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Leviathon7881

DD is the hardest ship to play in current meta

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Many games I have played as DD, team members expected you to capture the points and spot for enemy ships.  Once you have done your jobs by taking damage from CV, dog fighting with enemy DD, and taking hails of fire from enemy CA/BB, you looked back and suddenly found that all your CA/BB teammates already turn back and ran away....you are alone without any support.  Worst your teammates cursing your are noobs or stupid to get kill so fast.

Then there are games in which I saw there are no support following me when I try to capture the points as all CA/BB stay far away from me, so I decided not to go capture points and instead try to move around and spot for enemy.  So guess what, teammates started cursing you are noobs, and if you do not go capture points, go delete all your dd.

The current meta for dd is that you will be targeted by CV at the beginning on the match.  If you are the only dd in the team and enemy CV is smart enough, they will keep sending planes to hunt you until you are dead so that enemy dd will have the advantage.  Once you are lucky of reaching the capture points, you will start hunting by CA radar while the enemy CV will keep sending planes toward you.  If none of your CA/BB are close to you for support, you are doom and all blame on you.

Need to start watching more YouTube on others how they deal with the current challenge with dd....

 

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6 minutes ago, Leviathon7881 said:

Many games I have played as DD, team members expected you to capture the points and spot for enemy ships.  Once you have done your jobs by taking damage from CV, dog fighting with enemy DD, and taking hails of fire from enemy CA/BB, you looked back and suddenly found that all your CA/BB teammates already turn back and ran away....you are alone without any support.  Worst your teammates cursing your are noobs or stupid to get kill so fast.

Then there are games in which I saw there are no support following me when I try to capture the points as all CA/BB stay far away from me, so I decided not to go capture points and instead try to move around and spot for enemy.  So guess what, teammates started cursing you are noobs, and if you do not go capture points, go delete all your dd.

The current meta for dd is that you will be targeted by CV at the beginning on the match.  If you are the only dd in the team and enemy CV is smart enough, they will keep sending planes to hunt you until you are dead so that enemy dd will have the advantage.  Once you are lucky of reaching the capture points, you will start hunting by CA radar while the enemy CV will keep sending planes toward you.  If none of your CA/BB are close to you for support, you are doom and all blame on you.

Need to start watching more YouTube on others how they deal with the current challenge with dd....

 

welcome to the lunatic club that's called WOWS DD players, may be we all had a bit of Masochist in us

Edited by Mechfori

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10 minutes ago, Leviathon7881 said:

Many games I have played as DD, team members expected you to capture the points and spot for enemy ships.  Once you have done your jobs by taking damage from CV, dog fighting with enemy DD, and taking hails of fire from enemy CA/BB, you looked back and suddenly found that all your CA/BB teammates already turn back and ran away....you are alone without any support.  Worst your teammates cursing your are noobs or stupid to get kill so fast.

Then there are games in which I saw there are no support following me when I try to capture the points as all CA/BB stay far away from me, so I decided not to go capture points and instead try to move around and spot for enemy.  So guess what, teammates started cursing you are noobs, and if you do not go capture points, go delete all your dd.

The current meta for dd is that you will be targeted by CV at the beginning on the match.  If you are the only dd in the team and enemy CV is smart enough, they will keep sending planes to hunt you until you are dead so that enemy dd will have the advantage.  Once you are lucky of reaching the capture points, you will start hunting by CA radar while the enemy CV will keep sending planes toward you.  If none of your CA/BB are close to you for support, you are doom and all blame on you.

Need to start watching more YouTube on others how they deal with the current challenge with dd....

I pity you if you expected DD gameplay to be CBT Shimakaze levels of braindead "no-risk all-reward".

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I recently played a fair amount of Solo Fletcher to do the directives for destroyers (I believe it was either EXP or BXP).

Keep in mind my Fletcher is nothing special. I believe her winrate sits in the 60% range but average damage is sub 40k. I am also far, FAR from a destroyer main.

