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SidTheKnife

Multiple CVs vs Tier 3 ships

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Something needs to be done about CVs in the lower tiers. Maybe just have CV vs CV, and leave the others alone. Tier IV CV vs tiers I-III ships is a really a silly game to play. You just spend the entire game practicing your bombing, and in the end you and the other team CVs are left alive.

The low tier CV mechanic is completely broken, in my view. There is never any danger for the CV. They are always alive at the end. They cannot be harmed, and they can harm everything at will. It is actually very boring to play these CV match ups.

I just played 3 low tier games, twice as Tier IV BB, once as tier IV CV. In both BB games, there were 3 CVs on each team. Both times, I was torped to death before I could get halfway across the map. Meanwhile, the WW1 era aircraft fly at several kilometers per second, crossing the map in seconds.

As CV, all I did was bomb stuff. For a laugh, I sent my CV directly towards the centre of the map. In fact, this put me in no danger. By the time I was to the centre, the battle was decided. I was never in any danger.

The mechanic is utterly broken. It makes no sense, either. 1920s aircraft could not travel kilometers per second, they did not have perfect perception  of vast areas of map, and the pilots did not have instant updates of all battlefield information.

Even in WW2, most flights sent out from carriers found nothing, and had to return from lack of fuel. It was very rare to find anything. That was in WW2. These 1920 CVs are incredibly over powered and unrealistic. They have far too much mobility, and far too much battleground intelligence. Not to mention, they have targeting systems that put modern jets to shame.

The ships deal with limited battlefield intel, and it adds to the excitement. CVs have unlimited battlefield intel, and it robs the game of excitement.

That is my two cents on CVs, for the lower tiers.  They did not exist historically, and should not exist in the game, especially as they are now.

Most especially, 3 at once time, in fleets of 6 and 8.

Edited by SidTheKnife
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3 minutes ago, BIGCOREMKP0I said:

Ever heard of 

 

"Just Dodge™"?

 

 

Yes, I play "World of Just Dodging Online".

It's wild fun.

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I find it funny. That this keeps on popping up. Instead of people looking at older threads to see the replies. Like this is the 2nd one within 1 week. Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

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Agreed.  Due to this, my friends who were taken by me to this game all afked.

If this condition continues, less and less freshman will be happy to explore this game.

 

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The same with T8 4 CVs and you play a T6.  It's a dodging game.

But if the CVs are in capable hands, your dead in a flight of rocket planes in less than 2 mins. 

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19 minutes ago, dejiko_nyo said:

I find it funny. That this keeps on popping up. Instead of people looking at older threads to see the replies. Like this is the 2nd one within 1 week. Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Tells you more about the kind of people that make these threads.

They are more inclined to make a thread to complain instead of looking for advice and tips first and complaining second. Because if they did that they would have noticed there was another thread complaining about the same time and would have posted it there.

Edited by Thyaliad

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Perhaps a solution is to make CVs very vulnerable to other CVs. In this way, their game would be forced to take place on its own terms, away from the rest of the fleet, at least until one or the other CV is down.

This would be realistic. Historically, CVs hunted other CVs, because they were the biggest danger to each other.

If the CVs need other ships to protect them, or to win an air war against enemy CVs before they could engage the surface fleet, it would promote team interaction.

Currently, CVs may as well not be on the map. They only ever become targets once the match has already been decided, and even then they are often spared by the timer or points. They attack, attack, attack the whole game, and when they "defend", they simply run to the furtherest part of the empty map. It is not a fleet activity, they are not dependent on the rest of the fleet.

It would be historically unrealistic to make CVs weak, yet they are not an existential danger to each other, which is plain weird. Perhaps there ought to be some mechanic whereby a CV can be deleted from the map in the first 3 minutes, if tactics go against them.

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CV hunting CV ?already doing that when RTS CV still in  this game lul
Sinking enemy CV at start game because enemy CV busy farming damage:Smile_trollface:

 

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42 minutes ago, Thyaliad said:

Tells you more about the kind of people that make these threads.

They are more inclined to make a thread to complain instead of looking for advice and tips first and complaining second. Because if they did that they would have noticed there was another thread complaining about the same time and would have posted it there.

What about the "kind of people" who post nothing except snark on threads they do not need to contribute to?

What about those "kind of people"?

