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MrHumpty_Dumpty

Is AP even useful anymore at Tier 10?

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3 hours ago, MrHumpty_Dumpty said:

but whats the point of shooting AP at a broadsiding CL when most of the time all you will do is 3-4 overpens, when he reloads every 3-5 seconds and slapping you with 4k salvos and constant fires?

Its a matter of aiming, although RNG can still occasionally screw you over. BB shells tend to either overpen or cit a broadside cruiser, so you have to aim at the waterline.

If the target is at an angle and you have overmatching AP, you can try to drop AP through his deck, bow or stern, and you'll get pens for it.

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4 hours ago, Verytis said:

Its a matter of aiming, although RNG can still occasionally screw you over. BB shells tend to either overpen or cit a broadside cruiser, so you have to aim at the waterline.

If the target is at an angle and you have overmatching AP, you can try to drop AP through his deck, bow or stern, and you'll get pens for it.

You forget, the classical 4884 damage from a Yamato.

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shot-20_01.19_12_25.08-0420.thumb.jpg.492afda65742f2fd24600ff088842e47.jpg

Can confirm AP is still useful, change my mind.

On 1/24/2020 at 3:51 PM, MrHumpty_Dumpty said:

the only real way this meta could possible change is making AP more appealing choice and either nerfing Fire damage or introducing SAP to all nations

And no I wouldn't want to see SAP on every nation, SAP is more toxic then HE. 

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12 minutes ago, Korrupt_Penguin said:

Can confirm AP is still useful, change my mind.

i did say in my original post that no one shoots AP except the Yamato and Des Moines for obvious reason, and therefore your point of deleting the mino in a Yamato is irrelevant

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30 minutes ago, MrHumpty_Dumpty said:

i did say in my original post that no one shoots AP except the Yamato and Des Moines for obvious reason, and therefore your point of deleting the mino in a Yamato is irrelevant

Alright I shall indulge you and show the lowest calibre BB at tier 10 using AP then (from last ranked)

shot-19_11.27_17_26.44-0311.thumb.jpg.b03718c869961af26c3542a0f53eb2a8.jpg

shot-19_11.28_17_17.16-0262.thumb.jpg.9dd2e934361efd80323d317078281059.jpg

shot-19_12.16_20_17.01-0383.thumb.jpg.665db7a1db4c3913c1a6fa6ad244ba60.jpg

Edited by Korrupt_Penguin
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If I'm honest when I first started playing I hated playing against HE ships HIV especially I have even been chat banned once in game for talking smack about people spamming HE. 
AP is just very situational you can't sling it all the time unless you see 20° + (Give or take depends on the boat)
But generally the only reason why people us HE over AP is 
1. Their gun calibre is too small AP is therefore meaningless and forced to use HE (Still depends on what your shooting like smolensk AP is still good against broadside CAs under 10km)
2. Gimmicks, Hindenberg has 1/4 pen so put IFHE on it and your cooking yamatos
3. The enemy ship actually has a brain and knows how to angle "mUsT UsE He"
4. BS russian BB armour 

AP is very powerful it just requires the right situations and positioning 

Edited by Korrupt_Penguin
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23 hours ago, Paladinum said:

Yoshino's AP is actually pretty good, but the HE are simply better. Consider this a challenge, or at least, a semi-practical experiment.

I effing retract this. I meant to say "Takao" and not "Yoshino".

Takao's AP can deal good damage when shooting against superstructure, which is easier to shoot at, but Yoshino's AP are far more situational and largely depend on which part of the ship they hit. Due to the sheer size of the shells, they do have high pen power and can citadel standard CAs/CLs at long range, provided that the cruisers are really showing their broadside. I should try using Yoshino's AP against superstructure more and resisting the impulse to shoot at the waterline. I think most hits will just be overpens.

I do have Alaska, however, due to higher shell speed I think Yoshino's AP can hit ships more reliably at long distance. Alaska's AP is more forgiving when the enemy is more angled due to enhanced autobounce angle.