I found playing DDs is rather uh... easy as compared to pre-CV rework. This might come across as shocking, but having played a bit of rework CV, I watched the enemy aircraft on the minimap and sailed to locations with my team where I would generally not be expected instead of immediately capping. Turning off my AA also helped when it came to not being seen (Your AA fires far outside your ~2.something depending on DD air spotting range and can compromise your stealth). The rest was just played as usual, taking caps when I saw openings and planning escapes if necessary.

What I found was that often, my enemy counterpart DD would get himself killed in a silly way before I even needed to contest them, trying to rush a cap alone with poor situational awareness and often with their AA on, letting them get crippled by the opposing cruisers or carrier. I should add many DDs nowadays seem to forget to run Survivability Expert, despite it being a fundamental skill. And then the objectives would be free for me to take whenever the opportunity opened.

Once again, I'm not a unicum, I'm just giving my perspective on things.

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Well what I am trying to say here is that yes DD is hard to play during current meta, but the hardest is the expectation of your teammates, and the blames they are putting on you as a dd player.

I guess you need to be a "Thick Skin" and ignore the expectations and abuse from your teammates when playing dd for current meta....

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its in the end effort vs return vs possibility vs danger incurred and right now it is true that all these are not in balance for DD player, especially when they look at player in their BB, Super Cruiser , CV and even CA / CL ; and yet DD are asked to perform all the tactical duties with practically zero return with great danger always incurred and of course it do not help as OP stated, a team that made it very sure that you, the DD got to be the " one for all " and they made it very sure that when the time come, they would forget the " all for one " part

Edited by Mechfori

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32 minutes ago, Ryuuoh_DeltaPlus said:

I pity you if you expected DD gameplay to be CBT Shimakaze levels of braindead "no-risk all-reward"

a braindead one are those who get hit by it.

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Let's be honest. This game is hard unless you know every little detail in your head.

- Go play BB... and a slight overextend will get you roasted to death except if you eat torps before that happens.

- Go play cruisers... and a combination of precise aiming of the enemy ship & your terrible positioning/angling can send you down in one shot.

- Go play CV... and sending your squadrons into the heavy AA zone more than once by accident will render yourself useless, plus the salty reports after the battle ends, and the hectic service cost that bleeds your credits reserve more than the other classes, because you fail to deal enough damage due to the aforementioned mistake.

Seriously if this game is a school and you're the kind that only has B- as your highest score, you are either in a wrong class or in a wrong type of school.

 

Meanwhile few moments ago, someone posted that DDs are too OP. This is just a season full of irony I guess...

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I would say DDs have always been hard to play, not just in the current meta. The hardest would be RTS CVs. 

35 minutes ago, Sir_Feather said:

Let's be honest. This game is hard unless you know every little detail in your head.

Yup. WoWs looks simple on the surface but it actually has quite some depth to it. Doesn't help that the game has no proper tutorials and that a lot of the mechanics can't be read up in game. One has to turn to third-party sites like YouTube or the forums to learn about them.

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7 minutes ago, Thyaliad said:

The hardest would be RTS CVs.

Hardest but satisfying at the end of the day when you did your role correctly. 

Now, it is just a monotonous bothersome task.

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14 hours ago, Sir_Feather said:

Let's be honest. This game is hard unless you know every little detail in your head.

....

 

That is true , but here for OP, the problem had been DD is the only class that had no margin for error , whether you are CV, BB, CA, CL or Super Cruiser you had reserve and you had margin for absorbing some mistakes , no if you are in a DD .. DD used to had that in the form of Stealth which of course WG made it very sure you do not had it anymore and even less coming the change to upgrade ( when every Radar can be buffed even to keep you spotted longer ) , DD used to had it in speed but today you had plenty of cruisers and even BB that outrun you , and let's not try to compare speed of a DD vs planes. DD used to be able to between all that dodge but high speed guns, high velocity shells , machine gun / shoot gun CL / CA / even BB now made sure you no longer can do that too ( unless you are really far off ) , and the upcoming 0.9.1 change they just announced .. well they are saying they are going to buff everyone else with better upgrade but not you the DD, no your defensive capacity is not to be allowed ( AA Mod. 1 ), no your torpedo are not to be effective ( Torpedo protection mod ), no your torpedo must be less effective yet still (  Damage control mod 1 ), no DD must not be allowed their stealth ( all special upgrade now possible on all ships, so everyone open to longer duration Hydro, longer duration radar, longer duration spotting plane ) ...

