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NJ_Celles

I hope they don't change Italian cruisers into carbon copies of other cruiser lines.

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I'm grinding the pasta ship line, and the line is a breath of fresh air from my main IJN cruiser line. 

Pasta ships don't play like all other cruisers. They aren't firestarters of course, so BBs are among the lowest priority lists for guns. But with a pasta ship, I threaten mostly destroyers and other cruisers simply because SAP hits so hard on destroyers while pasta ships can easily dodge cruiser and BB shells with WASD. 

And those torpedoes with slow speed, long ranges, and short reloads allow me to flood an area with lots of torpedoes. If I would have my way, I'll make the torps a little more slower so they stay in the water for far longer. 

I'm looking forward to the Venezia's torpedoes. With a full torpedo reload build, I'll have 54 torp reload with each torp staying in the water for 7.7 minutes total (I computed for it). By the 54th second, I'll drop torps again and the initial torpedoes are only about approaching halfway their total range. Talk about a creeping wall of damage. 

With IJN cruiser torps I can't do the same thing. IJN torps are indeed long ranged, but they travel fast and reload slowly-- too fast and too slow of a reload to replicate RM torpedo work. If I'm in an IJN I would firespam against BBs and load AP against cruisers, which is almost standard for all other cruisers of other nations except possibly some RN cruisers. But the pasta ships have a completely different playstyle from all the rest; IJN torpedoes are more powerful indeed, but it's much more limited in use. 

I also desire to exploit RM shell dodging abilities to the greatest extent. Repeat successful shell dancing in front of the enemy is a strange kind of pleasure. And if it's just too much shellfire, then I'll pop the Italian magic trick and disappear in a poof of smoke. 

I hope they don't change the RM cruisers into another IJN or RN line. There's no need to turn the RM into another one of those lines when those lines already exist. 

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You’re probably in the minority, a lot of people don’t like the line much.

You seem to be able to make the ships work for you, a lot of people can’t say the same.

You’re probably safe though, I doubt WG will change the main features of the ship, as much as people may like them to.

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I wish they could also see how hard SAP hits on any superstructure. 

BB's can be hurt badly by pasta ships this way.

 

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1 hour ago, NJ_Celles said:

simply because SAP hits so hard on destroyers

Well, yes, the SAP is the most effective ammo against DD's, in my experience. However, for a DD hunter, I'd like to see hydro.

I don't mind the older Italian premiums, Duca and Abruzzi, both have HE and accurate guns, allowing a more conventional cruiser playstyle.

Up to Trento the tech-tree ships are distinctly underwhelming and even Zara is certainly no star performer. It is hard to do decent damage and have an impact on the game.

I have gotten used to the Italian smoke grinding the 2020 missions using Gorizia. The smoke is a nice gadget and it helps a little, but the duration is too short and the fire-in-smoke penalty too severe to make Italian smoke a real advantage.

There is a special Italian captain, Sansonetti, his Expert Loader with 75% reduction is very useful. If you don't have that captain already, I would suggest you put him in your favourite Italian cruiser. The fast switching SAP/AP makes a difference.

From experience from the past, I would expect that WG leaves the major characteristics in place, ie the line will keep the "national character". There may be a bit of balancing happening here or there.

 

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20 minutes ago, PeterMoe1963 said:

Up to Trento the tech-tree ships are distinctly underwhelming and even Zara is certainly no star performer. It is hard to do decent damage and have an impact on the game.

I have gotten used to the Italian smoke grinding the 2020 missions using Gorizia. The smoke is a nice gadget and it helps a little, but the duration is too short and the fire-in-smoke penalty too severe to make Italian smoke a real advantage.

There is a special Italian captain, Sansonetti, his Expert Loader with 75% reduction is very useful. If you don't have that captain already, I would suggest you put him in your favourite Italian cruiser. The fast switching SAP/AP makes a difference.

It should have been HE and SAP as ammo choices. My view stands and will still stand: Pasta cruisers are only good if they are top tier. My Venice Beach performs fairly well with the Italian captain. Oh wait. It is Top Tier. Pasta cruiser's worse nightmare? Any ship bow on. You have nothing that can handle that. Other ships? Switch to HE.Throw in the painful reload and .... it cannot be described. I played one Trento and one Duca game over the weekend on the same op. Duca is already one of my least favourite ships. AND I CAN SAY IT IS FAR SUPERIOR TO THE TRENTO

Agility? IJN cruisers have it. The moving smoke gimmick? Like you put it, 'nice to have' but you can only get one good shot out and then you have to make plans to bail out. When op finally has a bigger fleet, he will realise how underwhelming the pasta cruisers are after playing the other nations. I think you know what I'm saying...

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3 minutes ago, NJ_Celles said:

I wish they could also see how hard SAP hits on any superstructure. 

