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Devblog- CHINESE IMAGINERY PAPER ship is coming

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Just now, Thyaliad said:

Regardless of the naming of the ships, I am more curious as to what their gimmick is going to be.

Pan-Asian cruisers seem to have deepwater torps as their gimmick. But the Pan-Asian BBs? :cap_hmm:

One of my friends in China has commented about the WiP Wukong that he would rather stick to his Irian grabbed in early 2019.

TRB for 3 torpedoes (though indeed more powerful) per side and without the French engine boost...

I think they haven't decided what "gimmicks" to apply to the Izumo-clone yet. So they only do some tweaks at present.

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45 minutes ago, Verytis said:

If you're calling it fair game, that seems to imply that you think the series of events is ok.

Well , politics is dirty , so there's no point in pointing fingers. And China is at odds with Viet Nam over the cow tounge , or the 9 dash line. So not like i favour anyone. It's two side of the same coin.

 

45 minutes ago, Project45_Opytny said:

I do not want to bring politics into this politically-neutral forum, however the argument of "Vietnam beat China in the 1979 Border War" is pure Vietnamese propaganda.

Chinese statistics claimed at least 57169 Vietnamese casualties (killed, wounded and captured) during the brief conflict with many more missing in action (for example have their corpses hidden and/or buried in situ). The PLA has captured Lang Son on March 4, 1979 and achieved the intended goal for the war in general at the cost of c. 8000 killed and missing with c. 20000 wounded or sick. The brief conflict also devastated infrastructures on the Vietnamese side of Sino-Vietnamese border, where much of Vietnamese industries had been located during the Vietnam War when China and Vietnam are allied due to scorched earth policy enforced, which caused heavy economic burdens on Vietnam throughout the 1980s when the country was bogged down in two wars of attrition.

Izumo is an ancient feudal province of Japan; Japanese heavy cruisers and battlecruisers are named after prominent mountain peaks.

Also it is illogical to give a battleship planned in late 1930s the name Izumo. The original armoured cruiser Izumo existed for the whole war and she wasn't renamed ever.

Personally speaking I think the key is that WG did not consider them as "serious" creations that would be formally named following national traditions.

Well to refute your claim. China lose it's intended objective of forcing VPA out of Cambodia ( though it did cause VPA to withdraw some to reinforce Ha Noi). The vietnamese source for chinese casualties are much higher. China fail to achieve a swift victory when facing resistance over militias unit ( most of the main division are away in Cambodia ), this is why many Chinese generals then lose credibility with the party and allow CCP to consolidate it's leadership into the civilian side. And VPA special force unit punch first into China to destroy supplies for the invasion so there's that. 
For Chinese , it doesn't matter anyway , because China showed the US it is willing to fight other communist bloc country and steer away from USSR. It's a win win. For Vietnamese , it's a win since for us Chinese lose a lot of combat troops to semi trained militias , heavy weapons was destroyed before their attack and most importantly a propaganda victory. China was unable to win any primary objectives , and failed to lure VPA out of Ha Noi so they call it a day and say it's a victory and the door to "Ha Noi" was wide open.

Your argument is much better than the ones i have to go through though. Much obliged.

Edited by legionary2099
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35 minutes ago, Project45_Opytny said:

TRB for 3 torpedoes (though indeed more powerful)

I already feel that putting TRB on Huang Meh is already a worthless gimmick. Putting TRB on a ship that has only 3 torp tubes per side is even more worthless.

12 km??? 

THREE torps!!!

 

36 minutes ago, Project45_Opytny said:

I think they haven't decided what "gimmicks" to apply to the Izumo-clone yet. So they only do some tweaks at present.

Somewhat similar to a T9 Yamato, 2.1 sigma, long range, worse RoF than Izumo.

Edited by Paladinum

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38 minutes ago, Ryuuoh_DeltaPlus said:

Pan-Asian BB get deepwater radar.

Deepwater radar to detect underwater subs ... which BBs cannot hit!

Ultimate teamplay consumable. Only your allies can benefit from it, not yourself. :Smile_medal:

36 minutes ago, Project45_Opytny said:

I think they haven't decided what "gimmicks" to apply to the Izumo-clone yet. So they only do some tweaks at present.

Hmmm depending on how one obtains it, I will probably give it a hard pass.

No point building a captain for a ship that may not end up being a good representative for the rest of the line. Abruzzi and the Duca d'Aosta come to mind.

