Suddenly the Kremlin AA nerf became a Controversy

[IJN_Katori]

 

Flamuu had to do it to em (WG gets bashed again)

 

[Grygus_Triss]

ALL HAILT THE MIGHTY SPREADSHEET AND WG'S OPEN INTERPRETATION OF IT!

Yeah, I do love the fact that WG nerfs the Kremlin in a way that affects AT MOST 1/12 players on a team, and has absolutely NO effect if there are no CVs in the match.

Whereas they butcher the playstyle of other ships.

Of course, I'm not a competitive player, and I get ships more for the sake of having them rather than to dominate a game, so this affects me very little.

But the question everyone wants to know. Will the nerfs to the Kleber restore Russian Bias to the Khabarovsk?

[IJN_Katori]

6 minutes ago, Grygus_Triss said:

ALL HAILT THE MIGHTY SPREADSHEET AND WG'S OPEN INTERPRETATION OF IT!

Yeah, I do love the fact that WG nerfs the Kremlin in a way that affects AT MOST 1/12 players on a team, and has absolutely NO effect if there are no CVs in the match.

Whereas they butcher the playstyle of other ships.

Of course, I'm not a competitive player, and I get ships more for the sake of having them rather than to dominate a game, so this affects me very little.

But the question everyone wants to know. Will the nerfs to the Kleber restore Russian Bias to the Khabarovsk?

Unfortunately, No. Khabarovsk nerf is entirely the fall of the Russian DDs .Grozovoi is also getting hammered from nerfs soon. I dont call them Soviets because they dissolute and gone econcomic crisis after ww2 and cold war.

Russian Cruiser Kirov no longer had a spotter, another direct nerf.

Montana deserves either secondary gun buffs but was not common because Yamato can instantly destroys her.

[Reinhard_of_Avercland]

I took Kremlin for some matches after this nerf, and most of them had CV. The nerf does not really affect "CV vs Kremlin" situation that much, and it still took a ton of additional focused fire to bring the ship down. FYi my Kremlin uses full tank build, and it's hella effective tbh (ironically the only BB that can tank a lot of beatings).

3 hours ago, Grygus_Triss said:

But the question everyone wants to know. Will the nerfs to the Kleber restore Russian Bias to the Khabarovsk?

I think Khaba's main problem is the obsolete gun characteristics. Sure Khaba has fast & flat ballistics, but most DDs have faster reload while having less issues with the floaty ballistics because most of them don't use their guns from over 10 km away, Khaba also gets obsolete torps. I mean Kleber's torp has longer range, and travels faster

[humusz]

Well, jingles said in his vid. That Russian cc and playerbase belive there bias by wg.

But its french bias, and 2 french bias ship was kleber and hiv.

There is no Russian bias, only french. They all madlad overthere. Always pressing for french nerf but For them Kremlin is as balans as it can be 

 

And which ship got ban hammer instead? Yikess

[Mechfori]

Flamu is correct on that, WG keep nerfing the core of the ship but not the faulted gimmick they give to those ships .. Henri suffers, just as YY suffers, and somehow Kleber also ... but also WG just refuse to update, upgrade the old tech tree ships to made them stand on the same HIGH ground with all the new line and new ships WG put them on .. to be fair these days high tier IJN Torpedo boats need to had their guns significantly buffed and their torp should go 15KM even by default standard and having option to go that 20KM as Shima do. USS DD and CL need their guns range buffed, RN DD need their speed buffed, RN CL should be given possibility of HE ( but with low fire chance ) or they should had significant buff to AP ricochet, but then it become another sort of SAP and the list is long ....

And of course they think Kremlin is balanced , right ... it is so BALANCED

But I had to said the bias against Smolensk ( and Colbert , and to lesser extent Harugumo ) is IMHO over hyped, you are talking a CL that can easily be deal with by almost any ships CA, Super Cruiser, and BB , and even fellow CL, a salvo and you can cut its HP by 1/3 easily ... its trading its super ROF for a fragility that can be exploited . I had that ship and play it and play against it, I had no issue dealing with it even with just old tech tree CA , CL or even DD. I think too many big guns player are just in their unwilling to accept that you do not just over match everything mode of thinking .. come on seeing them , switch to HE, aim higher, get your team's CA to pair with you .. learn team play, grouping, formation, battle line instead of thinking OK we will power through everything

[humusz]

1 hour ago, Mechfori said:

to be fair these days high tier IJN Torpedo boats need to had their guns significantly buffed

