiddng yourself. Esp at high tiers. We all know that DE scales massivly for low fire chance shells.

 

I don't need to give a crap about fire resistance values, unless the fire-chance/resistance ratio is so bad can frequently keep my targets burning with multiple fires at which point DE doesn't do much because they're already burning. 

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10 hours ago, j0e90 said:

We all know that DE scales massivly for low fire chance shells. 

But that is the reason why DE isn't effective on Conqueror - because it already has a ridiculously high fire chance. Not because Tier 10 ships have a 50% innate fire resistance. A flat 2% increase isn't going to matter much when the Conqueror already has a 48% fire chance.

Citing the 50% fire resistance as a reason not to take DE is like saying all Tier 10 ships shouldn't take DE. Because all T10 ships will face other T10 ships.

 

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Ah, but if you take IFHE the fire chance drops to 24% and therefore DE is sort of... maybe... if you can fire a real lot of shells during a match... possibly noticeable. SE is a great choice for Battleships because it lets you heal a bit more after the increased fire and flood damage you take from having SE... uh, or something... Hmm...

So yes, IFHE Conqueror with DE and SE sounds good. Just don't be on the Green Team.

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2 hours ago, Thyaliad said:

But that is the reason why DE isn't effective on Conqueror - because it already has a ridiculously high fire chance. Not because Tier 10 ships have a 50% innate fire resistance. A flat 2% increase isn't going to matter much when the Conqueror already has a 48% fire chance.

Citing the 50% fire resistance as a reason not to take DE is like saying all Tier 10 ships shouldn't take DE. Because all T10 ships will face other T10 ships.

 

Also, BBs have slow reload, so you won't get much bang out of an extra 2% There are much more useful 3pt skills.

DE is best for rapid firing guns.

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