Maybe later once there is more info on the Pan-Asian BBs and their gimmick, but not now.

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18 minutes ago, legionary2099 said:

Well , politics is dirty , so there's no point in pointing fingers. And China is at odds with Viet Nam over the cow tounge , or the 9 dash line. So not like i favour anyone. It's two side of the same coin.

 

Well to refute your claim. China lose it's intended objective of forcing VPA out of Cambodia ( though it did cause VPA to withdraw some to reinforce Ha Noi). The vietnamese source for chinese casualties are much higher. China fail to achieve a swift victory when facing resistance over militias unit ( most of the main division are away in Cambodia ), this is why many Chinese generals then lose credibility with the party and allow CCP to consolidate it's leadership into the civilian side. And VPA special force unit punch first into China to destroy supplies for the invasion so there's that. 
For Chinese , it doesn't matter anyway , because China showed the US it is willing to fight other communist bloc country and steer away from USSR. It's a win win. For Vietnamese , it's a win since for us Chinese lose a lot of combat troops to semi trained militias , heavy weapons was destroyed before their attack and most importantly a propaganda victory. China was unable to win any primary objectives , and failed to lure VPA out of Ha Noi so they call it a day and say it's a victory and the door to "Ha Noi" was wide open.

Even though I have found some counter arguments to your claims, I do not want to pollute this place with politics further.

 

5 minutes ago, Thyaliad said:

Deepwater radar to detect underwater subs ... which BBs cannot hit!

Ultimate teamplay consumable. Only your allies can benefit from it, not yourself. :Smile_medal:

Hmmm depending on how one obtains it, I will probably give it a hard pass.

No point building a captain for a ship that may not end up being a good representative for the rest of the line. Abruzzi and the Duca d'Aosta come to mind.

Maybe later once there is more info on the Pan-Asian BBs and their gimmick, but not now.

I do not think a "historical" Pan-Asian BB line would be viable, though what WG has done recently has confused me indeed.

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historical fact is not really and likely need not to be respected in some of these paper ships .. real ship in naval warfare never venture out in small formation / group / solo except for very specific mission , not the confrontation as the game present , you will not see DD alone out on an engagement running flank, instead you see a flotilla of DD likely spearheaded with 1 or 2 CL. This game can only had 12, leave a slot say for CV, and then we had most just wishing the most damage done sailing into the game with Super Cruiser , Premium BB what does than this left for normal CA, CL and DD .. I for long say they are neglected and it reflects. WG trying to made them ale to work and deal damage on equal term and trying all these weird paper ship configurations ..

Edited by Mechfori

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8 hours ago, Project45_Opytny said:

The two Pan-Asian special captains in Qing-Dynasty official robes?

yep

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Pan Asia Slava as t10 tech tree bb

 

WEEGEE u see that ^^^^

Edited by Gummilicious

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2 hours ago, Ryuuoh_DeltaPlus said:

Pan-Asian BB get deepwater radar.

I remember during the Russian BB testing days, they have radar, but only detects BB and CV at great distances (I forgot the range). CL/CA and DD are not detectable.

This concept is shelved as of the moment.

Who knows, maybe WG might put this in the Pan-Asia CL and BB lines. (Though like @Project45_Opytny Pan-Asia BB is doubtful to impossible.)

I will still go with @Paladinum comments. Pan-Asia is more than China.

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11 minutes ago, S0und_Theif said:

I remember during the Russian BB testing days, they have radar

Remember when RN BBs used to have radar? I 'member.

 

11 minutes ago, S0und_Theif said:

but only detects BB and CV at great distances (I forgot the range)

15 km. May as well be 18 because my German BBs can already be seen from the Moon with naked eyes.

When will Axis ships get radar?

 

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1 minute ago, Paladinum said:

Remember when RN BBs used to have radar? I 'member.

The screenshot of Conqueror with her twin 457-mm mounts undergoing test at Naval Station Newport...?

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29 minutes ago, Project45_Opytny said:

The screenshot of Conqueror with her twin 457-mm mounts undergoing test at Naval Station Newport...?

Her flat aft had the word "Thunderer" on it though.

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4 hours ago, Project45_Opytny said:

Even though I have found some counter arguments to your claims, I do not want to pollute this place with politics further.

I think this just shows that any side can claim victory as long as they have met some of their goals.