Huh ? IJN Gun these days are great, wdym

Z52, Have same DPM with Shima now. and Shima even have way higher Chance of causing Fire than Z-52

you can gun duel in Shima with Famous "DD HUNTER" (lol) Z-52 and have decent chance of winning

Shima gun is not the worst anymore. but people just keep making asumption its the worst - just like Izumo is considered trash, but it was significantly way Better  now (the worst now is Z-52 lol)

 

you can ask, the shipJesus flamu himself, did Shima gun is a Joke - well, its not for a while now

[Mechfori]

if you only look at numbers , then Shima damage might be great ( on numbers only ) but consider the like of Kagero , Yugumo, and yes Shima also ; you cannot even train your gun onto the enemy cause that transverse is like Cruiser level ( and bad Cruiser level )  .. buffing do not mean increasing damage always its about making it work .. and right now IJN Torp boat in general are made pretty much useless on this regard , especially in close range brawl it would get into when hunted or countering enemy DD in encounters , the only IJN DD that had decent ( but not great ) transverse and can actually use those guns are the gunboat line and of course they use a different gun and gun mount. If for real IJN Torpedo boat guns are that effective, they would be , in flock, going out to hunt other DD already, they had the stealth after all and the Shima even got decent speed , even with Captain Skill invested all IJN Torpedo Boat's gun transverse way worse than any other DD without the Captain Skill ( exclude might be Mogador and Kleber which is not great but still better than IJN )

And coupled that with short range, long reload, and low HP, you cannot gun fight at all in an IJN Torp boat, you in fact likely would lose when faced with equal skill peers by all account almost always and of course WG made it very sure these days your torpedo and your stealth are practically made redundant when counter spotting / stealth measure and defensive fire to boot as well as ranging out almost all ( except Shima on 20KM torp )

OK they are torpedo boat so the guns are not mean to be the main offensive mean, right but its at the very least should be effective and operable as defensive measure and its not .. very part of it is this turret transverse. All IJN torpedo boat, and its not just the top end need some balancing on this regard from mid tire and up

[humusz]

or...................... You only need RPF, and you can train your gun PRE-EMPTIVELY 🤣 

skill investment for RPF with stealh build is like only 14, thats very cheap. most gunboat require even heavier investment. even Harugumo 19 skill pts is not enough 🤣

 

 

You want play gunboat shima ? you balancing ideas were preaty much a MEH. and there HAYATE and harumeme for that too 🤣

[PGM991]

shima's gun have a good DPM but bad ROF.

and ship with higher ROF can cripple opponent gun/engine/torpedo/etc far more often.

besides, we shima don't want to re-reload torpedo tube for that.

very very often, my tube is about to finish reload but random hit reset it to 100+ second again.... it's damn frustrated.

DO NOT fire your gun IF your torpedo hasn't finish reload yet, trust me.

.................

wait..... what are this thread is about again????

[dejiko_nyo]

6 hours ago, Sir_Feather said:

I took Kremlin for some matches after this nerf

I took mine out for a spin and asked:

WHAT NERF?

PS. There was no cv in my match.

As for DDs, RoF trumps everything. 

As for HIV nerf, Good Riddance. It needed a nerf. The main problem was virtually untouchable at range. It should never have had i) range ii) damage iii) penetration iv) speed v) maneuverability all rolled into one package. I would have nerfed its range instead, giving it mino ranged guns.

[Verytis]

There isn't any inherent issue of making a ship reliant on a "gimmick".

Henri carries 13.5mins of speed boost, before SI. Each speed boost can last 4.5mins with 1.5min CD inbetween. It spends 75% of its time under speed boost.

As for French DDs, they just nerfed it so that it has similar concealment to RU DDs. Its a lazy but low risk approach. Although you could argue RU DDs are a bad reference point because they're not good enough.

WG designed the French to fight in long bursts but in return have more vulnerability while on CD.

 

There is also a problem with nerfing the gimmick on only 1 ship, because the consumable exists on the entire line.

Its like how Harugumo and Khaba have an odd exception that do not apply to other ships of its line. It doesn't flow well.

 

Are the nerfs questionable? Yes, there might have been an overnerf. Especially Kremlin's nerf, which can't even be considered a slap on the wrist.

And it would be nice if they did more work to help return unique playstyles.

 

 

54 minutes ago, Mechfori said:

buffing do not mean increasing damage always its about making it work .. and right now IJN Torp boat in general are made pretty much useless on this regard , especially in close range brawl it would get into when hunted or countering enemy DD in encounters

If you're caught in a close range brawl using a line that is specialised in torps, you already made a mistake. Using terrain is a common tactic to reduce concealment disadvantage.

