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dejiko_nyo

State of Community vs wg

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This reddit post basically sums up what I feel the situation is. This guy has save me a lot of time trying to write a reply.

 

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Whoever wrote it all down, he/she scored a citadel hit to this burning ship.

Indeed the problem with PR is not how expensive it is, but rather the fact on how WG lied to the community. And the fact WG blames it on someone who added the "creative addition" proves that WG will do anything to save face as long as they don't have to give refund or sacrifice their income by nerfing the crazy directives although both options might have worked better than whatever WG is doing right now.

Edited by Sir_Feather
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Fundamentally I no longer think that Wargaming cares about community feedback if they can meet their monetary goals. And I've seen enough apologists for this utterly shameful display to know that there are enough whales out there who will pay.

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The thing that irks me most is not the fact that they are charging for a ship, but the hypocrisy and deception from both wg and the community that is plaguing things.

I for one do not care if wg puts every ship whether balanced or not in the premium shop. Hell, they should be selling steel in the premium shop. They can seasonally limit the ships in the shop which they are already doing. As people have pointed out, the silent majority/minority out there will grind/pay for their PR. Paraphrased: "this event is for the <1% of players". People have called out that money is the motivating factor for this PR event. The issue I see is that there are so many double standards being applied from both sides. "New content" is frankly a lie; it only serves to satiate the "1% of players" that clamour for all this. 

And now they have another mess on their hands with the "refunds" given that their method of refunding is not acceptable across many jurisdictions. Honestly, the simplest thing to do was to either remove or lengthen the time gate. People WILL still spend money on getting the ship as already evidenced by D1 appearances. Even the rubbish bin, one of our forumers whaled it on D1 to demonstrate the futility of the concept.

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2019 is the worst year (yet) for big - very big video game companies. While the indie devs and smaller companies are getting rich.

EA, Activ, Bethes, WeeGee, etc. All of them are sliding down this very slippery slope. Joyfully, even.

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Shame on you WG! I was just in an obviously rigged match. I will be playing for 27 days once that premium time is gone so am I. I walked from WoT/WoWP for 6 years? I only came back because a colleague recommended WoWS. SHAME! SHAME! SHAME! 

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WG needs to admit they have a PR problem, and not put out sorry, not sorry nonsense apologies.

The way I see it, WG messed up and hyped up the Puerto Rico and Dockyard and made it sound like it was for everybody when the real star of the event should have been Gorizia.

It doesn't help that some of the CCs hyped things up even further by stupidly going off PTS numbers. What's worse is that WG didn't correct those misconceptions.

In fact, the whole thing is just one big complicated mess. The fact that WG had to release their spreadsheets in order for players to plan the schedules and booster purchases attests to this. I am very sure plenty of people got suckered into buying a booster or two thinking it would help, only to realise they are not going to complete the PR anyway.

It is one big mess after another. WG created a shitty and poorly explained event and hyped it up to no tomorrow. CCs hyped it up even further with bad information. WG doesn't correct them. Come launch players are angry that they are misled. WG has surprised Pikachu face that everybody is expecting the PR. Hmmm, I wonder why WG. I wonder why...

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3 minutes ago, Thyaliad said:

WG needs to admit they have a PR problem, and not put out sorry, not sorry nonsense apologies.

The way I see it, WG messed up and hyped up the Puerto Rico and Dockyard and made it sound like it was for everybody when the real star of the event should have been Gorizia.

It doesn't help that some of the CCs hyped things up even further by stupidly going off PTS numbers. What's worse is that WG didn't correct those misconceptions.

In fact, the whole thing is just one big complicated mess. The fact that WG had to release their spreadsheets in order for players to plan the schedules and booster purchases attests to this. I am very sure plenty of people got suckered into buying a booster or two thinking it would help, only to realise they are not going to complete the PR anyway.

It is one big mess after another. WG created a shitty and poorly explained event and hyped it up to no tomorrow. CCs hyped it up even further with bad information. WG doesn't correct them. Come launch players are angry that they are misled. WG has surprised Pikachu face that everybody is expecting the PR. Hmmm, I wonder why WG. I wonder why...

A demand for the implementation of the "Mini-Montana" CA-2D project has existed long before PR were offically teased (you can search for the term CA-2D) and I clearly remember the heated hype for this Xmas-New Year, Puerto Rico's long anticipated arrival and the dockyard back then before this ongoing December shitstorm.

It reminds me of the famous White Album 2 meme.

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16 minutes ago, Project45_Opytny said:

A demand for the implementation of the "Mini-Montana" CA-2D project has existed long before PR were offically teased (you can search for the term CA-2D) and I clearly remember the heated hype for this Xmas-New Year, Puerto Rico's long anticipated arrival and the dockyard back then before this ongoing December shitstorm.