Oh and as a cursory to you small guys WG will give you the option to mount Torpedo Tube Mod and the only real contributing bonus, +5% speed to your torp, but what's the point when now each and every one had the option to see your torp 1.8 / 2.24 KM out

You know after writing all these down I had to ask myself , why do I still play DD at all ?? I must be crazy , I think I am

Edited by Mechfori
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6 hours ago, Mechfori said:

 

That is true , but here for OP, the problem had been DD is the only class that had no margin for error , whether you are CV, BB, CA, Cl or Super Cruiser you had reserve and you had margin for absorbing some mistakes , no if you are in a DD .. DD used to had that in the form of Stealth which of course WG made it very sure you do not had it anymore and even less coming the change to upgrade ( when every Radar can be buffed even to keep you spotted longer ) , DD used to had it in speed but today you had plenty of cruisers and even BB that outrun you , and let's not try to compare speed of a DD vs planes. DD used to be able to between all that dodge but high speed guns, high velocity shells , machine gun / shoot gun CL / CA / even BB now made sure you no longer can do that too ( unless you are really far off ) , and the upcoming 0.9.1 change they just announced .. well they are saying they are going to buff everyone else with better upgrade but not you the DD, no your defensive capacity is not to be allowed ( AA Mod. 1 ), no your torpedo are not to be effective ( Torpedo protection mod ), no your torpedo must be less effective yet still (  Damage control mod 1 ), no DD must not be allowed their stealth ( all special upgrade now possible on all ships, so everyone open to longer duration Hydro, longer duration radar, longer duration spotting plane ) ...

Oh and as a cursory to you small guys WG will give you the option to mount Torpedo Tube Mod and the only real contributing bonus, +5% speed to your torp, but what's the point when now each and every one had the option to see your torp 1.8 / 2.24 KM out

You know after writing all these down I had to ask myself , why do I still play DD a all ?? I must be crazy , I think I am

Last night I unlocked the Gearing after much salt enduring. Excitement was had. Today I see these changes.  

WG obviously love the long range sniping meta.  Luckily the Yashima with her 510mm guns (Yes  no ship will ever have bigger guns than Yamato) is on the horizon.

DD removal from game almost complete. Just add the guided torp Submarines with infinite spotting power and its time for the after party.

2020 is the year of the DD.

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31 minutes ago, Tagnbag said:

2020 is the year of the DDeath.

There, fixed.

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Yes it can be hard and the skill floor is high. But its worth it if you can get good at it.

You play a important role for the team. And the small number of DDs makes it even more critical that you survive, at least longer than the enemy DD to equalise the spotting advantage.

 

People are far more likely to call you out for doing something questionable, than other classes.

Thats because they notice your presense, or lack of it, when they're looking for targets to shoot.

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If you want to watch youtube on how to play dd, i recommend channel "Destroyer KuroshioKai".

Not only he is a dd main, his video also giving an indepth explanation on why he took certain action .:fish_book:

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5 hours ago, Verytis said:

Yes it can be hard and the skill floor is high. But its worth it if you can get good at it.

You play a important role for the team. And the small number of DDs makes it even more critical that you survive, at least longer than the enemy DD to equalise the spotting advantage.

 

People are far more likely to call you out for doing something questionable, than other classes.

Thats because they notice your presense, or lack of it, when they're looking for targets to shoot.

you are right on almost all account, but the game mechanism practically never ever take these into account, reward is and really only cared for .. damage deal .. not your tactical deed, not your presence that deter enemy from pushing, not your torp that deny enemy entry into an Area , not your line screening , not your spotting even and the game made it very sure and likely even more so down the road that you are punished and penalized every step of the way ; danger must lurk around you and you are to be offering on the plate for others ( when you as a DD player sees that your big guns, fast CA, Super Cruisers, CL all sitting in relative safety and yet rewarded for just sitting, sniping and farming ) ..

