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AnExtremelyWeakPlayer

So called american special AP shell angles are overestimated.d

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I am now playing Tier 7 American heavy cruiser New Orleans. While some people admire the special AP shells of American heavy cruiser, I find those shells are actually "Chickren Rid". Even though they do somtimes bounce less in contrast to other cruisers, they are not trustworthy because of their limitations.

First, the velocity of American shells are too slow for them to properly land on the targets. This does not only make aiming difficult, but also waste many valuable chances. Most cruisers can finish their rudder shift turning to make dodge movement or angle their bodies enough before the shells hit during the long flying period. 

Second, the lack of penetration ability lower the efficiency of the special autobounce angles. I used to hit directly at the citadel of some high tier cruiser and got only usual penetration or more commonly non-penetration at about 9 km. While dealing with light-armor one, I frequently get over-penetration. 

Third, their fragile armors do not allow American heavy cruisers to seek opportunities at close range since they can be easily sunk.

I use AP shells quite often on Germany cruisers like Hipper and York and they make some use. When I do the same on New Orleans, I feel disappointed. 

 

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43 minutes ago, AnExtremelyWeakPlayer said:

I am now playing Tier 7 American heavy cruiser New Orleans. While some people admire the special AP shells of American heavy cruiser, I find those shells are actually "Chickren Rid". Even though they do somtimes bounce less in contrast to other cruisers, they are not trustworthy because of their limitations.

First, the velocity of American shells are too slow for them to properly land on the targets. This does not only make aiming difficult, but also waste many valuable chances. Most cruisers can finish their rudder shift turning to make dodge movement or angle their bodies enough before the shells hit during the long flying period. 

Second, the lack of penetration ability lower the efficiency of the special autobounce angles. I used to hit directly at the citadel of some high tier cruiser and got only usual penetration or more commonly non-penetration at about 9 km. While dealing with light-armor one, I frequently get over-penetration. 

Third, their fragile armors do not allow American heavy cruisers to seek opportunities at close range since they can be easily sunk.

I use AP shells quite often on Germany cruisers like Hipper and York and they make some use. When I do the same on New Orleans, I feel disappointed. 

 

dont get disappointed at a New Orleans, is not a really good ship to begin with .

 

Now the true fun starts at Baltimore FOR ME, yeah the slow velocity aspect is there but you will get used to it 

Slow velocity allows you to shoot over island if you know where to find them mostly without getting detected

Baltimore and above allows you to bow tank less than or equal to 380mm caliber guns.

 

 

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Alright this is awkward...

57 minutes ago, AnExtremelyWeakPlayer said:

I use AP shells quite often on Germany cruisers like Hipper and York and they make some use. When I do the same on New Orleans, I feel disappointed

As a main KM CA/BB player, that statement really...feels weird. I found that while Hipper's AP really hurts, it tends to either ricochets or overpen. And when i played Balti on my friend's account, i feel it was somewhat better with more consistent pens against broadside or angled cruisers and battleships compared to Hipper's. 

 

Edited by Earl_of_Arland

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German and French AP often than not over pen ( unless you are playing DD ).. one had to be aware of the distance , and angling of enemy ships , and then of course the dispersion is .... hmm .. well we all know.  USS BB and Cruisers AP might not had that penetration depth and trajectory ; but overall its an easier casual play ( does not mean its better or worse, just different ). Italian AP is consistent and Italian SAP is consistently inconsistent ; that stated I suppose the RN cruiser get the worst not that their AP is really bad ( but its not that great with short fuse anyway ) but that they do not had a choice. In fact if you want the more consistent Cruiser CA , then look no further than your old motherland and what it had to offer ( Long Live the Czar )

Edited by Mechfori

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They're still dangerous when you start going into the mid range against them, especially with their USN high firerate flavour.

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3 hours ago, AnExtremelyWeakPlayer said:

Third, their fragile armors do not allow American heavy cruisers to seek opportunities at close range since they can be easily sunk.

If you aren’t island hugging in a USN cruiser you are going to die.  Unless you are bow on in a des Memes which can off you some prtotection

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Pretty Sure the US line doesn't get the super heavy AP shells until T8, that's when they get really good. Until then you are just less likely to get a ricochet at a somewhat angled target.

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40 minutes ago, RalphTheTheatreCat said:

If you aren’t island hugging in a USN cruiser you are going to die.  Unless you are bow on in a des Memes which can off you some prtotection

Pensacola and New Orleans can still be used as open-water fighters. USN CLs transformed into island-hugging since Dallas but CAs would change their play style only from Baltimore.