German 203, while can deal significant amount of damage if you shoot at superstructure, are still lacking somewhat. I already demonstrated this in a thread. Maybe buffing AP shell speed could help, but I wouldn't know unless WG do it.

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On 1/24/2020 at 5:25 PM, Mechfori said:

Big guns user do not complain about how every 30 second or so they can salvo that which can single nuke those CA CL and no less DD ( When using HE ) and let's not forget its your big guns player peers who create this by keep asking for counter spotting , counter stealth , asking to keep the light force away and keep asking for op guns , larger guns , guns that shoot further harder and over match .

well you dont really nuke a cruier at 18km away because it takes so long for the shells to get there that most of the time they effectively angle away and dodge

 

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12 hours ago, Korrupt_Penguin said:

If I'm honest when I first started playing I hated playing against HE ships HIV especially I have even been chat banned once in game for talking smack about people spamming HE. 
AP is just very situational you can't sling it all the time unless you see 20° + (Give or take depends on the boat)
But generally the only reason why people us HE over AP is 
1. Their gun calibre is too small AP is therefore meaningless and forced to use HE (Still depends on what your shooting like smolensk AP is still good against broadside CAs under 10km)
2. Gimmicks, Hindenberg has 1/4 pen so put IFHE on it and your cooking yamatos
3. The enemy ship actually has a brain and knows how to angle "mUsT UsE He"
4. BS russian BB armour 

AP is very powerful it just requires the right situations and positioning 

I agree with the fact that AP is situational, but i find that HE is an overall better option due to fires being set regardless of the range and how it really damages BBs

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I have been pondering something close to this for a while (and working out how you would solve the current conundrum) - HE spam...

In response to the original question posed...

A short answer is Yes, but...

A longer form of the same response is Yes but there are conditions...

A longer form still is Yes but one has to consider a myriad of factors...

AP use is invariably tied to HE spam.

The primary challenge with HE spam is clearly fires and fires are a self-fullfilling prophecy...

Basically they become more effective at dealing damage the more they are used... Right now we are in a dry paper house that has used aviation fuel as propellent for all the gas lamps we use for all our lighting due to living in the middle of Australian bushland and lacking access to basic amenities such as electricity...

To cure us of these ills Wargaming has implemented improved Stalinium deck and new Stalinium nose armour...

Which in turn need more flamenwerfers to counter as no metal is dense enough to pierce it...

Ok I got side tracked... Wargaming are basically caught in their own feedback loop with armour, HE pen, low calibre guns on high tier ships and fire chance.

Thus AP are no longer skill rounds because HE spam reached critical mass...

I still haven't finalised my proposed solution to it, but HE spam will be un-effed at some point, you have my word... And at this stage probably after attached... (Ep 2 due out this coming weekend - sorry not sorry shameless plug)

But wouldn't it be nice if fire chance was halved...

Un-Eff-It-02-XP.png

Edited by S4pp3R

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5 hours ago, S4pp3R said:

...

But wouldn't it be nice if fire chance was halved...

 

Then it would need to be balanced with means for all the light force and plenty of CA to had a proper consistent and working measure to counter the big guns which once there were but since big guns mentality is just as bad as said WG had pretty much made the big guns too OP or even posdible to be play against ...do you just take away the only known mean for all these ships to counter the armor the unpenetrable even at mid to close range and the unapproachable due to all their speed and counter stealth measure 

This all start when WG nerf the torpedo to irrelevant and then its common CA and of course CL then WG try to remedies all with gimmicks after gimmicks but refuse to back down on ever more OP Big guns .

