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Tagnbag

Rock-paper-scissors-lizard-SAP

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way way back in time, in the prehistoric WOWS there was a heavenly balance.

DDs that were fast and hard to detect. Cruisers that blapped those DDs. BBs that slowly pushed and tanked and put pain on the cruisers.

US DDs were gunboats for the brave, IJN DDS threw longer range peedz and were sneaky. US cruisers had fast guns while IJN had torps and slower  reloading hard hitting guns.  US BBs were slow and brawled, IJN could try to keep range and snipe.

One day something was spotted in the sky. Terror ! Tears ! But that's a story for another day.

Jump forward in time and a lot of identity has gone or crossed boundaries. US have an insane torp DD, IJN have insane gunboats. Cruisers have better torps than DDS and some can stealth fire them. Some BBS move faster than DDS and nobody want's to scratch their paint or be spotted by the sky terror. 

Beneath the waves looms more danger. But again, a story for another day.

Rock-paper-scissors became Rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock but has morphed again into Rock-paper-scissors-sad lizard-Spock-poison mist-Fully operational death star.

Somewhere in their lies SAP ammo. 

When SAP was first played with I was led to believe it was basically an explosive round with super penetration and no fire chance.  (or I missed something in the translation from sekrit briefing.)

After being beaten senseless a few times by the mighty Venezia I looked at the ammo and noticed the SAP round does even more damage than the AP.   So no fires but improved penetration AND more damage?  Am I looking at correct figures?

Is this by design or is there an issue? (No issue if you are sailing the Venezia im sure).

Im just asking because the cruisers that do not play well at evasive manoeuvers (read listing lazily to the left) are getting blapped through the nostrils.  Has the time come to retire my slower cruisers? No more reliance an a solid-ish bow and a bit of angling? Is it the year of super manoeuverable cruisers?

What are peoples thoughts on the current SAP? Is it making everyone run to the back of the map or hide behind islands? (Is joke you don't heff to be mad)

Should it be more like a strong IFHE or continue with more damage than AP (citadels aside)?

 

Remember WG cares about your feedback and the future of the game.  

Image result for rock paper scissors lizard spock

 

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16 minutes ago, Tagnbag said:

After being beaten senseless a few times by the mighty Venezia I looked at the ammo and noticed the SAP round does even more damage than the AP.   So no fires but improved penetration AND more damage?  Am I looking at correct figures?

Is this by design or is there an issue? (No issue if you are sailing the Venezia im sure).

It is by design. SAP does more damage than AP. This is probably intentional, otherwise there will be little reason to use SAP over AP. Don't forget that unlike HE, SAP can ricochet just like AP shells.

Apart from damage, the only real difference SAP has over AP is that its penetration value is fixed like HE, and that it cannot overpen. Also bear in mind the damage value can be deceptive, because you will almost never citadel with HE or SAP. So while SAP does a bit more damage than AP, there are moments when AP can do more damage than SAP via citadels.

As for my thoughts on SAP, I don't like it. The lack of fires really hurts when you are up against an angled BB.

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The balance was destroyed when gimmicks became common.

Cruisers burns BBs - Wooster, Smolensk, etc.

DDs blaps cruisers, and BBs - Harugumo, French DDs, etc.

If anything, SAP is more balanced than HE. Long reload, fixed pen value (cannot be improved with IFHE), and situational usages. Even long before SAP exists, HE-oriented ships have already broken the balance. Remember when the battle was already decided the moment you saw which team had more Atlanta/Belfast? Yup that was when the dark age came. Long before SAP, long before before the uber HE spammers like Smolensk

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Atlanta is more balance than payfast. While she has volume of fire, to make her work you needed IFHE, AFT, CE - 12 out of 19 points, and given she is usually designed for AA as well, you had to chose between BFT and DE. Plus she is fragile. 