Well, 5k per salvo, in my experience. And that is rather *only* on the superstructure because SAP bounces fairly easily and so does Italian 150mm AP.

Happy you enjoy the Italian cruisers.

 

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4 minutes ago, dejiko_nyo said:

It should have been HE and SAP as ammo choices.

Not too sure about that one... against other cruisers not having AP is a severe disadvantage. Would be an interesting experiment.

5 minutes ago, dejiko_nyo said:

Pasta cruiser's worse nightmare? Any ship bow on.

Yes, agreed. Even a DD bow on is not an easy kill.

Firing 150mm HE at 6 or 7 seconds reload at a bow-on DD is much more effective than SAP at 12 seconds reload.

6 minutes ago, dejiko_nyo said:

Duca is already one of my least favourite ships. AND I CAN SAY IT IS FAR SUPERIOR TO THE TRENTO

You seem to not see Trento much in the top half of the XP table, in my experience. Just not a good ship.

7 minutes ago, dejiko_nyo said:

When op finally has a bigger fleet, he will realise how underwhelming the pasta cruisers are after playing the other nations. I think you know what I'm saying...

Yes, totally. When I first started to play, I started grinding IJN DD's and the Fubuki was for a long time one of my favourite ships because it was my first T6 and I had a fair few good games driving her. Now I can see that Fubuki is nothing to write home about, even compared with other IJN DD's.

 

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4 minutes ago, PeterMoe1963 said:

Yes, totally. When I first started to play, I started grinding IJN DD's and the Fubuki was for a long time one of my favourite ships because it was my first T6 and I had a fair few good games driving her. Now I can see that Fubuki is nothing to write home about, even compared with other IJN DD's.

When I first started, it was stealth and speed IJN vs dakka dakka USN. Now IJN line has been superceded by other dds, and there are other hunter dds out there and tons of radar to make your life miserable. Now if you ask me to play IJN, I find it hard to justify given there are better choices.

 

7 minutes ago, PeterMoe1963 said:

Not too sure about that one... against other cruisers not having AP is a severe disadvantage. Would be an interesting experiment.

Yes and no. The exceedingly long reloads is a disincentive to switching ammo. Unless you can clone the italian captain for every ship. All they had to do was play with the alpha numbers, fire chances on existing ammo and you would have something useful. But as we all know, "must have gimmick" in a new line.

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Well OP has nothing to worry about. Once WG has released a line it is unlikely they will make big changes to it.

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23 minutes ago, Thyaliad said:

Well OP has nothing to worry about. Once WG has released a line it is unlikely they will make big changes to it.

*cough*cough*CV"REWORK"*cough*cough*

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41 minutes ago, dejiko_nyo said:

*cough*cough*CV"REWORK"*cough*cough*

Nah, I don't see people crying and yelling about Italian Cruisers being overpowered or how they completely dictate the match or whatever. :Smile_teethhappy:

The only instance I remember is actually pre-rework, when WG decide to balance out the USN CVs by removing their Air Superiority loadout and giving them the choice to mount AP bombs instead of HE.

Edited by Thyaliad

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2 hours ago, dejiko_nyo said:

Agility? IJN cruisers have it. The moving smoke gimmick? Like you put it, 'nice to have' but you can only get one good shot out and then you have to make plans to bail out. When op finally has a bigger fleet, he will realise how underwhelming the pasta cruisers are after playing the other nations. I think you know what I'm saying...

That's a bit odd, since I've always seen IJN cruisers take hits from shell dodging Pastas, but the opposite isn't true. 

Pastas almost always dodge IJN shells, and almost every other shell of every other nation (looking at you Amalfi). 

German cruisers? Dodged.

US cruisers? I'm being Neo right in their face. (And I'm Neo in a Trento in front of a fire spitting Dallas.) 

As long as the shells are high and slow, which are most shells, Pastas will just shell dance incoming fire. 

Pastas also have a longer range than IJN and others starting from Trento at +16 km range. Firing at Pasta cruisers at that range is almost a guaranteed waste. WASD means that they will just dance beneath the shell. 

Pasta smoke is hardly meant for almost any offensive action. It's meant for escape, emergency obscuration of teammates, and vey rarely, obscuring movement towards an offensive position. 

On most accounts, Pastas are mid-range to long-range cruisers that spam slow torpedoes endlessly thereby locking down an area from opponents. Pastas aren't close range fighters; even IJN cruisers are better than Pastas due to faster reloads, and more numerous and faster torps. 

Except for enemy CV actions, a Pasta can actually menace an area without any team support. Being difficult to hit, having great range and armed with a fast reloading yet slow moving torpedo armament with great ranges plus Italian Smoke allows Pastas to act as an area denial ship. 

