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Der_Ozeanfuchs

The Double Standard With The National Ensigns

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Look i know i'm nowhere near the first person to moan about this and i wont be the last but as of late the Soviet ensign in the game has really been annoying me for several reasons. The double standard when it came to the ensigns in the game is breathtakingly obvious, the reason for the removal for the flag for the IJN was controversial at the time to say the least but it was also understandable.  Although the Japanese navy may not have committed and war crimes or atrocities under that flag the same could not be said for the Japanese army so although i don't agree with its removal i understand the choice its clear that when it comes to ensigns WG where taking the safe route. the flag of the Kriegsmarine was of course never a viable option for several obvious reasons so i wont get into that, but what i am trying to get at here is that its,                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        

RareSinfulHornshark-size_restricted.gif

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Don't get me wrong here i'm not necessarily calling for the removal of the soviet ensigns in fact i think it should stay for the same reason that all the proper national ensigns should be reinstated. Its history in a game based on historical ships showing the flag if the Imperial navy or Kriegsmarine is not going to turn the player base into fascists and imperialists just like the soviet ensigns are not turning anyone into communists, in fact i think it does the opposite this game has a way of getting kids and people into history and as people run off and google things like soviet Russia and Nazi Germany they learn about the evil of these regimes, I think WG just burying there heads in the sand and banning the use of fascist symbols and continuing to allow the use of communist ones sends the wrong message to the community and most notably its younger audience i think that George Santayana put it best when he said the famous quote "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. What i am really asking for is just for every one to get a fair shake of the stick either can the Soviet emblems or allow the rest of the nations historical emblems.

 

please forgive the rant i know this wont really go anywhere i just have the flu and i have been stuck at home away from work stewing in my own head and for some reason this was the thing that was annoying me most this week.

and because i'm in a cute mood have some bed time reading wont find this stuff talked about on the Russian forums:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_crimes 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_the_Soviet_Union 

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Because it is illegal in France and Germany to have Nazi symbols. France has victor's gloat while Germany has victim's shame. IJN one is because of china. They want to market it in china so they kowtow to the red bean army. Soviet, well, we all know about the bias.

Unfortunately, we live in a biased, hypocritical world full of stupid political correctness. The biggest double standard? "Freedom to do <insert something>" completely BS because your "freedom" to do something infringes on someone else's "freedom". OP has illustrated this perfectly. It is "my right to adorn something I like" but people get pissed because "their right to say it is glorifying something they don't like".

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Different countries have different laws regarding these ensigns. They mean different things to different people. When marketing WoWS to other countries, WG have to respect the laws on showing these ensigns, regardless of how historical they are.

If the US were to decide to ban depictions of the hammer and sickle, WG would have to change this too. Don’t think that’s too likely to happen though.

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4 minutes ago, Grygus_Triss said:

Different countries have different laws regarding these ensigns. They mean different things to different people. When marketing WoWS to other countries, WG have to respect the laws on showing these ensigns, regardless of how historical they are.

If the US were to decide to ban depictions of the hammer and sickle, WG would have to change this too. Don’t think that’s too likely to happen though.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45142651

https://www.pcgamer.com/au/germany-lifts-ban-on-swastikas-in-videogames/  

I mean yea but kinda no i think those laws where mostly repealed, also i don't think any country has a ban on the IJN flag as it is still in use today 

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19 minutes ago, dejiko_nyo said:

IJN one is because of china.

Korea, when they were releasing the game the Koreans were the ones who complained, so when the Koreans were about to get their flags in the PADD the Japanese complained back, EAS geopolitics is generally an issue that most game companies just steer far clear from, better to offend no one than offend everyone 

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15 minutes ago, Grygus_Triss said:

If the US were to decide to ban depictions of the hammer and sickle, WG would have to change this too. Don’t think that’s too likely to happen though.

That would be the most ironic piece of hypocrisy that ever would have happened. Though, people in US are unlikely to display hammer and sickle because they would be UNPATRIOTIC COMMIES.

6 minutes ago, drakon233 said:

geopolitics

yes. that ridiculous piece of shit. I am not surprised that the Japanese went tit-for-tat. These 3 countries are just being very stupid.

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Just now, dejiko_nyo said:

That would be the most ironic piece of hypocrisy that ever would have happened. Though, people in US are unlikely to display hammer and sickle because they would be UNPATRIOTIC COMMIES.

yes. that ridiculous piece of shit. I am not surprised that the Japanese went tit-for-tat. These 3 countries are just being very stupid.

you forgot about best korea?

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4 minutes ago, drakon233 said:

you forgot about best korea?

Korea is Korea. There is no north or south. Just Kim Jong Un.

<watches the geopolitical storm that ensues>

<press many buttons>

Edited by dejiko_nyo
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I believe I understand this argument/debate over "national" flags. I also think I could argue for both sides.

But I also think it may be a useful personal development step for people saying, "I can't have swastikas so therefore you can't have X flag on your boats" to ask themselves where this emotion is coming from.