Payfast otoh, mounted every known consumable at the time to create a zone denier and she wasn't that fragile. Smoke, then radar to fire out of smoke to chain with hydro. In effect, a DD death trap. The only thing it feared is radar and unless it was massively uptiered against USN cruisers, it had free reign at its tier. Smoke / radar should have been mounted on the same slot like all typical british cruisers.

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a very early sign of balance problem is many years ago when they give CL a smoke...

THEN 

CL have heal

THEN

DD have heal

THEN

BB have torpedo

THEN

CL have smoke

THEN

high seas cover with so many smoke to the level that RADAR implement to counter it

CL have radar

THEN

DD have radar

THEN

BB have radar

THEN

BB/CL have speed boost

....

...

..

what's next?

soon we'll gonna have BB and CV that have smoke, CV have heal/radar/speed boost, or BB that have 'main gun reload booster'

bla bla bla bla.....

 

catch my drift? 😛

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1 hour ago, PGM991 said:

soon we'll gonna have BB and CV that have smoke, CV have heal/radar/speed boost, or BB that have 'main gun reload booster'

Bb smoke only work if BB does not have huge smoke firing penalty. Considering how difficult it is for some people to get used to Italian cruisers smoke firing penalty, I don’t see BB smoke as a huge problem.

It would not surprise me if planes get the ability to drop smoke. But that’s more of a team play ability, so I would not expect it to be used effectively a lot of the time. Other than that, with CV’s survivability, they don’t need smoke, they’re hard to find anyway. If a CV smokes up, you can see their approximate location from the other side of the map.

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When do ARP ships get their gimmick? Supergravity Cannon and Klein Fields.

PS
If this happens, then I will encourage new players to play the good game that is wows. I will also play more low/mid tier games at T5 and 7. I definitely will not be using Kongo-sama to club seals.

Edited by dejiko_nyo

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Might be next on the lineup would be YAMATO 2199

When WG gone off only pleasing big guns player and submit to providing yet more OP spec and ships and without upping old ships spec to counter it , it practically break the game and as a DD main the most common request these days I got in game is either " Pls spot " or " DD go cap " which sadly most of the time I had to answer NO and in turn asked WHY ....

 

WHY ... cause the broken game mechanism and all the cruisers BB refusal to provide CLOSE support ; fire suppression ; AA cover and even less likely a PUSH themselves

 

Yes the game is broken by WG but its also broken by us the players too.

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5 hours ago, Sir_Feather said:

The balance was destroyed when gimmicks became common.

Because apparently without gimmicks, A certain line/ ship wouldn't feel interesting. 

3 minutes ago, Mechfori said:

WHY ... cause the broken game mechanism and all the cruisers BB refusal to provide CLOSE support ; fire suppression ; AA cover and even less likely a PUSH themselves

And what can a BB do when they push and find themselves in a flank with so many enemies? While DDs can turn around and hide behind an island quickly, BBs, can't do that. Especially IJN. 

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Why do you guys expect cooperation like a trained unit with random people. I had cooperation problems even with guys i've known for years on end. Infact , i did not expect my career to go as smoothly as a steamroll in this game :fish_haloween:.

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1 hour ago, mr_glitchy_R said:

Because apparently without gimmicks, A certain line/ ship wouldn't feel interesting. 

And what can a BB do when they push and find themselves in a flank with so many enemies? While DDs can turn around and hide behind an island quickly, BBs, can't do that. Especially IJN. 

A push does not mean lone wolf out there ; but if right from start Big Guns , Super Cruisers and plenty of CA hold this view that they always would not tank and fight it then that is the start of the end. With Armor , HP , and fire power to shoot back and yet still if its considered not OK to push then why on earth BB CB & CA expect DD & CL without all these to go alone and do it.

Push require a group ; and that had been so and still do. In the end the simple question is - will you fight it ; you talk about superior enemy force well DD face that ALWAYS and all we ask is if the team want that Cap ; want those spotting , want those screening then made it possible for us to do so ; give that CLOSE support ; do that fire suporession ; provide that AA cover ; drive off or kill that Radar ; machine gun CL and not just keep asking light force to go when all there is , is well nothing .. I state that if the guns do not themselves want the fight then do not ask others to - simple straight forward - don't tell me that's the DD thing or that's what teamplay need … when the game mechanism broke the balance and do not allow DD their Stealth Speed and Range the DD thing no longer hold and when guns refuse to support there is no teamplay at alll.