For example Battle of Coral Sea. On one hand the Japanese can claim victory because in terms of tonnage they sunk more than they lost. But on the other hand it was also a US victory because they successfully prevented the IJN from completing their objective of capturing Port Moresby. 

Imo what is more important is not who won but what was the outcome.

But anyway back on topic:

4 hours ago, Project45_Opytny said:

I do not think a "historical" Pan-Asian BB line would be viable, though what WG has done recently has confused me indeed

Neither do I, but WG has shown it has no problems with fabricating lines of mostly paper ships. They have a lot of experience doing the same thing in WoT with tanks. :Smile-_tongue:

But imo what matters is that they are fun to play. 

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so when are all the DD suppose to get those 15 / 20 KM torp .. well they build that into Yoshino, Somers, which is another way to admit that the old DD spec of those 10, 8KM just plain do not work and we all know why ... ditto to all the CL / CA many are sill specified for patches and patches back, not updated and power creepeed to be basically irrelevant

Edited by Mechfori

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2 hours ago, Thyaliad said:

I think this just shows that any side can claim victory as long as they have met some of their goals.

For example Battle of Coral Sea. On one hand the Japanese can claim victory because in terms of tonnage they sunk more than they lost. But on the other hand it was also a US victory because they successfully prevented the IJN from completing their objective of capturing Port Moresby. 

Imo what is more important is not who won but what was the outcome.

But anyway back on topic:

Neither do I, but WG has shown it has no problems with fabricating lines of mostly paper ships. They have a lot of experience doing the same thing in WoT with tanks. :Smile-_tongue:

But imo what matters is that they are fun to play. 

I have known about the Chinese tank destroyers of WoT which is almost completely fabricated by WG originally for the Chinese server.

The problem is that naval architecture, construction and maintenance is way more complex compared with armored fighting vehicles and even aircrafts until the supersonic age. A handful of foreign engineers can help a third-rate country to develop a "domestic" jet fighter (HA-300 of Egypt, HF-24 Marut of India and the Argentine Pulqui projects), and even Finland and Romania has developed domestic fighter aircraft back to World War II. And in the case of AFVs, Romania have developed a tank destroyer based on captured Soviet T-60 light tank chassis, the Egyptians and Syrians has built assault guns and self-propelled howitzers on Soviet T-34 chassis, and even the Yugoslav Partisans were able to modify captured German ex-French Souma tanks and re-arm at least one example with a British 57-mm 6-pounder AT gun. PRC has also created a number of design preliminaries and sketches (i.e. Type 59-16, WZ-111 and T-34-1) in the 1950s.

Or in other words, even if the Chinese TDs are clearly fabricated, they are using components available for China then, like the cases of Roon, Zao, Henri IV and Venezia; also, these four are created, at least generally and at most times, with clear reference to the established practices and traditions of the certain country's historical naval architecture. These do not exist at all for the countries represented by Pan-Asia which are mostly agrarian countries during the time period this game mainly covers, and their economic conditions combined with practical needs has heavily limited their navies.

Indonesia acquired a Soviet-built fleet from late 1950s to 1965 as the Soviets decided to support Sukarno's left-leaning Indonesia against the Netherlands and Australia. However the fleet soon fell into disrepair after the 1965 coup with the harsh tropical climate and complete absence of Soviet technicians and spare parts.

PRC started studies of naval construction from the 1950s, however, with rather limited industrial capacity, the first domestically-built frigates completed by 1958 were actually assembled from Soviet components in Chinese shipyards and were of Soviet Pr.50, while the first major warships to be designed and built in China since 1945 were only a handful of frigates with obsolete equipments (for 1960s) and modest performance (they were powered with civilian-standard diesels). Domestically-built missile destroyers with adequate navigational performance did not come into service until 1971.

Thailand purchased a number of coastal torpedo boats from Italy in the 1930s, as well as an ex-British World War I destroyer, two Japanese-built sloops, two Japanese-built coastal defence ships and two Italian-built light cruisers (they were not completed and were scuttled in Trieste in 1943). However that's that. 

The United States has provided many surplus Bensons, Fletchers and Gearings as well as other vessels like destroyer esorts and patrol gunboats for several navies in this region, however the players do not want to see more clones with artifical national gimmicks.

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It is bugging me, Conqkek still has 457mm written at her description.

I thing if WG want to add more Australia-Asiatic ships, i still have some on the lists :

 

Rana India

R-Class British DD, i don't think we have R-class already in the game.

