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Biggest reason why people hate CV

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At least from my view, it’s the spotting when firing guns. I’m cool with normal spotting but the ability to spot firing guns at a great range really screw a lot of people especially cruisers

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emm, no?

if you can shoot at something, the thing you shoot at and his whole team can see you too, no exceptions, and especially not in a CA

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8 minutes ago, drakon233 said:

emm, no?

if you can shoot at something, the thing you shoot at and his whole team can see you too, no exceptions, and especially not in a CA

I mean obviously shooting from behind cover. CV will then spot you because planes are everywhere. This undermines the cruiser play significantly. 
 

 

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Personally I think the biggest issue with CV's is that when the CV's planes spot you, then the whole enemy team can spot you. If instead, when a CV spots you, then ONLY the CV can spot you it would make the game more bearable to have CVs in it. It is the constant spotting which causes most of the issues people have against CVs IMO.

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1 hour ago, sfcgx3 said:

CV will then spot you because planes are everywhere.

Planes are most definitely not everywhere.  They are in fact only in one place, or at most two if they drop a fighter.

You have to assume you will be spotted when you plan your actions.  Just like in a DD you always need a "what will I do if I am spotted right now" plan, you also need those in a cruiser if you are using concealment to avoid damage.  Generally if you are stationary behind an island without an out if you are spotted, then you are playing poorly.  This plan can be as simple as having your bow pointed into cover rather than your stern, so if you are spotted you can just full ahead into cover before any shells can land.  It can also be as complex as keeping mobile but using islands that you aren't actually right next to as cover so you are not spotted, and then having that mobility to fall back on if you are then spotted - this is more challenging to do, but will result in greater success if executed properly, and being spotted will be much less of an issue.

Overall though, awareness of both what is happening now, and what will happen, is what is key to making the right decisions.  You need to know where all the ships and planes on the enemy team are, and where they will be in the next few minutes, so you have the information available to enable you to make properly informed decisions.

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Planes can be anywhere, but not "are" "everywhere".

WG are testing a mechanic that allows ships detected by planes wouldn't be seen by the CV's team mate, but minimap-only, unless that same ship is also spotted by a surface ship of the CV's team. Currently, Clan Battles only.

This should be extended to DDs being spotted by radar and only radar. They would be shown on the opposite team's minimap, and that is all. Radar should see through islands, but being able to target the ship by the whole team is excessive power.

 

Also, bring the hate please, #bringbackRTSCVs

Edited by Paladinum
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24 minutes ago, Paladinum said:

 

Also, bring the hate please, #bringbackRTSCVs

we can have BOTH

 

RTS for Carrier

CV rework for Light Carrier 

Semi BIG MAP RTS for Yamashiro

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Change the title to [Biggest reason why people hate being spotted}, and it shows the bigger problem. In short, anyone hates to be scratched right after being spotted, and not just DDs.

- BBs hate to get harassed by HE-spammers from behind covers (smoke & islands in particular).

- Cruisers hate to be nuked right when they are spotted, sometimes when there is no way to angle against multiple shots from different directions.

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IMO there's three major reason.

1st are spotting,

Plane may not everywhere but it can go everywhere bypass every obstacle with speed 3-4 times of ship and unrivaled maneuverability.

 

2nd, they can't be retaliated 

when someone shoot at you, you can try shoot back or at very least retreat out of their range, but none for plane. shooting down plane mean nothing, CV HP still remain safe and sound while they can deplete opponent HP freely.

 

3rd, odd angle of attack

in ship vs ship, you know general direction of enemy fleet and try angle to mitigate damage you took, but not for plane. they can came in for any direction and if you want to turn in to mitigate the damage, you'll end up expose your broadside to enemy ship instead.

 

 

but be careful, CV are WG love child...

I almost get ban simple because I speak ill truth about them...

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2 hours ago, Paladinum said:

Also, bring the hate please, #bringbackRTSCVs

Seconded, Thirded, Fourthed, etc ad infinitum.

 

2 hours ago, Sir_Feather said:

- BBs hate to get harassed by HE-spammers from behind covers (smoke & islands in particular).

Solution: Nuclear shells. Hiding behind that island eh? NO MORE ISLAND! (Limited to USN and Soviet T10 BBs)

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So why can dd have eyes and CV can't ? Double standard much ?

Any surface ship in this game can relay spotting to others.

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1 hour ago, legionary2099 said:

So why can dd have eyes and CV can't ? Double standard much ?