NO its not worth it ; that is the one part that you are wrong .... the reward do not reflect the hardship, the team do not deserve the service , the teammates even less and certainly in most cases these days deserve none of my respect , and that's why whenever I am playing my DD ; and see an actual person coming out of those hiding and actually support , push, formation, whatever I made it very sure I give the guy a compliment on the system ... its not always that they play so well that they deserve it , its just that the will to actually support and fight it deserve that ; all  in the face of todays big guns all doing what they do ... basically nothing other than hiding & farming

Edited by Mechfori

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14 hours ago, Sir_Feather said:

Meanwhile few moments ago, someone posted that DDs are too OP. This is just a season full of irony I guess...

DD's are both OP (in terms of their effect on the win) and the hardest class to play.  It is their difficulty to play well, the significantly higher consequences of mistakes compared to other classes, combined with their effectiveness at doing the things that heavily contribute to a win that fuel this apparent dichotomy.

The number one problem in this game right now as I see it is the difficulty in being effective as a DD for poor to average players.  The skill gap is too high, and this means that these not so skilled DD players are being less successful in their DD's, and often choosing to play other classes.  This creates a low DD population, which makes for a terrible meta because DD's have a number of absolutely vital roles.  In effect DD's do all the important jobs - spotting, screening, capping - while everyone else supports them in doing it.  Less DD's make a team's success highly dependent on 1-2 players, and make for more static games, since unscreened BB's rarely feel able to push, and capping contests create pressure and dynamism in the play.

This skill gap has always been there to some degree due to the fragility of the class, and ability to get punished for mistakes that would not kill or severely hamper other classes.  Now though, they have to deal with a proliferation of hydro, radar, and CV's that make life much harder for a DD than it used to be.  When subs come into the game they are likely to be the primary sub counter, which also adds another difficult and dangerous role to an already overloaded class, and that can only increase the skill gap.  

What needs to be done to solve this is to make DD's simpler to play.  I don't mean directly buffing them - buffs won't really change the skill gap - I mean simplifying mechanics so that lesser skilled DD players don't get punished so easily, and higher skilled players can't leverage the mechanics to their advantage as easily.  How to do that is a difficult question.  Automating some things that are currently controlled by the player would be the likely way to go, since the automation would improve the level of play for poor players, while giving highly skilled players less to work with. 

A parallel can be drawn with CV's, which had a debilitating skill gap problem pre-rework, but have a skill gap right where it should be (mid-pack) post-rework.  Things like automated fighters after dropping, automated combat air patrols, automated repair party for the ship itself, no direct control of the ship - they all simplify the class, and despite being unpopular with some, they are a very good thing for the game overall as they reduce the skill gap.

So for a DD you could introduce a level of automation with the AA, to help poor DD's with the CV interaction, since they'll often make poor AA choices.  Even having it off until commanded on would help a lot here in poorly skilled DD survivability.  You could give DD's last stand baseline to help DD's that don't have it while having no effect on better DD captains that always have it.  You could change the minimap to automatically indicate a radar range circle around an enemy ship with radar, and the same with a hydro boat, that comes up whenever that ship is spotted, and changes colour whenever a friendly ship detects the radar is active.  You could even have that circle obviously on the water like a smoke circle.  You could reduce the spotted time after firing for DD's, so they are less punished for their mistakes (since lesser skilled DD's will make these mistakes more).  These are just a few ideas of the top of my head, I'm sure others might have better or different ideas.

For the health of the game something does need to be done to reduce the DD skill gap.

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Great post Moggytwo.

For myself I would not really want to see dd play simplified. What I would like to see is for radar and hydro to be blocked by landmasses much in the way los is, I feel that this would go a long way to redressing the balance issues.

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DD drivers are an elite club of hardcases. It's a tough, dirty job no one else wants.

It's a perverse satisfaction: saving your team day after day, night after night ... not because they deserve it, but because you can.