The ricochet angle means that AP shells can be used more "casually" by USN CAs as @Mechfori has commented: they are more tolerant to firing at angled targets. For the SHS ballisitcs of the higher-tiered ships, perhaps the only solution is to practice more and learn to island hug (or postpone grinding them indefinitely like what I have done).

4 hours ago, AnExtremelyWeakPlayer said:

the velocity of American shells are too slow for them to properly land on the targets

Personally speaking I have found the early 203-mm guns of American treaty cruisers have comparable ballistics with the venerable Japanese 203-mm rifles, though a little slower.

4 hours ago, AnExtremelyWeakPlayer said:

the lack of penetration ability

Perhaps this is related to the improved armour schemes of higher-tier cruisers. I have kept Pensacola for running T6 sceanrios and sealclubbing, and I have scored crippling citadel hits on enemy Furutaka and Dallas from a long range with relative ease.

4 hours ago, AnExtremelyWeakPlayer said:

their fragile armor

This is true, at least partically. Pensacola has been infamous for her squishyness and New Orelans, though boasts a much improved citadel belt, fares only a tad better. Also unlike Myoko (including her colorful clones), Yorck and Algerie, for example, in Operation Narai New Orleans is more vulnerable to Nicholas in contrast to the three cruisers listed before due to a lack of thicker midsection plating.

Though still squishy, New Orleans is much better to Pensacola in at least one criteria: your gun handling has a quality-of-life improvement. You won't outturn your guns, now the third upgrade slot can be reserved for the Aiming mod and they also reload faster. Even though you are still much a glass cannon, you are much more agile in contrast to Pensacola.

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5 minutes ago, blauflamme22 said:

Pretty Sure the US line doesn't get the super heavy AP shells until T8, that's when they get really good. Until then you are just less likely to get a ricochet at a somewhat angled target.

I feel that Pensacola and New Orleans already enjoy improved ricochet parameters. Also the two are by no means bad. When top tier, Pensacola devastates any other cruiser with her AP volleys.

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Well, the so called super heavy Murican AP is the MK-21 Shell. which is what you got when you Upgraded Baltimore gun

Before that, US CA use AP MK-18, which while still have US Trait of Better Normalization Angle. doesnt have Stellar Penetration compared to others at their tier.

 

when you get those Mk-21,  then its noticable diffrence

Baltimore, at 16km the Max Pen of MK-21 was like 180mm, while 203mm on Atago is only 130-ish mm, while Hipper around 140+ ish mm. MK-21 Shell and MK-18 Shell have Big Diffrence, and those Super Heavy praised Shell by community is the Mk-21 one - which you dont get yet :fish_haloween:

 

edit : its MK 19 not Mk-18

Edited by humusz
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11 minutes ago, Project45_Opytny said:

I feel that Pensacola and New Orleans already enjoy improved ricochet parameters. Also the two are by no means bad. When top tier, Pensacola devastates any other cruiser with her AP volleys.

No they are decent ships. New Orleans is a nice step up. The biggest problem they face is that recently it seems MM is throwing them into a lot of uptiered games. Grinding Pensacola recently I was thrown into games with mostly T8 ships 75% of the time. At its own tier it is very potent, uptiered it is essentially a target barge, since it lacks range, reload and armour and also isn't the most maneuverable

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3 minutes ago, humusz said:

Well, the so called super heavy Murican AP is the MK-21 Shell. which is what you got when you Upgraded Baltimore gun

Before that, US CA use AP MK-18, which while still have US Trait of Better Normalization Angle. doesnt have Stellar Penetration compared to others at their tier.

 

when you get those Mk-21,  then its noticable diffrence

Baltimore, at 16km the Max Pen of US Shell was like 180mm, while 203mm on Atago is only 130-ish mm. MK-21 Shell and MK-18 Shell have Big Diffrence, and those Super Heavy praised Shell by community is the Mk-21 one - which you dont get yet :fish_haloween:

Thanks for providing details, rather than my rather vague first still-waking-up post :Smile_veryhappy:

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13 minutes ago, blauflamme22 said:

Thanks for providing details, rather than my rather vague first still-waking-up post :Smile_veryhappy:

Old Baltimore is like T9,  and need 2 Upgrade if I remember. The torture was longer back then 🤣

Edited by humusz

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3 minutes ago, blauflamme22 said:

No they are decent ships. New Orleans is a nice step up. The biggest problem they face is that recently it seems MM is throwing them into a lot of uptiered games. Grinding Pensacola recently I was thrown into games with mostly T8 ships 75% of the time. At its own tier it is very potent, uptiered it is essentially a target barge, since it lacks range, reload and armour and also isn't the most maneuverable

Well that's up to many factors including one's own skills and how the enemy responses.