Your turrets are meant to be used in a kiting position, where you have gun velocity advantage, and can also use the saturated rear to help tank some dmg.

You also have concealment advantage to outspot the enemy, so you got some buffer time to react, assuming you didn't already rotate your turrets towards their general direction in advance.

 

 

Long reload itself isn't real a problem against enemy DDs since your HE shell dmg is same as the AP. IJN torpboats have very little reason to switch shells. You just have to aim better.

Range is not a major issue if you were using the weapon largely for self defense. You only fire guns when the someone is inside your concealment, or just giving you free shots. Shorter range also have shorter gun blooms when firing, which can be an advantage.

[dejiko_nyo]

29 minutes ago, PGM991 said:

shima's gun have a good DPM but bad ROF.

And poor traverse. That is a killer in a knife fight.

The problem is that a lot of people just look at one small piece of the big picture. Yes, "it can deal damage" but can it GET to deal the damage? It is the same issue that wg "balancers" fail to see. They only read spreadsheet but they do not see it the problems it causes in the real world.

[humusz]

1 hour ago, PGM991 said:

shima's gun have a good DPM but bad ROF.

and ship with higher ROF can cripple opponent gun/engine/torpedo/etc far more often.

Shima have high  advantage in alpha, speed, high concealment. that means you can almost always get the first shoot

You always have a choice engage and disengage  at will. not to take Prolonged fight where enemy ROF is king

in long skirmishes, Guirrela fight. Where you only need to fire one or twice before run - aside from Kleber gun, you can whitle any DD you face

1 hour ago, dejiko_nyo said:

And poor traverse. That is a killer in a knife fight.

With advantage in Stealh, Speed (with exception of Kleber or Khab)  and (optionaly) RPF. You have initiative to picking the fight - Prepared - picking the fight you can win

If you got ambushed, outsmarted or caught in the bad position. How is it the ship fault  ?

are you sure, your potato decision making ? are you sure its your playstyle not wrong ?  are you sure its  ship that let you down - the RAW Stats. 

 

Are you sure you utilize the ship to its most potential ?

 

Harugumo have Fast Turret Traverse - Godlike ROF - Fast Shell, But its notoriusly Bad in Knifefight.

Why ? Its big, Sluggish and it have "special trait" to eat BB AP Pen. in DD knifefight Torpedoes is usualy involved (and some Supportive fire - when Team is not stupid). same with Khabarovsk - fast turret traverse - unmatched railgun, but Khab and Harugumo is floating brick begging to be torpedoed in very close knifefight. (not to mention very bad torp angle on Harugumo)

beside, How many DD Fight involved 1 vs 1 from Full HP to 0. thats preaty much super rare

so................Are you sure you not being tunnel vision to the gun to much. when proclaiming bigger picture and what not ?

[Grygus_Triss]

55 minutes ago, dejiko_nyo said:

And poor traverse. That is a killer in a knife fight.

The problem is that a lot of people just look at one small piece of the big picture. Yes, "it can deal damage" but can it GET to deal the damage? It is the same issue that wg "balancers" fail to see. They only read spreadsheet but they do not see it the problems it causes in the real world.

For DD guns, its all about target acquisition, burst DPS and health pool.

DDs have to be able to quickly aim at target, and reduce its hp to zero faster than it can reduce you hp to zero.

Shima can't really do that effectively against any other full hp DD at tier unless its another shima, or captain is asleep at the helm.

[Grygus_Triss]

9 minutes ago, humusz said:

Shima have high  advantage in alpha, speed, high concealment. that means you can almost always get the first shoot

You always have a choice engage and disengage  at will. not to take Prolonged fight where enemy ROF is king

in long skirmishes, Guirrela fight. Where you only need to fire one or twice before run - aside from Kleber gun, you can whitle any DD you face

With advantage in Stealh, Speed (with exception of Kleber or Khab)  and (optionaly) RPF. You have initiative to picking the fight - Prepared - picking the fight you can win

If you got ambushed, outsmarted or caught in the bad position. How is it the ship fault  ?

are you sure, your potato decision making ? are you sure its your playstyle not wrong ?  are you sure its the ship that let you down not the RAW Stats. 

 

Are you sure you utilize the ship to its most potential ?

 

Harugumo have Fast Turret Traverse - Godlike ROF - Fast Shell, But its notoriusly Bad in Knifefight.