Perhaps you ought to start a constructive thread titled "People who displease me very much and my feelings about that."

It would be a great read.

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8 minutes ago, Gesterbein said:

CV hunting CV ?already doing that when RTS CV still in  this game lul
Sinking enemy CV at start game because enemy CV busy farming damage:Smile_trollface:

 

Except now CV have auto antiair protection that makes it difficult to snipe by cv because 'want to reduce skill gap'.

Anyways, the old RTS CV snipe tactic only worked when the enemy CV is unattentive. Which I learnt rather quickly did not happen often.

51 minutes ago, Thyaliad said:

Tells you more about the kind of people that make these threads.

They are more inclined to make a thread to complain instead of looking for advice and tips first and complaining second. Because if they did that they would have noticed there was another thread complaining about the same time and would have posted it there.

We got salty salt salted saltines at yout reply.

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1 hour ago, dejiko_nyo said:

I find it funny. That this keeps on popping up. Instead of people looking at older threads to see the replies. Like this is the 2nd one within 1 week. 

Me in a small corner of the forum: *innocently post ship line proposals/theorycraft*

Edited by Paladinum
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24 minutes ago, SidTheKnife said:

What about the "kind of people" who post nothing except snark on threads they do not need to contribute to?

What about those "kind of people"?

Perhaps you ought to start a constructive thread titled "People who displease me very much and my feelings about that."

It would be a great read. 

I already posted what I needed to say on other similar threads on this forum, so I don't see the need to repeat myself yet again on this thread. Hell, one such thread is still on the front page of this forum and the latest reply was about 13 hours ago at time of writing. So it is still active. You could have just posted whatever you needed to say there instead of creating a brand new thread.

17 minutes ago, dejiko_nyo said:

Except now CV have auto antiair protection that makes it difficult to snipe by cv because 'want to reduce skill gap'.

Anyways, the old RTS CV snipe tactic only worked when the enemy CV is unattentive. Which I learnt rather quickly did not happen often.

We got salty salt salted saltines at yout reply.

Yup, looks like I struck a nerve.

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1 hour ago, greywolfsdb2013 said:

The same with T8 4 CVs and you play a T6.  It's a dodging game.

But if the CVs are in capable hands, your dead in a flight of rocket planes in less than 2 mins. 

The difference is in a T8 game there are friendlies who can protect you. In low tier game, no one, not even your own team’s CV can provide any meaningful AA.

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36 minutes ago, Paladinum said:

Me in a small corner of the forum: *innocently post ship line proposals/theorycraft*

Stop looking so innocent you uninnocent thing.

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33 minutes ago, Thyaliad said:

I already posted what I needed to say on other similar threads on this forum, so I don't see the need to repeat myself yet again on this thread. Hell, one such thread is still on the front page of this forum and the latest reply was about 13 hours ago at time of writing. So it is still active. You could have just posted whatever you needed to say there instead of creating a brand new thread.

Yup, looks like I struck a nerve.

Very. Have a coolkie to negate the salt.

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Just now, dejiko_nyo said:

Stop looking so innocent you uninnocent thing.

Hey.

At least I haven't posted a thread complaining about CVs (for not being RTS) for months now. In fact I have never posted such a thread at all.

In that front I AM innocent.

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"I already posted what I needed to say on other similar threads on this forum"

No, you didn't.

You got nuthin. If you had something, you would lead with it.

Folks who lead with snark have snark. It's all they have.
 

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15 minutes ago, Paladinum said:

In that front I AM innocent.

That I would agree. But "not being a troublemaker"? That would be up for debate. :cap_look:

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24 minutes ago, SidTheKnife said:

Perhaps a solution is to make CVs very vulnerable to other CVs. In this way, their game would be forced to take place on its own terms, away from the rest of the fleet, at least until one or the other CV is down.

This is the exact opposite of what the game needs.  This is one of the things that the CV rework fixed - previously CV's could counter each other with the strafe mechanic (plus much easier CV sniping), and that led to one CV shutting down the other quite often, having free reign over the map, and having an influence in the game far greater than any other single ship.  The game is significantly improved due to the removal of this type of play.

2 hours ago, greywolfsdb2013 said:

But if the CVs are in capable hands, your dead in a flight of rocket planes in less than 2 mins. 