 

Edited by Mechfori
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3 hours ago, legionary2099 said:

Why do you guys expect cooperation like a trained unit with random people. I had cooperation problems even with guys i've known for years on end. Infact , i did not expect my career to go as smoothly as a steamroll in this game :fish_haloween:.

No I do not expect that but I at least expect the team to try . And right now most would not even TRY , not even the slightest chance , all I see is bunch of players all wanting just the farming not the fighting

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2 hours ago, Mechfori said:

Push require a group ; and that had been so and still do. 

want those spotting , want those screening then made it possible for us to do so ; give that CLOSE support ; do that fire suporession ; provide that AA cover ; drive off or kill that Radar ; machine gun CL and not just keep asking light force to go when all there is

And right now most would not even TRY , not even the slightest chance , all I see is bunch of players all wanting just the farming not the fighting

Regardless whether a BB or a CB is alone or in a group, they'll die faster eventually. With the additions of HE spamming ships, brawling with BBs are becoming irrelevant. Once your friendly BBs and cruisers die, it's just you alone in that flank, thinking why do I force them to push. 

We only ask you to spot to give us a glance where the enemy is. After you spot enemies, you can quickly retreat and stick to your allies for AA cover. Not to fight them in the first place. Your teammates needs longer decision making. 

 

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47 minutes ago, mr_glitchy_R said:

Regardless whether a BB or a CB is alone or in a group, they'll die faster eventually. With the additions of HE spamming ships, brawling with BBs are becoming irrelevant. Once your friendly BBs and cruisers die, it's just you alone in that flank, thinking why do I force them to push. 

We only ask you to spot to give us a glance where the enemy is. After you spot enemies, you can quickly retreat and stick to your allies for AA cover. Not to fight them in the first place. Your teammates needs longer decision making. 

 

I know what you getting to but hey , Radar , planes .... and enemy DD , spotting require to be in the open and that is why the DD require Close Support and Fire suppression .. its  a case of game mechanism breaking one thing then it breaks all. And right now the game, well, its got more than a single place broken .. very noticeably in this need to spot / go capping part ... DD are put in great danger without due reward and too many too OP and unable to be countered spotting mechanism the other side so DD going out to spot, to cap, to scout, become a prey , not a scout nor a vanguard ..

And that is why this request to spot or to cap or to do this or do that; simply do not work as stated, DD cannot just go out and do that , DD also need support, DD also are not immune to HE spamming , in fact worse cause HE and SAP simply decimate DD, and of course aerial rockets , and needless to say when there are Radar, long range secondaries and the like of Georgia out there it pretty much mean DD are excluded to a distance of something like 13KM ( you need to leave room for maneuvering ) and of course 13KM is way too far for spotting, screening, and scouting , but to get into that no man's land ( or should we say no man's water ) it mean the DD need to place itself in instant cross fire / Radar / Hydro / Aerial counter spotting and then you can guarantee focus fire from the other side right away .. and no DD not even the Soviet can really sustain such.

Like I've stated before if brawling is impossible for ships with armor, with HP, with guns that can shoot back and retaliate ; still finds it impossible to edge up front , then its the same for CL for DD .. conclusion , forget about asking them to go out and spot ; you are just dooming them to certain death or if they are lucky they lost what 2/3 , 3/4 of their health and then rest of the game they had to hide ... yes its tough but that's what its like when Secondaries can match and even out range a DD's guns ; Radar & Hydro that can penetrate landmass ; high lobbing guns that can shoot behind cover ; and machine gun ships that simply give us a nice rainbow of tracers. BB and Cruiser are not the only one getting that , in fact DD and CL get that even more cause we are usually having to be even more up close and personal and that put them in each and every enemy's gun range ( or we can choose to sit back just as all the big guns do )