It reminds me of the famous White Album 2 meme.

And WG made it worse by implying it would be for everybody.

Though tbh I don't think many people outside of Americans will be that excited about getting yet another supercruiser (and a paper one at that).

Imo people were more excited about the Dockyard and idea of working towards a free Tier 10, not so much the ship itself.

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needless to say WG will had many very disappointed customers and when they are disappointed, its very likely that they will not spend money and likely not spending any down the road for at least quite some while ... so in the end , WG lost the forest for axing that one tree

Edited by Mechfori

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41 minutes ago, Thyaliad said:

WG needs to admit they have a PR problem, and not put out sorry, not sorry nonsense apologies.

Well they do have a public relations problem, but that's not the main reason why this whole Puerto Rico thing has become such a big deal.  S_O apologised for not communicating the size of the grind properly, and that definitely was a major problem, but the primary issue is the monetisation practices that WG have used in this event.  They used to have quite reasonable monetisation practices, where you paid money to get something quite clear, and it was all very straight forward.  Increasingly they are starting to use behavioural psychology techniques to attempt to get people to spend money when they otherwise may not have.  The PR event takes this to the next level - players have been lulled by the apparent ease of the grind that was communicated by CC's and not corrected by WG, and also from the minimising language used in the PR event web page (it's entirely possible to get PR for free, simply complete the directives), into starting a grind that many have little to no chance of completing even when using boosters to (in a player's mind) make it relatively easy.  When the end of the grind is in sight and it suddenly becomes clear to players that despite all the money and time they have put into PR, they will not actually receive the ship, then they have to spend more money to complete, or face the complete loss of all the time and money they have already put in.  This is an unacceptable position in which to put the players of your game!

These sort of practices do not reflect well on WG.  They have been progressively adding this sort of thing over the last year, and I think it's a completely unacceptable way to monetise your game.  I think using behavioural psychology techniques to effectively trick people into spending more money than they want to is bordering on a con.  This is why people are angry, especially those that have spent money already on effectively nothing since they have no chance of ever getting the ship.

I personally am quite happy to spend money on the game, and would likely have paid a bit of money to make for an easyish grind to PR even though I have no interest in the ship, just because the dockyard feature looked interesting, and you got other bonuses on the way.  These sort of practices make me actively avoid events like this however, and I will be perfectly happy to just get the meagre free rewards from the event with no effort spent grinding at all above my usual play level.

If WG learn one lesson from this entire debacle, it's that they need to sit and rethink the way they monetise their game.  They need to turn away from these techniques and go back to a more straight forward monetisation system that does not try to prey on their players.  If they don't learn their lesson, then they will actively turn players from their game, and their reputation will slide rapidly (as it has in the last week).

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11 minutes ago, Thyaliad said:

And WG made it worse by implying it would be for everybody.

Imo people were more excited about the Dockyard and idea of working towards a free Tier 10, not so much the ship itself.

The concept of shipbuilding dockyard should be no more than merely for educational purposes. WG can just make an interactive cinematic showing how a ship is being build and also combine that with a narrative. This way, players will know how a ships is being build especially the making of armaments in a warship. I feel so bad for the art department for doing this. They made a good animation for the dockyard only to receive dislikes and disappointments.

Every problems that WG faces these years boils down to money and profits. If they can forget those two things and had more times to decide, this event would be 10/10.

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1 hour ago, Thyaliad said:

Imo people were more excited about the Dockyard and idea of working towards a free Tier 10, not so much the ship itself.

You reckon it'd be better if it's a tech tree T10 (preferably, of choice) instead of a T10 premium? :Smile_trollface:

 

EDIT. No, it isn't. All tasks need to remove a zero off the requirement just to justify a T10 tech tree.

Again, this 'Shipbuilding' thing is better if it's a permanent thing instead of a time-gated event.

EDIT 2. It'd be so funny if WG release this ship as an Arsenal ship ~1 year later.

Edited by Paladinum

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49 minutes ago, Moggytwo said:

Well they do have a public relations problem, but that's not the main reason why this whole Puerto Rico thing has become such a big deal.  S_O apologised for not communicating the size of the grind properly, and that definitely was a major problem, but the primary issue is the monetisation practices that WG have used in this event.  They used to have quite reasonable monetisation practices, where you paid money to get something quite clear, and it was all very straight forward.  Increasingly they are starting to use behavioural psychology techniques to attempt to get people to spend money when they otherwise may not have.  The PR event takes this to the next level - players have been lulled by the apparent ease of the grind that was communicated by CC's and not corrected by WG, and also from the minimising language used in the PR event web page (it's entirely possible to get PR for free, simply complete the directives), into starting a grind that many have little to no chance of completing even when using boosters to (in a player's mind) make it relatively easy.  When the end of the grind is in sight and it suddenly becomes clear to players that despite all the money and time they have put into PR, they will not actually receive the ship, then they have to spend more money to complete, or face the complete loss of all the time and money they have already put in.  This is an unacceptable position in which to put the players of your game!