If it's actually a closet belief that the nazis should have won WW2 then there are probably other forums on the internet you could find to bitch about it.

"Storm" something I believe might be a place to start.

Also, if you want to indulge your nazi pride and you don't feel it busting up the oceans in your Bismarck or Tirpitz then you may be doing it wrong.

Nazis weren't Germany. The swastika was a political flag flown by far right extremists.

Best line from Captain America?

"People forget that the first country the Nazis invaded was their own".

Germans are better than the horrible decisions of the early 20th century. Japanese too for that matter. Time to move on, accept repentance and look forward.

Historical accuracy is one thing, glorifying things best left in the past is another.

I'd still vote for historically accurate flags given the chance though.

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3 minutes ago, Max_Battle said:

I believe I understand this argument/debate over "national" flags. I also think I could argue for both sides.

But I also think it may be a useful personal development step for people saying, "I can't have swastikas so therefore you can't have X flag on your boats" to ask themselves where this emotion is coming from.

If it's actually a closet belief that the nazis should have won WW2 then there are probably other forums on the internet you could find to bitch about it.

"Storm" something I believe might be a place to start.

Also, if you want to indulge your nazi pride and you don't feel it busting up the oceans in your Bismarck or Tirpitz then you may be doing it wrong.

Nazis weren't Germany. The swastika was a political flag flown by far right extremists.

Best line from Captain America?

"People forget that the first country the Nazis invaded was their own".

Germans are better than the horrible decisions of the early 20th century. Japanese too for that matter. Time to move on, accept repentance and look forward.

Historical accuracy is one thing, glorifying things best left in the past is another.

I'd still vote for historically accurate flags given the chance though.

Don't misunderstand the German pfp and name i detest the Nazis and all there ideals i'm just a fan of Erwin Rommel, i'm not really arguing for swastikas to be put on ships i'm more or less trying to make the point that not being to able to have flags for one nation because of past crimes but one nation can because their crimes are less known or because a certain player base cares more than another is stupid 

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Just replace the Hakenkreuz with the Buddhist swastika... :fish_book:

Seriously, I like the Eisernes Kreuz. The Hakenkreuz is a perversion of a sacred symbol.

Edited by Paladinum

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I don't think this is entirely because the "Axis bad, Allies good" mentality. WG also refuses to show the Kaiserliche Marine ensigns on the WW1-era German ships although they show the Imperial Russian Navy ensigns on the low tier Soviet/Russian ships (e.g. Bogatyr & Imperator Nikolai). Yes we literally got the Prussian Flag from PEF event/Belle Epoque collection. But that is still not a default thing.

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4 minutes ago, Der_Wustenfuchs said:

i detest the Nazis and all there ideals i'm just a fan of Erwin Rommel

Who voluntarily fought under a nazi flag and killed Australians.

 

6 minutes ago, Der_Wustenfuchs said:

tumblr_inline_pdex2myPU61qhmbfx_500.gifv

Only the Sith (space nazis) deal in absolutes.

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6 minutes ago, Max_Battle said:

Who voluntarily fought under a nazi flag and killed Australians.

such is war

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9 minutes ago, Max_Battle said:

Who voluntarily fought under a nazi flag and killed Australians.

And ended up committing suicide because he could not put up with the guy with funny mustache.

But neither the Wehrmacht, nor the Kriegsmarine had good relations with the aforementioned guy, especially when both of them got steamrolled by the Allies.

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1 minute ago, Sir_Feather said:

And ended up committing suicide because he could not put up with the guy with funny mustache.

But neither the Wehrmacht, nor the Kriegsmarine had good relations with the aforementioned guy, especially when both of them got steamrolled by the Allies.

Retrofitting history buys into the "Clean Wehrmacht, Clean Kreigsmarine and Clean Rommel" myth.

Rommel was one of Hitler's thugs. Sometimes thugs fall out with each other. Doesn't mean he wasn't a thug.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_clean_Wehrmacht

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/was-the-desert-fox-an-honest-soldier-or-just-another-nazi-6272076.html

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32 minutes ago, Max_Battle said:

Retrofitting history buys into the "Clean Wehrmacht, Clean Kreigsmarine and Clean Rommel" myth.

Rommel was one of Hitler's thugs. Sometimes thugs fall out with each other. Doesn't mean he wasn't a thug.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_clean_Wehrmacht

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/was-the-desert-fox-an-honest-soldier-or-just-another-nazi-6272076.html

Look i in no way condone the actions of the Whermacht when it came to the atrocities they committed during the war of which they committed many but i think calling Rommel a thug is a bit silly the man was greatly respected by allied generals and butted head with Hitler and the high command many times during the war. He was not a member nor was he ever connected to the Nazi party he was already serving and the army before the war had even started in the first place and he was executed for his unconfirmed involvement in attempting to assassinate Hitler. its not like i revere the ground he walks on i just respect him as a tactician and as a soldier. 