So the saying is still the same ; made it possible for the light force to be able to do their duties, that mean suppressing those machine guns and Radar / Hydro, that means engaging their BB so the team's cruisers can actually support / engage their peer instead of running for life, and put the friendly Radar / Hydro up and among the group to provide early warning. And for the part provide AA ( which mean your AA ship had to be something like within 5KM of the vanguard )

Yes it require as I've mentioned a grouped up formation and it require people to fight for it by FORCE .. the current game meta no longer allow just waiting for scout and spot and then casually the guns chime in ... if not forcing as a group then there's no pushing at all and from a DD players POV .. well no sense dying for nothing ... so if support not there then no going out to spot, scout, screen or whatever. I do not blame the guns for not going up front , I just ask that if they want us up front to do something ( FOR THEM ) then first they had to made it possible by providing at least a measure of support .. and if they decide its not possible then just do not ask for the service cause you know its not possible ; and its not possible because WG made the game so , made the game mechanism so and most of all the guns themselves choose not to. The OP got a point, the whole chain of relation, once broken , breaks the game.

Edited by Mechfori

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27 minutes ago, Mechfori said:

I know what you getting to but hey , Radar , planes .... and enemy DD ,

Well if there are CVs in a game, you can just sit back and do another job while CVs do the spotting.

32 minutes ago, Mechfori said:

And that is why this request to spot or to cap or to do this or do that; simply do not work as stated, DD cannot just go out and do that , DD also need support, DD also are not immune to HE spamming , in fact worse cause HE and SAP simply decimate DD,

As a DD you can't kite and dodge incoming shells? 

40 minutes ago, Mechfori said:

I do not blame the guns for not going up front , I just ask that if they want us up front to do something ( FOR THEM ) then first they had to made it possible by providing at least a measure of support .. and if they decide its not possible then just do not ask for the service cause you know its not possible

And I as a BB player asked my teammates whether to push or not. If not I'll keep my distances from enemies. But sadly though, communication is very lacking in this server. Which makes it a lot harder to understand a situation of a battle. 

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One problem: A dd that spots earns poor returns. All thanks to the economics mechanics. Therefore dds do not have an incentive to spot when all the glory goes to the ships causing the damage.

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Many old game meta no longer remain, Kiting and Dodging only work at distance for DD these days when you had machine gun CL and DD and even CA and no less when one is spotted you can be sure the shells do not come from just one angle ; WASD dancing can do only so much , its not substitute for Stealth and of course while WG say DD are mean to play on Stealth they made it very sure these days that DD don't got it. DD had zero reserve health to absorb damage so the notion to kite and dodge only work if the DD practically work at extreme range and that range is like the previously stated 13Km or longer and that of course is no use for spotting and scouting at all. And yes of course if CV are around we can ask the CV to do it but again how many CV do that .. you can bet most of the time their plane just go out doing their own farming and hunting, aerial spotting usually only happen to be provided at the very early stage of the game and that's simply a by product that every ship being much slower than plane and no way to avoid detection. DD are so frequently still asked to go out and spot even if the flank is saturated with enemy planes, most of the time because the team's CV decide the plane is to be used on the other flank ( where there is usually less resistance so the planes can roam free and farm )

Communication is indeed a big ? on this server ... often time even I announce before hand what I am going to do I can see team doing nothing towards any sort of team work, some of the time its language, some of the time its other player simply ignoring the chat, and unfortunately many times its players just selfishly not wanting to be in any fight at all ( seen that too many time when I see ships intentionally sailing away from engagement )

and of course no , spotting earn practically nothing at all, and nor do screening, area denial, scouting, just practically most of the so call DD thing that the team ask the DD to do earn DD nothing but put the DD in danger of all sort .. its not hard to tell why DD players are having negative incentive to play the DD play or even team play at all

Edited by Mechfori

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