Spoiler

2019-11-13.thumb.png.273d3f58323fe2ebffb089a71c5804fe.png

 

 

HMAS Melbourne

CV. Until the promised jet planes become available, i think it still long way to go.

Planes : de Havilland Sea Venom, Gannet

I think Gannet can fill attack aircraft (rockets), bomber, or torpedo bomber nicely.

While Sea Venom as deploy able fighters.

Spoiler

102959301_2019-11-13(1).thumb.png.6c226aebfcfe826007d6bae9c012c040.png
 

 

DD Takatsuki

note the highlighted weapon.

It has 40 to 28 IRL RPM each (for a total 80 to 56). The same weapon also used at post war Australian DDs (i.e. Perth, Charles F. Adams class).

The thing with HMAS Perth, she has Tartar anti air missile. Takatsuki has her ASROC, not sure it would bode well with the future Sub addition but WG can just strip such armaments, like what they did with some ships.

Compared to Gearing's gun mk38 x 3 twin they have 15 RPM for a total 90 RPM IRL.

Not sure if the small anti sub mk46 torpedo will transform to a deep water nicely.

Short reload deep water with minimal damage and range? I don't think i would happy with that but....

Could has a respectable range at the cost of speed.

Spoiler

714823789_2019-11-13(2).thumb.png.e2015d5559642a45f1e5fc76403da777.png

Black Prince, Dido class

I found it is interesting to have HE and SAP munitions.

Spoiler

2019-11-13 (3).png

 

 

HMAS Australia, a County class CA

4x 203mm Twin and 2x3 533mm torp launchers.

 

Looking to a more modern classes,

I think we well have more gun totting ships if WG stripped the missile entirely.

i.e. Chinese Luda class with 2x130mm twin.

 

Or maybe 76mm OTO Melara with special HE penetration.

We could fit Singapore Endurance class LSD (Super Rapido) or Phillipine Gregorio del Pilar (Compact).

They technically has no missiles. Only one gun ship that spew 85 (Compact) to 120 (Super Rapido) RPM.

Compared to Friesland with her Bofors, IRL 2x2 40 RPM (total 160).

Place them at lower tier and fixed. Not sure people would like another rapid shooter however.

WG can add gimmick to the LSD as well, a completely new ship type. With 8500 ton full load, that thing is comparable to a CA HP pool.

While the offshore patrol boat is comparable to a CL HP pool.

Edited by Brunswickz

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10 hours ago, S0und_Theif said:

Who knows, maybe WG might put this in the Pan-Asia CL and BB lines. (Though like @Project45_Opytny Pan-Asia BB is doubtful to impossible.)

 I will still go with @Paladinum comments. Pan-Asia is more than China.

 

12 hours ago, Project45_Opytny said:

I do not think a "historical" Pan-Asian BB line would be viable, though what WG has done recently has confused me indeed.

WG try to be Historically accurate as far as ship design and country goes. Problem is when certain countries interpret history a different way. Countries we’ve seen so far, those with ships in WW1 and 2, have a pretty shared account of who’s who and who owned what. Whats happening here is you have trouble going ‘historically accurate’ because of, to put it nicely, wildly different views on what that is.

I’m of the personal opinion that you should just stick to the facts, and, in the case of paper ships, use ‘factual’ ‘historically accurate’ designs and regionally appropriate names.

13 hours ago, Thyaliad said:

Deepwater radar to detect underwater subs ... which BBs cannot hit!

Ultimate teamplay consumable. Only your allies can benefit from it, not yourself. :Smile_medal:

This is a brilliant idea. I’d love to see more abilities which are useless to the ship but help the team.

I can just see a BB using deep radar while there are no other ships nearby to help. Or just not using it because it doesn’t benefit them even when team is screaming out :Smile_trollface:

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I swear Commonwealth should get full DD and CL lines long before PA gets more non-existent ships...

I've done lines up before, including CV options... Honestly, RM BB, DD and RN CA lines I fully support but PA should not be getting more bullocks ships before Commonwealth gets tech lines and a stack more premiums...

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1 hour ago, S4pp3R said:

I swear Commonwealth should get full DD and CL lines long before PA gets more non-existent ships...

I've done lines up before, including CV options... Honestly, RM BB, DD and RN CA lines I fully support but PA should not be getting more bullocks ships before Commonwealth gets tech lines and a stack more premiums...