Why ? Its big, Sluggish and it have "special trait" to eat BB AP Pen. in DD knifefight Torpedoes is usualy involved. same with Khabarovsk - fast turret traverse - unmatched railgun, but Khab is floating brick begging to be torpedoed in very close knifefight

Are you sure you not being tunnel vision to the gun to much. when proclaiming bigger picture and what not ?

And if a Harugumo is fighting a Shima who is reloading's torps, whos worse off? If its fighting a Yue Yang? Or maybe the enemy has already fired and missed, maybe torps have been knocked out? In my experience, torpedos are either a first strike, fired before enemy gets close, or last resort, which usually results in both DDs dying. If you suspect the enemy DD you are fighting has its torps ready, you should not be in a position where it can torp you, usually happens when it shows broadside and stops firing.

Though I digress, I'm not saying a skilled player cannot use Shima effectively in DD vs DD combat, but in a straight 1on1 fight, Shima lacks the burst DPS and ability to quickly acquire target compared to many other DDs.

Which is why many Shima captains avoid such a fight to begin with and only pick the fights they can win, as you say. But that doesn't stop Shima from being less effective, especially if being aggressive.

[Thyaliad]

The IJN 127mm guns are fine tbh. They hit surprisingly hard and have very good initial shell velocity. I actually run some of my IJN DD captains with a hybrid gun/torp build - they have BFT and EM in addition to the usual TAE.

Sure they have poor reload and bad turret traverse. But the poor reload has a silver-lining, in that you can actually time your shots as you WASD. Bad turret traverse is circumvented by pre-aiming your guns or taking RPF. You still don't want to get caught in a knife-fight, but torp boats shouldn't be getting into kinfe-fights anyway. Most IJN torp boats have good concealment, leverage that to pick the battles that you want to fight.

The guns are good for self-defence purposes as you kite away, and your A-XY gun layout helps you alot in this situation. They are also good for getting pot shots in on distracted enemies. A lot of people really underestimate how much damage these guns can put out.

While I wouldn't mind if the turret traverse gets a slight buff, I'd be wary about going anywhere further.

[humusz]

11 minutes ago, Grygus_Triss said:

And if a Harugumo is fighting a Shima who is reloading's torps, whos worse off?

If Harugumo able to surprise a Shima - thats mean you are outplayed

the question is, with way superior advantage in Stealh, and Speed. you can avoid the fight easily, you can even perma spot Harugumo for your team to Kill her off. With RPF the chances of competent shima to get ambushed by "Fake" cruiser is preaty much slim.

 

All of argument here, is preaty much : WHEN SHIMA IS ALREADY AMBUSHED. SHE CANT FIGHT BACK (because enemy is somehow prepared, while shima gun facing wrong way, or Torp is reloadin)

IN ALL THAT FREAKING CASE -  is it realy your SHIP FAULT ? or YOUR POOR DECISION ? DID you aproach fight wrongly ?

 

IF Gearing, Yueyang, Daring etc caught in same situation, with Kleber or Harugumo. they practicly as dead as shima - thats not very convincing argument 🤣

[Grygus_Triss]

1 minute ago, humusz said:

If Harugumo able to surprise a Shima - thats mean you are outplayed

the question is, with way superior advantage in Stealh, and Speed. you can avoid the fight easily, you can even perma spot Harugumo for your team to Kill her off. With RPF the chances of competent shima to get ambushed by "Fake" cruiser is preaty much slim

Sure he can utilize island, and appear 5 km from you. BUT- is it realy your SHIP FAULT ? 

Why do you keep asking if its the ships fault? There are some things the Shima can do well, and some things it can't. Being able to push or defend caps and out gun certain ships, even if it does get the first shot, is something it struggles at.

What are we arguing about again?

[humusz]

15 minutes ago, Grygus_Triss said:

Why do you keep asking if its the ships fault? There are some things the Shima can do well, and some things it can't. Being able to push or defend caps and out gun certain ships, even if it does get the first shot, is something it struggles at.

What are we arguing about again?

here mate,  I never say its a Ship fault - I asking "is it realy your SHIP FAULT ? or YOUR POOR DECISION ?"

 

Your quote : " a Harugumo is fighting a Shima who is reloading's torps, whos worse off?" - is it Ship fault ? or your fault of picking fight with Harugumo 🤣

 

Like you said, there area that ships weak at. Shima never good at bruteforcing with Gun Firepower. so Why Shima picking fight with Harugumo in knifefight, when Her Torps on reload ? is it ship fault or Poor decision making ? 🤣

Shima have advantage in speed and Stealh, so she always can plan ambush and Initiate fight. If the condition is "Shima got ambushed" by Kleber-harugumo etc. Even for Kleber and Harugumo itself woud  strugle to fight back and Die. - let alone shima 🤣

 

Everyone undervalued, how Concealment, Innititive and Surprise in Gunfight

 

Kleber broken-es is not about the gun. its Combination of very high Stealh and Reload booster. You cant fight enemy DD properly if you spotted from 10km Away. even if you have DPS of Colbert

[Grygus_Triss]

2 minutes ago, humusz said:

here mate,  I never say its a Ship fault - I asking "is it realy your SHIP FAULT ? or YOUR POOR DECISION ?"