Edited by Rina_Pon
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1 hour ago, Moggytwo said:

For the health of the game something does need to be done to reduce the DD skill gap.

That is only the start of it , DD are now deprived of both offensive and defensive capacity, making it easier to play do not remedy the said issue .. for them to be able to go out and do their job these capacity must be reinstated or if WG aim it to be just the support ship and do less fighting, then the game must be changed to reflect that, and reward likewise , so long the game do not reward DD players for difficult and dangerous duties that DD are asked to perform it instantly create a skill / play / effort / reward in-balance.

making Hydro and Radar unable to penetrate landmass would be the first one, making it so when DD are detected, and after initial minimap display only cooldown, it should be so that only enemy ships that are within both their visual acquisition range and the said DD's detection range should be able to target that DD else they should still only get the minimal display only. Smoke mechanism need real major change , since smoke by and large is still specified for number of charges and duration / cooldown balanced for the time when there is no radar, no long range hydro / secondaries, and no planes , this is a thorny issue cause to balance it so that it actually do perform its defensive duties then the smoke charge need to be numbered more with shorter  cooldown and likely for some longer duration ( read RN DD ), very part of it is the unlimited loiter time planes can had so long they do not deplete their attack waves , this is not only DD , but all surface ships. Simply put this is irrational and place undue advantage to plane spotting ( and then CV can keep sending planes that way and no ship can escape since planes are much faster ) ; we might need a re-think of the camouflage , the basic ones , not anything exotic, the -3% detection and +5% enemy shell dispersion universal for all ships clearly is not benefiting DD as they usually had to engage at close range when this slim amount just amount to nothing. The whole principle of a DD is to stay stealth and when spotted speed away and dodge .. so that -3%/+5 % might be, well,  consider it to be reverse effective for ship types, that is its by default that +3%/-5%  for BB but more effective for CA, then yet more effective for CL and then becoming very effective for DD ( say it should be in final form -6%/+10% ) and it should be very poor for CV , after all they had that hugh side profile .

There ae others but it only mean defensive capacity or at best allowing them to stay alive, hopefully long enough to carried out some of the work asked for ( provided they still had enough life left to do it )

if the DD are not given back their offensive capacity then there's still problems, cause simply put they are not allow the possibility to shoot back and even if they do they are not effective , WG pretty much admit that by all the new DD spec, Torp that need to run at 70 knots or more, torps that need to run 15 / 16KM, guns that had to had 8% / 9% fire chance and spec to fire 15KM , now tell me how can a Kagero do that , not especially with that turret transverse that's worse than a 203mm on a CA same tier. I've stated that before , if WG keep introducing this machine gun DD approach its just going to made the HE spamming even worse but then its the only way these DD can do any damage at all so can we blame them for doing that when everybody else are given their respective effective means to deal damage .. OK that's the part either DD are taken off the damage dealing duty and given support duty and then got rewarded for that, or if not then they must be given back their offensive capacity , like Torpedo that they can actually launch, and hit enemy at the range as the ranging are right now.

I've in previous discussion state that most Torp need significant buff to damage, speed, and range ( baseline being from T8 onward all torp should minimal go 10KM on spec and of course longer and deadlier for torpedo boats IJN & some )  and the 2 torpedo Captain skill is age old and simply outdated ; I do remember I propose for 2 point skill, Torpedo Crew Expertise , give -12.5% torpedo reload , +10% chance of torpedo tube incapacitated ; 3 point skill - Torpedo Engineering Expertise - give option to select on the fly 3 torpedo option : 3 for default as specified, 4 for +5 knots -20% range +0.1 km torp detection , and 5 for -5 knots +25% range -0.1KM torp detection , changing already loaded torpedo tube to alternative setting will require 10% of the full reload time of the tubes.

Such changes do not made playing DD easy but it does bring to them what's needed , at least to be able to actually play it instead of what's it now

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32 minutes ago, Rina_Pon said:

DD drivers are an elite club of hardcases. It's a tough, dirty job no one else wants.