Any surface ship in this game can relay spotting to others.

Difference is, as pointed by someone here, there is no risk trade off and no obstacles for CV spotting.
 

For dd, you risk your life being radared or rocketed trying to spot someone stealthy. Also if someone is hiding behind an island, you must get LOS first, which triggers manoeuvre and more risks.

no such thing for CV:

- they only get hits when inside AA range

- even a few seconds of AA won’t deal enough dmg to squadrons

- even if you lose half a squadron so what, the CV is still very combat capable

- plane speed is much much faster and can fly to anywhere so very easy to spot behind cover enemies if you want and again, at very low risk

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25 minutes ago, sfcgx3 said:

Difference is, as pointed by someone here, there is no risk trade off and no obstacles for CV spotting.
 

For dd, you risk your life being radared or rocketed trying to spot someone stealthy. Also if someone is hiding behind an island, you must get LOS first, which triggers manoeuvre and more risks.

no such thing for CV:

- they only get hits when inside AA range

Sorry but after the 20% air detection buffs across all ships, most cruisers with deadly AA are only visible to CVs when their planes are inside the AA bubble. And being caught within those AA means the squadron will lose at least 40% of its hp (more if the planes eat the flak bursts).

 

34 minutes ago, sfcgx3 said:

- even a few seconds of AA won’t deal enough dmg to squadrons

Tell that to IJN paper-like planes.

 

35 minutes ago, sfcgx3 said:

- even if you lose half a squadron so what, the CV is still very combat capable

Tell that to Saipan & the entirety of UK CVs

 

37 minutes ago, sfcgx3 said:

- plane speed is much much faster and can fly to anywhere so very easy to spot behind cover enemies if you want and again, at very low risk

But only one place at a time, unlike the old RTS CVs.

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Well it would be better to call this spotting / counter spotting / Stealth / Targeting  .. its not just the planes

Yes the perma-spotting from planes is annoying and right now either you are out of that aerial detection range ( not usually a possibility ) or you hide , and that brings in the question : how to hide, the game actually had no mechanism to hide other than terrain & smoke and smoke are generally provided by either DD or RN CL ( and Italian can give you a running smoke if you stick close to the guy enough and follow ) but the current spec of course mean there is both not enough charge of smoke for both the DD and CL and also too long a cooldown in and between. Smoke remain the only counter spotting mechanism against Aerial Spotting / Visual Spotting and this is now limited by - a. limited and usually low number of DD and RN CL or anyone with smoke per game and they need the smoke themselves dearly , & b. even if they are good team player and help out they might still be caught between smokes especially short duration smokes ( say RN DD ) & c. the planes can wait out the smoke and you can do nothing about it and d. you are trapped in the smoke for that duration and that can be just as dangerous

The aerial spotting part of course is also not help by the fact that even AA Cruiser these days cannot actually made a picket fence AA screening guard , let alone any other ships so to counter the planes everyone had to huddle close and that made it even easier to aerial spot, once spotting the big BB just fly to the location and most likely founding the hidden Cruiser / DD there also .. in sort these less AA capable ships are partially denied their hiding option. DD. CL , and even plenty of CA can choose to ran off, hide either behind terrain or in smoke or just speed off their own aerial detection range but then you run the risk of abandoning your teammate and dooming him/her to certain death and of course you can bet enemy ships at the same time would not be just sitting and watching either ( provided they are within range )

And then the other spotting mechanism, the visual spotting .. I doubt anyone really think something need to be done to the specific mechanism other than fixing the delay in visual acquisition / targeting display of ships when spotted . Its so frequent that the game UI signal a visual spotting but it take another 2 or even 3 , 4 seconds before the ship actually show up

Then there's the Radar and Hydro , NO I do not think its fair for them to be able to penetrate landmass , all other spotting put the ship into the open to put the spotting capabilities there but  couple that with needed risk, and these , well hell nothing when hiding .. the mechanism should be as stated by Paladium, that is the ship being spotted will only be visual to the Radar / Hydro ship , not other ships unless its visually in acquisition & acquisition range to these other ships but the spotted ships will appear on minimap disregard. And I would add that for Radar and Hydro , the signal emitting ship , when activating their Radar/ Hydro should instantly be placed visible on minimap to enemy and also able to be acquired by enemy for enemy within visual acquisition range ( same as their radar spotted prey ). Active signal spotting should come with its own limitation and its own shortcoming just as passive means had and right now these active means had none.