You cannot just go and say let's nerf fire chance to half without giving the all handicapped CL DD & CA some offensive and defensive measure to bslance it but then if given the proper one then big guns player start to complain because they csn be countered

And there is the issue too many big guns just feel like thyt should not be able to ne counteted exvept for equal peer big guns but this is a game every ship and every class and evert play style of ships should be given equal to be able to play ; play against vs each other .. with some leeway for specialization but clearly this is not so now

AP not being useful for any ship without over match caliber and consistency is clearly a contributing factor and you cannot balance that just by buffing AP interaction cause its too swayed towards big gubs favor.

Its how it is ... and the solution will need a complex and extensive change change thst would anger many players cause what's needed is allowing no longer OP Ships being OP and clearly why are we seeing so many so call good ships today in game - cause they are OP and the others are ill balanced to match and yet now these are asking to nerf the one single method to deal with them so they can remain OP and unable to be countered .. So much for so call game balance

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2 hours ago, Mechfori said:

Then it would need to be balanced with means for all the light force and plenty of CA to had a proper consistent and working measure to counter the big guns which once there were but since big guns mentality is just as bad as said WG had pretty much made the big guns too OP or even posdible to be play against ...do you just take away the only known mean for all these ships to counter the armor the unpenetrable even at mid to close range and the unapproachable due to all their speed and counter stealth measure 

This all start when WG nerf the torpedo to irrelevant and then its common CA and of course CL then WG try to remedies all with gimmicks after gimmicks but refuse to back down on ever more OP Big guns .

You cannot just go and say let's nerf fire chance to half without giving the all handicapped CL DD & CA some offensive and defensive measure to bslance it but then if given the proper one then big guns player start to complain because they csn be countered

And there is the issue too many big guns just feel like thyt should not be able to ne counteted exvept for equal peer big guns but this is a game every ship and every class and evert play style of ships should be given equal to be able to play ; play against vs each other .. with some leeway for specialization but clearly this is not so now

AP not being useful for any ship without over match caliber and consistency is clearly a contributing factor and you cannot balance that just by buffing AP interaction cause its too swayed towards big gubs favor.

Its how it is ... and the solution will need a complex and extensive change change thst would anger many players cause what's needed is allowing no longer OP Ships being OP and clearly why are we seeing so many so call good ships today in game - cause they are OP and the others are ill balanced to match and yet now these are asking to nerf the one single method to deal with them so they can remain OP and unable to be countered .. So much for so call game balance

Oh definitely... I wouldn't be stupid enough to suggest that a simple 50% fire reduction is actually the solution... It's why it was a throw-away tic comment at the end...

I had planning the HE spam episode as episode 2, or perhaps episode 3 after a CV/DD episode at 2... But both still need work, the HE one for issues you've raised above.

At the moment I'm trying to finesse IFHE into a a HE pen v fire chance balance and have it be a legitimate choice (yes I know Wargaming keep talking about their standardisation but there's a reason it's still in testing). I think I've nutted it down fairly well (they aren't far off) but I keep running into the roadblock of Stalinium deck armour... Well done Wargaming; you colossal fools...

The most immediate idea would be that against certain higher deck armour, fire chance remains as it is (part of my 'un-eff-it' is a blanket reduction in fire chance). I'll be honest though, I haven't crunched the numbers yet and doing that kinda defeats the purpose of nerfng fire chance in the first place...

Another option is to have IFHE provide an additional shell type sort of like a HE shell but with little to no fire chance... Then players would have to choose in battle on the fly... And tbh I thought that was what SAP would be when originally teased...

As an interesting side note, CV/DD episode keeps getting stalled due to me being stuck on the 'but if I do that, DDs are technically OP' ... which is an amusing unpopular opinion that everyone semi ignores. (Don't worry I would never suggest nerfing them).

And now you see why I'm taking on the XP system as an easier alternative, hahahaha...

Oh dang, gotta get ready for work...

Basically the feedback loop of fires needs to be ended, BB firing HE needs to be a last resort not a first option and AP needs to be more than just situational... And if anyone has simple fix ideas for all of that that doesn't completely screw game balance, I'm all ears...

Edited by S4pp3R

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