Edited by Der_Wustenfuchs

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6 minutes ago, Der_Wustenfuchs said:

Look i in know way condone the actions of the Whermacht when it came to the atrocities they committed during the war of which they committed many but i think calling Rommel a thug is a bit silly the man was greatly respected by allied generals and butted head with Hitler and the high command many times during the war. He was not a member nor was he ever connected to the Nazi party he was already serving and the army before the war had even started in the first place and he was executed for his unconfirmed involvement in attempting to assassinate Hitler. its not like i revere the ground he walks on i just respect him as a tactician and as a soldier. 

It's this kind of rose tinted glasses retrofitting of history that prevents you from getting swastikas on your botes.

"Rommel was okay man! He wasn't a nazi! He only fought for the nazis!"

Deluded. 

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Well the Swastika is removed both for obvious reason and for legal ones, and the IJN , well its not just China .. though mainland Chinese are the ( IMHO ) vocal one regarding that ; IJN Navy did had quite a history of war crime themselves dating back to Tsushima , and WW-II is especially ridden with such , just try to research the history of IJN Tone and there are quite a number of such. The IJN ensign is not only a reflection of that part of the history to China but to the whole Asian region as a whole and a lot more .. though for sake of true to historical truth I do not think its appropriate to remove them from documentary footage, or educational material but I can see the reason to not include them in a game .

The other ensign well its kind of a " am not so sure why " .. some of that clearly is motivated by political one, like the ROC flag on some of the original release of Asian DD ( and then got removed cause you know what ). the SMS flag likewise I simply do not understand why its not there either , but they had Free French flag I can put on my French ships ( but if we must be historicall correct, the basic French flag they put on French ships is also Vichy Flag ). Likewise I see Korean Navy Flag available so I can put them on my ( respectively appropriate ) Asian DD but they do not give me a PLA Navy flag ( guess that balance out the taking off of the ROC flag somehow .. lol )

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46 minutes ago, Max_Battle said:

It's this kind of rose tinted glasses retrofitting of history that prevents you from getting swastikas on your botes.

"Rommel was okay man! He wasn't a nazi! He only fought for the nazis!"

Deluded. 

The hell do you want me to say?, that he killed allied soldiers of course he did when i said he was a good tactician i didn't mean at chess the man pioneered the use of mechanized warfare and as for looking through things with rose coloured glasses the only thing i am looking at is fact and the fact is that for every insult and unproven claim you lay against the man you have no factual evidence where as there are countless first person reports from allied servicemen about their humane treatment from the men under Rommel's care .

If you can stop yourself from hurling petty insults maybe you can take the time to look up the story of Captain Roy Woldrige one of only many confirmed 1st person accounts of Rommel's humane treatment of POW's 

Edited by Der_Wustenfuchs
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I bet 10 silver this thread is going to be derailed and need to be close. 

 

Just saying, Nazi would not exist if Communist never exist or the German is in prospherity. Communist never exist if everyone have food and decent life. Poverty is the blame why we got war and war since ancient China. Till today.... What Murica did by forgiving Japanese and doing Marshall plan is the right thing to do. 

If you research the history, you will understand why poverty create fascism, how it ties with Communist, why so much hate on jews....

_________________________

Luckily, we live in 2000. WEEB IS THE BEST HUMAN INVENTION. No matter from what race, ideology, or nationality. WEEB stuff Unite people. 

 

We need in game Aqua Axis Flag, why don't everyone join us and create fanatic theocratic nation. We will invade other nation with our greatest meme under the heaven.

 

There wont be a war if everyone is weeb

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Skarhabek said:

I bet 10 silver this thread is going to be derailed and need to be close. 

KERCHUNK! KERLUNK! KABOOM!

Whenever the shark makes a sane comment, I wonder if the apocalypse is around the corner....

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28 minutes ago, Der_Wustenfuchs said:

The hell do you want me to say?, that he killed allied soldiers of course he did when i said he was a good tactician i didn't mean at chess

He lost.

28 minutes ago, Der_Wustenfuchs said:

the man pioneered the use of mechanized warfare

Wrong. That was Monash, an Australian Jew.

29 minutes ago, Der_Wustenfuchs said:

as for looking through things with rose coloured glasses the only thing i am looking at is fact and the fact is that for every insult and unproven claim you lay against the man you have no factual evidence where as there are countless first person reports from allied servicemen about their humane treatment from the men under Rommel's care .

I heard Hitler lovingly patted his dog once. I guess we had him pegged wrong too.

 

31 minutes ago, Der_Wustenfuchs said:

If you can stop yourself from hurling petty insults maybe you can take the time to look up the story of Captain Roy Woldrige one of only many confirmed 1st person accounts of Rommel's humane treatment of POW's 

I went for a drive the other day and I didn't exceed the speed limit. I too am awesome for following the rules in a given situation.

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I'm not sure if this thread is making me feel like reinstalling and hunting German botes and blowing them all up or mounting up in one of my many German premiums and Kriegsmarining the ocean to death.

Dichotomy.

Dialectisism.

Duopoly.

Two sided coin.

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