There do exist instances like a bottom tier player managed to come top of the scoreboard (with some even more extreme cases involved fail-divisioning) and when the game ends one may find out "what the heck my teammates have done that I have topped in terms of XP".

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12 hours ago, AnExtremelyWeakPlayer said:

Third, their fragile armors do not allow American heavy cruisers to seek opportunities at close range since they can be easily sunk.

Boy you don't know what fragile is until you play Minotaur or British cruisers in particular. Japanese cruisers are also more fragile than their American counterparts.

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25 minutes ago, Sir_Feather said:

Boy you don't know what fragile is until you play Minotaur or British cruisers in particular. Japanese cruisers are also more fragile than their American counterparts.

^ This. Oh boy. Everytime when you have a flurry of shells heading towards your mino, you say a prayer: "Please don't hit, please don't hit" and if it does hit, you pray it did not multi-citadel. Trying to angle makes no difference. 

Also, what we are seeing now is that more people know how to angle properly and most angle it to the extent to compensate for American AP shells. If it can bounce Freedom shells, other shells will bounce too.

Edited by dejiko_nyo

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13 hours ago, AnExtremelyWeakPlayer said:

Third, their fragile armors do not allow American heavy cruisers to seek opportunities at close range since they can be easily sunk.

Fiji,Leander,Budyonny,Schors would have talk to you....
also Zara and Trento saying Hello to you.... :Smile_trollface:
 

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14 hours ago, AnExtremelyWeakPlayer said:

York

Yorck

'York' may come to the game later, and that's an RN CA.

 

Anyway, US super heavy AP shells for the CAs only apply to Balti, Buffy and Des Moist/Salem. In close-mid range (about 8 km), they can shred enemy cruisers to pieces, citadel after citadel.

I have experienced Des Moist who deal great damage against my ships (even BBs) with AP shells while I'm bow-in or even angled. Up to 5k per 6-shell salvo. Not pleasant.

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3 minutes ago, Paladinum said:

Ayway, US super heavy AP shells for the CAs only apply to Balti, Buffy and Des Moist/Salem. In close-mid range (about 8 km), they can shred enemy cruisers to pieces, citadel after citadel.

I have experienced Des Moist who deal great damage against my ships (even BBs) with AP shells while I'm bow-in or even angled. Up to 5k per 6-shell salvo. Not pleasant.

DM can citadel a Yamato literally up its ass at point blank. 

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2 hours ago, dejiko_nyo said:

^ This. Oh boy. Everytime when you have a flurry of shells heading towards your mino, you say a prayer: "Please don't hit, please don't hit" and if it does hit, you pray it did not multi-citadel. Trying to angle makes no difference. 

Ironically, US CAs are the worst nightmare to see when you're a Mino. Their Super Heavy Shells ignore your angle most of the time.

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2 小時前,Gesterbein 說:

Zara and Trento saying Hello to you

Zara is quite durable toward cruisers because of its 150 mm armor, it is nearly impossible for Tier 7 cruisers to penetrate its citadel.

 

2 小時前,Paladinum 說:

In close-mid range (about 8 km)

I konw American cruisers can preform better in closer range. However, it is hard for them to approach enemy cruisers with 33kt. Most American cruisers can shoot only single one round before the targets kit away even if they use their detectability to manage to get into 11 km. What's more, the guns used by American cruisers seems to be slightly inaccurate, which further stopping them to deal enough damage. For example, I can get a 5/8 or 7/12 hitting  ratio while using Hipper or Schors at 11 km, but I get only 3/8 while using New Orleans whose arc is considered low among American ships.  

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17 hours ago, AnExtremelyWeakPlayer said:

I use AP shells quite often on Germany cruisers like Hipper and York and they make some use. When I do the same on New Orleans, I feel disappointed. 

You use the same tactic with two different nation. Clearly, German and USN cruisers are different. Every nation has their own traits. If you feel German cruisers fit really well to your plastyle, then I suggest you to stick with it.

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Hug islands as if it's your waifu

Use mainly AP to blap cruisers

Take Expert Loader skill

Edited by Navy_Sensou

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