The way things are, Pastas will be OP if they have HE. SAP appears to be a much needed balancing aspect that isn't overpowered yet neither necessarily underpowered. With shell dancing, range, smoke, and long ranged-fast reload slow torps, an HE armed Pasta ship is an ultimate slow death. It's good that it doesn't have HE. 

Let's give SAP to the Pastas and reward the sharpshooting Pasta players. Pasta cruisers aren't ships you can take chances with; Pasta cruisers are unforgiving of mistakes. 

Also, I am warm to the fact that SAP doesn't start fires. BBs very often underestimate sharp SAP shots to superstructures, and so they ignore repeated 6k - 7k damage shots from SAP imply because it is not HE. 

That doesn't mean Pastas have no weakness -- the weakness are glaringly obvious. Slow gun reload, not quite above average armor, limited smoke, no radar, dfaa, or hydro, and no HE dot means that pastas cannot utilize the strategies used by almost every other cruiser line. 

But those aren't reasons to dismiss the line's strengths. 

 

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All comment about how bad pasta cruiser is they all shit on low tier. its never about entire line

Brindisi and Venezia is Fine and Fun line. the rest was pile of garbage

Edited by humusz
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1 hour ago, Thyaliad said:

Well OP has nothing to worry about. Once WG has released a line it is unlikely they will make big changes to it.

You're right, but there are exceptions.  The launch day massive gun bloom penalty nerf of KM DD's was pretty phenomenal.  PA DD's are the ones that have taken the most hurt though, with a huge smoke nerf for the whole line a while after release, and of course the biggest nerf in WoWS history being applied to the Yue Yang, followed by a nerf to Chung Mu since it became better than YY in almost every respect.  RN BB's have taken some pretty serious hits since they were released as well.

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28 minutes ago, humusz said:

Brindisi and Venezia is Fine and Fun line. the rest was pile of garbage

Remind me what tier are they again? The top 2 IIRC? What was that rule again about them again? Oh yes, as long as they are top tier, they perform. :Smile_trollface:

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3 minutes ago, dejiko_nyo said:

Remind me what tier are they again? The top 2 IIRC? What was that rule again about them again? Oh yes, as long as they are top tier, they perform. :Smile_trollface:

There has been a bit of an issue lately where the lower tiers for new lines have been bad to meh.

French DDs and Italian CAs basically (Russian BBs have been at least OK all the way though, and the less said about CVs in general, the better).

Both lines have been pretty poor up until T8ish, where they really start to come in to their own.

Now, they're not the first lines to do that, with significant differences in performance and playstyle between low and high tier (such as UK BBs), but most lines have one or two good ships in them, sometime before T8, and even then, most ships are workable.

With the two newest lines, it feels like they've shoehorned in these gimmicks, but the gimmicks really don't work well until T9 &10. So until then you're left with a gimmicky ship that doesn't really work.

Unlike, say, the UK CLs, which, while they have gimmicks, still work well enough at low level (or at least from T6 up).

 

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50 minutes ago, dejiko_nyo said:

Remind me what tier are they again? The top 2 IIRC? What was that rule again about them again? Oh yes, as long as they are top tier, they perform. :Smile_trollface:

Same with Fr DD basicly. Flamu impresion on Brits CA also indicate that lower tier was shit, except for 1 premium that have smoke - I forget which one

 

Thats concerning trend, so you forced to push to TX, instead of enjoying the journey - and Then WG complain that low tier was scarce (if lower tier ship is shit, would you revisit it ? most would chose to skip it) 🤣

Edited by humusz

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5 hours ago, Thyaliad said:

Nah, I don't see people crying and yelling about Italian Cruisers being overpowered or how they completely dictate the match or whatever.

The CV rework was an example that several lines were changed completely. This means there is precedence for major changes.

Fair enough, unlikely this kind of rework will happen to the Italian cruisers, but the way you argue is strange. Can you not say what you want to say without twisting what people say? You have a strange way of quoting and then twisting what people say.

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7 hours ago, dejiko_nyo said:

The exceedingly long reloads is a disincentive to switching ammo.

Unless you have the Sansonetti captain, of course 😎

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51 minutes ago, PeterMoe1963 said:

The CV rework was an example that several lines were changed completely. This means there is precedence for major changes.

Fair enough, unlikely this kind of rework will happen to the Italian cruisers, but the way you argue is strange. Can you not say what you want to say without twisting what people say? You have a strange way of quoting and then twisting what people say.

I think my attempt at humour failed and the message was lost somewhere.

Because that was indeed what I was trying to imply - that the CV rework was a special change as a result of a very unique set of circumstances. And Italian cruisers are nowhere in the same situation as CVs were.

Though your point about the CV rework setting a precedent is a fair one, and is actually one of the reasons I was against the rework and in favour of just tweaking the RTS model.

I hope that cleared things up a bit.

Edited by Thyaliad

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