No you aren't.  The best CV captains won't come hunting your DD until they see you have put yourself in a compromised position, although many DD captains do not realise when they've made themselves an attractive target.  Even if the CV does come hunting your DD, you have plenty of options to make that CV captain's life very difficult.  Do this well, and the CV will leave you alone very quickly if they are good.  If they aren't so great they might continue to tunnel you, but then your team gets the advantage.

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17 minutes ago, dejiko_nyo said:

That I would agree. But "not being a troublemaker"? That would be up for debate. :cap_look:

That's only when people like you come in and derail my innocent threads with irrelevant things :fish_viking:

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5 hours ago, SidTheKnife said:

That is my two cents on CVs, for the lower tiers.  They did not exist historically, and should not exist in the game, especially as they are now.

Please tell me you're joking.

All 3 CVs existed as the pioneer of the naval aviation. Langley & Hosho were used to train the pilots & the crew while Hermes actually fought & sunk in actual battle.

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2 hours ago, SidTheKnife said:

"I already posted what I needed to say on other similar threads on this forum"

No, you didn't.

You got nuthin. If you had something, you would lead with it.

Folks who lead with snark have snark. It's all they have.
 

Yes I did.

Because it is clear you didn't read the other threads on this forum and created this thread just to whine, I am going to copy-paste the response I gave in one of them here.

On 11/17/2019 at 7:54 PM, Thyaliad said:

This is only really a problem at the low tiers. At high tiers there are still many no CV games.

This is the result of the intersection of several factors.

As Dejiko said, high tier CV play has been the subject of many nerfs to the effect that it is simply not worth playing high tier CVs for the amount of effort they require. So people flock to the low tiers where AA is limited and enemy fighters almost non-existent.

The removal of the odd-tier CVs meant players grinding through the CV lines will have to spend nearly 2x as long on Tier 4 compared to other surface ships so of course there will be a bottleneck at Tier 4. The Research Bureau encouraging veterans to sealclub doesn't help either.

This.

The problem can't be solved by implementing a 1 CV per side hard cap like some people suggest because the problem is a popularity issue, not an MM one. There are just too many people queuing in CVs relative to other classes at low tier. A hard cap will just cause more games with incomplete team roster.

The key is to make lower tier CVs less popular. There are several ways to do this: nerfing plane health as suggested, increasing AA, giving CV squadrons the fighter consumable to create more pressure, or even economic nerfs.

But looks like what I said earlier was right bang on the money. Some people would rather create whine threads instead of actually reading the forums.

16 minutes ago, Sir_Feather said:

Please tell me you're joking.

All 3 CVs existed as the pioneer of the naval aviation. Langley & Hosho were used to train the pilots & the crew while Hermes actually fought & sunk in actual battle.

The realism argument is completely arbitrary at this point. Notice it is only brought up to argue for buffs to your own class or nerfs to a class that you don't like, but never for nerfs to your own class.

I mean, this is a game where ships have unlimited shells and torpedoes, do not suffer from listing or bouyancy issues, can vanish without a trace in broad daylight and can put out fires and repair their several-tonne rudders instantly. The same game where the very historical and realistic tactic of "crossing the T" is punished by game mechanics. Arguing for realism is pointless.

 

Also some fun facts about the "did not exist" Tier 4 CVs :

Out of the 3 CVs, only Houshou would end up surviving the war. Langley was also sunk in WWII, but she had been converted to a seaplane tender at the time of her sinking.

Houshou was present at both Pearl Harbour and Midway as part of the Main Body. But contrary to what some armchair historians say, she would have been pretty useless in trying to save the Kidou Butai from destruction at Midway as she only had biplanes at that time. She would spend the rest of the war as a training ship, after which she would serve as a repatriation transport before finally being scrapped.

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7 hours ago, Sir_Feather said:

Please tell me you're joking.

All 3 CVs existed as the pioneer of the naval aviation. Langley & Hosho were used to train the pilots & the crew while Hermes actually fought & sunk in actual battle.

Well, actually, he has a valid point. T3 & T4 ships are all WW1 era, there were no operating carriers during WW1. Hosho, Langley are inter war ships, and Hermes fought and sunk in WW2. They should have introduced CV's at T5. 

But, this is purely academic, this games only historical context is the ship models. Everything else about this game is fantasy, a slow paced strategy shooter mash up.

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