 

Your quote : " a Harugumo is fighting a Shima who is reloading's torps, whos worse off?" - is it Ship fault ? or your fault of picking fight with Harugumo 🤣

Is it my decision that a Shima has slow RoF, slow traverse and the lowest DD HP at T 10? No, its WGs decision.

Given that the ship has traits like that, its my decision what to pick fights with, so I avoid fights I can't win in a couple of salvos.

And why do I avoid fights so much? Because the Shima has slow RoF, slow traverse and the lowest DD HP at T 10.

As @dejiko_nyo says, these traits are a killer in a knife fight, and you seem to disagree, but its late and I'm tired, so I may have misunderstood.

[humusz]

Just now, Grygus_Triss said:

As @dejiko_nyo says, these traits are a killer in a knife fight, and you seem to disagree, but its late and I'm tired, so I may have misunderstood.

No, Its weakness in Knifefight. 

But how approach the DD fight with Shima.

1. With RPF, you can always pre-Emptivly Turn your gun to Direction of Threat First

2. With High stealh, you can SPOT the enemy FIrst. and Decide if you can gunfight him or not

3. With Speed, you can somewhat Flee if you misscalculated

 

[Mechfori]

Try to get Shima to outrun a French or even Soviet then ... yes its got some good concealment , and can run decently but that had been powercreeped to border irrelevant ; Long range Secondaries + Hydro, Radar, super fast CL/CA/BB , and even faster DD coupled with hard hitting guns that can actually train onto the IJN torpedo boats.

No, in an IJN Torpedo boat you try your best to avoid getting into any knife fight and a gun fight ; but that should not prevent the gun functioning as an effective defensive measure when its pressed to do so and right now that is the case ; it actually had been the case for long but its aggravated to out of proportion by addition of many more capable brawling DD , capable fast DD, capable CL and counter stealth that you as a DD cannot counter at all .. do remember we are talking not Just Shima but the whole IJN Torpedo line ; now tell me playing T8 Kagero, you had the gun to fight it when you try to cap and found 12KM Radar lightning you up and you had an enemy Le Fanatastic around .. don't even bother to fight, you cannot even defend or, nor run away, nor stealth out ..

So no IJN Torpedo Boat captains do not pick gun fight and knife fight, that does not mean they will not get into one; just as even the over spec French Gunboat are given OK and workable torpedos, ( and they do not need 20 sec to train onto the enemy either ) IJN torpedo boats should be given workable guns and its in this case not about the DPH , ROF, Alpha, fire chance etc ... its about that sick transverse and the ability for the boats to actually utilize those guns when pressed into it usually at the same time needing to wildly maneuver ( and then your gun mount never able to catch up )

[Grygus_Triss]

3 minutes ago, humusz said:

No, Its weakness in Knifefight. 

But how approach the DD fight with Shima.

1. With RPF, you can always pre-Emptivly Turn your gun to Direction of Threat First

2. With High stealh, you can SPOT the enemy FIrst. and Decide if you can gunfight him or not

3. With Speed, you can somewhat Flee if you misscalculated

 

Ah, so you were agreeing.

[Mechfori]

6 minutes ago, humusz said:

No, Its weakness in Knifefight. 

But how approach the DD fight with Shima.

1. With RPF, you can always pre-Emptivly Turn your gun to Direction of Threat First

2. With High stealh, you can SPOT the enemy FIrst. and Decide if you can gunfight him or not

3. With Speed, you can somewhat Flee if you misscalculated

 

1 . only if you are the one who can pre-emp the enemy , not going to happen when on the defense

2. No you do not had stealth especially with Radar, long range hydro, planes everything

3. talk to Soviet, French DD and no less even CA , CL and BB that can match or some that can even outrun you

Not every IJN Torpedo boat or any other torpedo boat are Shima class speedy, nor that stealthy ( try the mid tier ) ; I do recall my take is IJN torpedo boats need the buff, not that its specific to Shima .. this pretty much the whole IJN DD line other than those 3 high tier gunboats