And let's talk Sub ping, why should a ping able to penetrate landmass when everyone else can do nothing about it ; this further WG's misunderstanding of Spotting / Counter Spotting / Stealth relationship and only see the part of Spotting ( for the sub ) but not given equal counter spotting and Stealth to the surface ships.  -  This game right now basically had pretty much done away with Stealth and that is why the game develop into how it is , if stealth is not provided ; mobility and fluidity of any team are significantly curtailed and this further yet the strength of Spotting ( cause enemy are now bind to some natural location and hardly can they go anywhere else ).

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Players: Game is too campy! Everybody is camping behind islands and not supporting their teammates!

Also players: CV spotting is too strong! I can't camp behind islands safely without an exit plan anymore!

This is why as little as I trust WG to balance the game, I trust the playerbase even less.

4 hours ago, Sir_Feather said:

In short, anyone hates to be scratched right after being spotted, and not just DDs.

More like people just hate being scratched in general. They want to pew pew and do all the damage while taking none of it.

It is the same mentality that leads to cruisers camping behind islands, BBs sniping and DDs torping from max torpedo range.

It is the same mentality that causes people to lemming or to stall completely at the first sign of opposition.

People are complaining about CVs because they are the "acceptable tatget" for discrimination. If not for CVs, they will be complaining about stealth-torping DDs, island-camping HE-spamming cruisers attacking them "without risk".

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🙂
 
1 hour ago, Sir_Feather said:

Sorry but after the 20% air detection buffs across all ships, most cruisers with deadly AA are only visible to CVs when their planes are inside the AA bubble. And being caught within those AA means the squadron will lose at least 40% of its hp (more if the planes eat the flak bursts).

all, after the buff all high CAs and CLs have the same areal concealment as their AA bubble

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^ This. Is. Good. Summary. The 2nd one above that is.

Edited by dejiko_nyo

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16 minutes ago, Thyaliad said:

..

This is why as little as I trust WG to balance the game, I trust the playerbase even less.

...

People are complaining about CVs because they are the "acceptable tatget" for discrimination. If not for CVs, they will be complaining about stealth-torping DDs, island-camping HE-spamming cruisers attacking them "without risk".

 

You actually still put some trust in them , good fella you are, I no longer do .. and for the part people are already complaining about the stealth torping DD and HE Spamming Cruisers, plenty in fact , just check the multiple media sites, I cannot but chuckle when they keep complaining but showing themselves in their nice thickly armored big guns with plenty of HP all sailing back lane just doing long range gunnery

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On 1/22/2020 at 5:23 PM, sfcgx3 said:
 
 
🖋
 
1 hour ago, sfcgx3 said:

no such thing for CV:

- they only get hits when inside AA range

- even a few seconds of AA won’t deal enough dmg to squadrons

- even if you lose half a squadron so what, the CV is still very combat capable

- plane speed is much much faster and can fly to anywhere so very easy to spot behind cover enemies if you want and again, at very low risk

-the ships that can be permaspotted by CVs that arnt already unspotted from firing are usually only torpboats or DDs, but even then unless the CV has had surface spotting or has additional information it's very hard to actually find them on the map blind

-please, go ahead and try it for yourself at any tier that isnt T4, prove all the CV supporters wrong 😉

-losing half a squad is normal on asia with all the deathblobs sailing around, yes the CV will still have other options, but each type of squad in a CV's arsenal is specialized against certain types of ships (with the exception of USN CVs who are pretty ok against everything), combat-capable yes, combat-effective? perhaps not.

and besides, i've said it time and time again, CVs rely on time and multiple strikes to do damage and be effective in-game, you won't see them deleting a CA or BB with a single drop like DDs or BBs or even CVs. people get pissed that a hakuyru did 15k damage to them in the span of 2-3 mins when they don't realize that that's the only damage that he'll get in that 2-3m, which translates to 2-3 torp salvos, 6+ salvos from a BB or even hundreds of shells+fires from a CA/CL. that's the reason WG is giving CV high quality strikes that is almost certain to get 1-2 drops per attack run off before getting squad wiped, they know that CVs trade attack quantity for quality, and that's basically the only way that CVs can remain relavain without being OP, which dosnt help to aliviate the sense of helplessness from the ship being dropped... butwhat could be done to help though is to give players more control over AA and planes to increase surface/air interactions, too bad WG seems on insisting to dumb down the game for the plebs so i doubt we'll see it

-planes are fast, but the ships behind islands are not the kind you are going to able to <content removed> with without comitting to a squad wipe, DMs, minos, woosters, or even moskva and stalins have strong to squadwipe levels of AA,  you can only spot the ships behind a island if you get within their aa, soooooo, yeah no

 

Profanity. Post Edited. User Warned.