That's why I said the event was poorly explained. If people knew what they were getting into, they wouldn't spend doubloons on useless boosters. Whether you suspect WG intentionally left things vague to exploit such players is not what I am talking about here, and it is up to WG to address such suspicions.

As for WG's predatory monetisation, well I am more upset at lootboxes and gambling that WG has stuffed into the game. But it seemed that the general playerbase is fine with lootboxes and gambling and I was alone in my outrage.

So if anybody is wondering why I don't seem as outraged as others, it is just that when I grabbed my pitchfork last time nobody joined me, and it has gotten kinda heavy carrying it since then so I have put it down. I will still call out WG though.

45 minutes ago, Paladinum said:

You reckon it'd be better if it's a tech tree T10 (preferably, of choice) instead of a T10 premium? :Smile_trollface:

If it was a tech tree T10 people will just say screw it and grind it up the normal way. Though of course some people will accuse WG of cash-grabbing by allowing people to literally pay to skip their grinds.

Either way it is a no-win situation. Sell a T10 Premium? People complain about WG being greedy. Make a T10 Premium easy to get? Omg WG is allowing noobs to flood the high tiers. Lock the T10 behind Steel or Coal? WG is punishing new players and only rewarding veterans.

Solution? Stop making T10 premiums WG.

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Lesser of evils: Premium T10. Actually, freexp T10. You can buy the freexp or work the freexp. The mechanics are already there. It is just they are listening to the wrong segments of the community for ideas. 

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Just now, Thyaliad said:

Either way it is a no-win situation. Sell a T10 Premium? People complain about WG being greedy. Make a T10 Premium easy to get? Omg WG is allowing noobs to flood the high tiers. Lock the T10 behind Steel or Coal? WG is punishing new players and only rewarding veterans.

 Solution? Stop making T10 premiums WG.

T10 Arsenal premiums are fine. They don't even earn extra! You have to put in some dedication to the game, which potentially increase the chance of you paying WG. The "WG is punishing new players and only rewarding veterans" is a worthless argument to me. Veterans deserve the right for more rewards (not better rewards, mind you).

There must be a requirement of some sorts to prevent completely new players to buy their way into T9/10. Like number of battles with T9/10 ships, avg. damage with T9/10 ships, etc. Also T8 premiums.

 

Just now, dejiko_nyo said:

It is just they are listening to the wrong segments of the community for ideas. 

Either they do NOT actually listen or they listen to them but implement the ideas through some unholy execution. Cases in point: Naval Trash Cove/Rubbish Burnheap and Payto Rico.

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4 minutes ago, Thyaliad said:

That's why I said the event was poorly explained. If people knew what they were getting into, they wouldn't spend doubloons on useless boosters. Whether you suspect WG intentionally left things vague to exploit such players is not what I am talking about here, and it is up to WG to address such suspicions.

As for WG's predatory monetisation, well I am more upset at lootboxes and gambling that WG has stuffed into the game. But it seemed that the general playerbase is fine with lootboxes and gambling and I was alone in my outrage.

So if anybody is wondering why I don't seem as outraged as others, it is just that when I grabbed my pitchfork last time nobody joined me, and it has gotten kinda heavy carrying it since then so I have put it down. I will still call out WG though.

If it was a tech tree T10 people will just say screw it and grind it up the normal way. Though of course some people will accuse WG of cash-grabbing by allowing people to literally pay to skip their grinds.

Either way it is a no-win situation. Sell a T10 Premium? People complain about WG being greedy. Make a T10 Premium easy to get? Omg WG is allowing noobs to flood the high tiers. Lock the T10 behind Steel or Coal? WG is punishing new players and only rewarding veterans.

Solution? Stop making T10 premiums WG.

T10 Special ships (since they do not have improved income coefficient) should never be easy to get, they are T10 indeed and there have been complaints about how noobs with their shiny T8 premiums purchased on day one (like Atago or Tirpitz) ruining higher tier games. Also WG at least used to hold a rule that they would never directly sell T10 ships for cash.

I believe distribute through Free XP, coal or steel can be described as the Lesser evil: even for newbie, free to play players they can accumulate coal rather quickly via collecting More Resources daily containers every day (though this indeed requires constant daily gaming), while FXP can be exchanged with doubloons, at least one have to at least play a number of battles to farm Elite XP (even if they opted to generate XP with T4 boats). And steel ships can be more powerful and be reserved for those Sea Wolves. Done.

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29 minutes ago, dejiko_nyo said:

It is just they are listening to the wrong segments of the community for ideas. 

Or they listen to the community only when it suits them.