It's a perverse satisfaction: saving your team day after day, night after night ... not because they deserve it, but because you can.

its true but these days my take is - I just don't care anymore, why even bother, yes I can , does not mean I should , especially when I see a team that only care to farm and not team at all , let's just all sit back and hurt each others dearly ..

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1 hour ago, Mechfori said:

its true but these days my take is - I just don't care anymore, why even bother, yes I can , does not mean I should , especially when I see a team that only care to farm and not team at all , let's just all sit back and hurt each others dearly

I play to win, and to not at least put some effort into that, is an insult to anyone in my team who shares that goal.

As a DD, I know I'm signing up for a important role when I enter the queue. And a nice thing is I can also decide who I want to provide spotting for.

I don't blame the team if they're a bit conversative. Its random battle and they can potentially become left alone and burned down if they can't disengage.

Does it give a proper reward? No. However I also have a higher element of control over myself.

If you say that you truly don't care, I think you should take a break from DDs.

 

 

1 hour ago, Moggytwo said:

For the health of the game something does need to be done to reduce the DD skill gap.

The easiest thing would be to have AA always fire if you're spotted, the "p" key should only prevent the AA from extending your air detection.

Its a micro-management that shouldn't be necessary. It'd be great help especially for less experienced players to not have to put up with it.

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55 minutes ago, Verytis said:

the "p" key should only prevent the AA from extending your air detection.

WG, get on this. A simple QoL improvement with no downside.

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On 1/15/2020 at 6:43 PM, Verytis said:

I play to win, and to not at least put some effort into that, is an insult to anyone in my team who shares that goal.

As a DD, I know I'm signing up for a important role when I enter the queue. And a nice thing is I can also decide who I want to provide spotting for.

I don't blame the team if they're a bit conversative. Its random battle and they can potentially become left alone and burned down if they can't disengage.

Does it give a proper reward? No. However I also have a higher element of control over myself.

If you say that you truly don't care, I think you should take a break from DDs.

 

 

The easiest thing would be to have AA always fire if you're spotted, the "p" key should only prevent the AA from extending your air detection.

Its a micro-management that shouldn't be necessary. It'd be great help especially for less experienced players to not have to put up with it.

I get your point, I play to win too, and if any of the team shown active or at least put effort into that I would be more willing to do my best to that goal, and even including sacrificing myself if needed, but unfortunately this now become more of a rarity than common occurrence, so often even right from start the whole team of guns from BB / CV all the way to CL ever do is rush for cover then aim to hide, sit, snipe and farm and always opt for others to go out and do the dirty job. Yes there is time that a DD can save the days and likely made up a fight or even win the game for the team but in these situations I must say; I had to ask myself, why go through all the suffering with little to no return , usually end up dead, little rewarded by the game when the  whole farming community back there just smiling for a victory over your long dead and sunk ship hull ; when I see that kind of game I tell myself, I come to play to win, but I also come to play for fun , there's no reason to agonize myself so others can had it when I had to suffer ... there's a difference between putting up a good fight ( even with a lousy team ) vs putting up a good fight but with your team just all waiting / wanting you to just do all the dirty jobs and then they can casually benefit from it and sadly its more likely the latter ones and some much worse.

That is when the part I had to tell myself, yes I could , I can, but I will not ... a Victory is not worth it when a victory anguish and agonize the hard working, but benefit and reward the lazy and cowardry. But that is how the game goes , I can choose between it or; I can choose to preserve my sanity .. as I've mentioned before they just do not deserve it and I do not care any more for a victory in these cases. All I ask is for the team to made an effort ; made an effort to try to win a fight ( sometime not even winning the game ) .. is that not the essence of this game - to fight a battle on the high sea -  and you are right I might had to recede from playing a DD or even this game as I go in and expect at least an effort put in to win the game by the team and by and large today that's missing. Indeed I am seriously considering that ; when it come that  my premium time expires ; I might just as well quit or at least significantly curtail my participation. At the very least I might just go playing Co-Op and Scenario only   

Edited by Mechfori

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