I'd give you a thumbs up but WG limits the number I can give out per day. I'm totally with you on this, there are so many real ships used in real combat, and I think a lot more people would want to see these ships before clones of paper ships in highly hypothetical scenarios here, a fake ship and a fake sale :fish_palm:

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2 hours ago, S4pp3R said:

I swear Commonwealth should get full DD and CL lines long before PA gets more non-existent ships...

I've done lines up before, including CV options... Honestly, RM BB, DD and RN CA lines I fully support but PA should not be getting more bullocks ships before Commonwealth gets tech lines and a stack more premiums...

 

1 hour ago, blauflamme22 said:

I'd give you a thumbs up but WG limits the number I can give out per day. I'm totally with you on this, there are so many real ships used in real combat, and I think a lot more people would want to see these ships before clones of paper ships in highly hypothetical scenarios here, a fake ship and a fake sale :fish_palm:

WG: *announce PEU DD line first thing in 2020* :Smile_trollface: 

How would you guys feel about that! :Smile_trollface:

 

I'm all for new lines (except Russian and CVs) but if it's a new line, then FOR THE LOVE OF THE SEVEN SEAS, give it as many new designs as possible!

Edited by Paladinum

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7 hours ago, Paladinum said:

 

WG: *announce PEU DD line first thing in 2020* :Smile_trollface: 

How would you guys feel about that! :Smile_trollface:

 

I'm all for new lines (except Russian and CVs) but if it's a new line, then FOR THE LOVE OF THE SEVEN SEAS, give it as many new designs as possible!

Like I understand their argument with 'but invented ships are easier, no research to do' but that doesn't mean they should be adding them...

I spose for me the most annoying bit is that for CW ships, almost all are based on RN ships, many of which already exist in game. Subsequently it would be pretty easy to release them...

I think the other thing that annoys the hell out of me that it is an Izumo clone that has better sigma... Seriously!? That's just a mincing of one's private parts... Particularly for anyone like myself who did the vanilla Izumo grind...

Don't copy a ship, make it better (yes I'd take the sigma over turret trav and reload any day) and release it for another nation...

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9 hours ago, Paladinum said:

 

WG: *announce PEU DD line first thing in 2020* :Smile_trollface: 

How would you guys feel about that! :Smile_trollface:

 

I'm all for new lines (except Russian and CVs) but if it's a new line, then FOR THE LOVE OF THE SEVEN SEAS, give it as many new designs as possible!

Considering a number of EU countries actually built their own DDs and many saw action I don't mind. They wont be copies of existing ships in game like all those UK and US DDs that were sold after the war and were then refitted with deepwater torpedoes lol, and the certainly wont be any super imaginary scenario of WGs like a pan asian Izumo.
As @S4pp3R pointed out though the one issue with a commonwealth line is that most already exist in game in the British line. That being said there are still ships that aren't in game like Black Prince or Dido class so there are some real ships they could work with.

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3 hours ago, blauflamme22 said:

Considering a number of EU countries actually built their own DDs and many saw action I don't mind. They wont be copies of existing ships in game like all those UK and US DDs that were sold after the war and were then refitted with deepwater torpedoes lol, and the certainly wont be any super imaginary scenario of WGs like a pan asian Izumo.
As @S4pp3R pointed out though the one issue with a commonwealth line is that most already exist in game in the British line. That being said there are still ships that aren't in game like Black Prince or Dido class so there are some real ships they could work with.

Still easy as to put them in, seriously easy.

Commonwealth nations often heavily modified their ships or the ships saw service for far longer meaning more refits or modern tech.

I've done up a full CW tree before and pretty much all of them minus a bit if paper at high tier CLs were built and used...

Just give them different mechanics and they'll be fine. Perth and Haida play similar to Leander and Jervis but are very different in feel...

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3 minutes ago, S4pp3R said:

 Just give them different mechanics and they'll be fine. Perth and Haida play similar to Leander and Jervis but are very different in feel...

Just playing devil's advocate here...

New designs are easier to "gimmickify" than existing designs :fish_book: As Friesland is a very modern design (compare to most ships in the game). PEU DD high tiers may have some kind of special Radar or Hydro, but no Engine Boost.

 

That reminds me I need to post my PEU DD line proposal some times in the future.

Or not.

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1 hour ago, Paladinum said:

PEU DD high tiers may have some kind of special Radar or Hydro, but no Engine Boost.

I doubt it. The " no Engine Boost" thing is too British to be an EU thing. bad Brexit joke

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