For example, the Guilio Cesare nerf by uptiering was actually a suggestion being floated around by some in the community. I distinctly remember some people in this very forum suggesting that Belfast be given the same treatment.

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46 minutes ago, Thyaliad said:

For example, the Guilio Cesare nerf by uptiering was actually a suggestion being floated around by some in the community. I distinctly remember some people in this very forum suggesting that Belfast be given the same treatment.

The only reason why the nerf was cancelled is the fear of the domino effect it would cause.

Nerf GC

Nerf Belfast

Nerf Kamikaze

and many more. (nerf Missouri's credit multiplier because why not?):Smile_trollface:

It would also bring negative impact on their sales of the premium ships because the players could no longer feel those ships to be worth their money as WG can nerf them anytime & how much they want, and get away with the bait-n-switch tactic.

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You cannot just simply nerf premium ships. As I have pointed out before, because you paid real money, you are expected to get the goods or services as advertised. See what is happening with the PR debacle. Dissatisfied customers can challenge it with their consumer protection agency (see what is happening with the German one with the current debacle). American players can say "whatever" as their consumer protection system isn't as stringent as Europe's. 

On top of this, as @Sir_Featherhas pointed out, is the cascade effect it potentially has. Why stop at one? Nerf the ship I don't like. What wg has to do is fix MM and the balancing system. Right now a ship has to be balance for 5 tiers, +2, -2 and its own tier. Of course it is going to be a mess especially when you want a ship to have a "gimmick" that is going to make it OP. Fix the core system and make things easier for yourselves wg. Instead you choose the complicated and messy path. 

Right now, everytime I see dissatisfaction, it is because wg is digging its own grave. Sure, you can charge people and make money, but think of the long term sustainability. As it stands, I can neither recommend nor encourage any new players to this game. Treat your player base properly wg. A little more sensibility and transparency in your decisions changes our recommendations.

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44 minutes ago, Sir_Feather said:

The only reason why the nerf was cancelled is the fear of the domino effect it would cause.

Nerf GC

Nerf Belfast

Nerf Kamikaze

and many more. (nerf Missouri's credit multiplier because why not?):Smile_trollface:

It would also bring negative impact on their sales of the premium ships because the players could no longer feel those ships to be worth their money as WG can nerf them anytime & how much they want, and get away with the bait-n-switch tactic.

It reminds me of an ongoing dispute about Smolensk, in a nutshell, some players demand a nerf to Smolensk. However it may be difficult. There has been a suggestion that make the nerf under the guise of a universal adjustment of banning T9~10 Soviet ships from equipping Range mods in their 6th slots. Dm. Donskoi works well with 17.8-km range and such a nerf would heavily limit possible captain builds for Smolensk.

By the way, can anyone prove a theory that Georgia has been secretly, or accidently nerfed from supercruiser dispersion to standard USN BB dispersion? I have came across such claims in Chinese-speaking community, but cannot and do not want to prove that by myself.

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Imo not nerfing Premiums is equally problematic as WG cannot adjust over-performing ships, regardless if those ships were released in an OP state or became that way due to meta changes.

And if WG removes those ships from sale, they will stick it in a Santa Crate anyway and make players gamble for it if they want it. Which imo is worse. 

It is worse if those ships are famous ships from history like Enterprise or Belfast, which still exists today as a museum ship you can visit.

Anyway my point was that WG will happily listen to the players if their suggestions benefit WG's greed. And in this case, not nerfing Premiums definitely does benefit them.

51 minutes ago, Project45_Opytny said:

It reminds me of an ongoing dispute about Smolensk, in a nutshell, some players demand a nerf to Smolensk. However it may be difficult. There has been a suggestion that make the nerf under the guise of a universal adjustment of banning T9~10 Soviet ships from equipping Range mods in their 6th slots. Dm. Donskoi works well with 17.8-km range and such a nerf would heavily limit possible captain builds for Smolensk.

Well the good thing is WG says it does not consider ships obtained by Coal or Steel only like Smolensk and Stalingrad as Premium ships, so they can be nerfed if WG deem it necessary.

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When WG was young, they asked the community for help and they assisted. So WG grew big (but not as big as those gaming giants in the US).

Somewhere along the line when WG grew big, so did their heads. And now have forgotten the community who helped them grow.

Eventually, WG will need the communities help for them to grow, but with it's current state and fiasco, many have said enough is enough.

 

It also feels like you should only say flowery words to get on WG good side. Any tiny spec of criticism, WG be like "Gasp! How dare you!"

Its becoming into something else, that it is no longer "fun". 😞

 

Lived a bit long enough to see the world turns. One moment you are on top, another you are in the bottom. It's how the world turns.

Mistakes will be made. How you get up from that mistake will determine your company's success and future.

Edited by S0und_Theif

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