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here's the dilemma with Surface ship vs CV, all surface ships, they get hit and then they lose their ability to remain combat effective and most important they lose the capacity to continue combat and their chance of surviving decrease exponentially with every hit taken .. this is not reflected in CV play , getting hit ( AA ) reduce their ability to combat effectiveness but do noting towards reducing the capacity to continue combat and do nothing to the ship itself.

It could be argued that taking down planes also reduce CV's survival potential but that's taking this a bit too far. CV are not engaging enemy up front and by the time enemy surface ships can actually engage the CV its usually the breakdown of the team's surface fleet combat capacity that lead to that .. I do not entirely agree with what sfcgx3 stated, but the point regarding surface ship vs CV being too one sided regarding combat capable after damage taken is certainly a mechanism that create a kind of one sided inbalance which indeed surface ships player are legit in complaining about, many had been said about it  and key of that is the plane re-spawn mechanism , and of course CV's survival is not tie in to the damage taken with the squad .. some form of change might be needed in place.

My take is that all CV should had a maximum re-spawn plane quantity for all types of planes ( including fighter ) which ; together with tweaked re-spawn rate ( should be faster from the starting stage and gradually slow down after more re spawn needed or it can be much slower at the start and speeding up over time ) so to deploy in more planned manner instead of that they can just keep dumping onto the enemy. The surface fleet + CV within team interaction need to be tweaked, right now CAP is totally broken and do not function as it should. There are other CV play mechanism that's creating issues but those are not that important. Each and every class had some issue this and that so long the issue do not in large part play against the game , and game play fairness then its about fine balancing. Right now unfortunately plenty of CV's as discussed on this thread do constitute one

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1 hour ago, drakon233 said:

TL;DR

^ This is another good one.

Frankly, once people try playing cv and then attempting to play properly, they will realise how difficult it is. 

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5 minutes ago, dejiko_nyo said:

Frankly, once people try playing cv and then attempting to play properly, they will realise how difficult it is. 

That's why I can't play it. If I want to play something that tedious, I'd play RTS CVs instead.

...

Oh... 

Oops.

Edited by Paladinum

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Cruisers got too used to being invulnerable as long as they're behind island cover.

DDs got too used to being invulnerable as long as they're more than 12km from an island.

BBs got too used to sitting stationary anywhere they want and just bow tank.

Everyone got too used to running to a far corner, if they got low hp and needed to run down the timer.

 

So now people don't like the idea that they can't be perfectly safe and have to coordinate their AA.

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8 hours ago, sfcgx3 said:

Difference is, as pointed by someone here, there is no risk trade off and no obstacles for CV spotting.
 

For dd, you risk your life being radared or rocketed trying to spot someone stealthy. Also if someone is hiding behind an island, you must get LOS first, which triggers manoeuvre and more risks.

no such thing for CV:

- they only get hits when inside AA range

- even a few seconds of AA won’t deal enough dmg to squadrons

- even if you lose half a squadron so what, the CV is still very combat capable

- plane speed is much much faster and can fly to anywhere so very easy to spot behind cover enemies if you want and again, at very low risk

Pfft , the number one enemy for CV is not you. It is not your teammate either. It is time. When he is loitering he isn't shooting you. CV have medium alpha damage but very long attack interval.

DD loitering can still drop torps , and still hold control over cap. A CV can't do those.

AA isn't there to destroy planes , it is to deter plane from making easy kills. You are asking for CV to be combat ineffective and you become invincible to them. Double standard.

CV need to manage their planes. Losing half their squadron means he will run out of planes in 10 minutes. It is CV being dumb and you didn't exploit it. Learn to exploit it.

Read the map and start planning ahead. CV strike is no coincidence. You were targeted deliberately.

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3 hours ago, Verytis said:

Cruisers got too used to being invulnerable as long as they're behind island cover.

DDs got too used to being invulnerable as long as they're more than 12km from an island.

BBs got too used to sitting stationary anywhere they want and just bow tank.

Everyone got too used to running to a far corner, if they got low hp and needed to run down the timer.

 

So now people don't like the idea that they can't be perfectly safe and have to coordinate their AA.

Summary: KEEP MOVING TOGETHER. DON'T STOP.

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