AIRCRAFT Carriers

[Reinhard_of_Avercland]

 

4 minutes ago, Grygus_Triss said:

Thread named Aircraft Carriers.

Currently talking about DDs.

Derailment check.

The person who made this thread mentioned DDs though

On 11/3/2019 at 7:42 PM, Phantom_Yamato said:

REMOVE Carriers from the game or F**KING fix them so they dont f**king one shot a DD from full HP right at the start of the match

[Mechfori]

French DD certainly is a response to the current game meta , especially with CV around ; but unless all DD are given that French speed , otherwise a majority are still specified to fail in the current state of play ( if they ever try to do their old game role ) so they do not, they do not go cap, the do not go screen, they do not go spot, and they do not actively team play cause as the mentioned , high risk, practically zero to minima return ... from the DD players standpoint the back line guns are just using them as fire bait and target for enemy so they can farm with ease. The counter thought on that then is I am not going to had any I made sure you won;t had any .. so DD Player are seen doing what they do toda

And for may there is also no way or very difficult to go do anything else .. no matter the argument , most old timer DD still had smoke and cool down balanced for the time when there is no Radar, no CV, and certainly not the new spotting change , and not to say all the new premium ships .. DD is one of the class that need specific teak and tailoring for each and every tree and those differs significantly .. for Torpedo boat , stealth and mean to evade , and for gunboat ability to burst once get into position ... at current game meta this is becoming a joke ... the primary is that spotting mechanism change , it changes to favor the targets but without compensating that for the other side , the attackers.

CV get thrown in to this already bad situation and the unfortunately add to it in the most unhealthy manner. And we had to ask why .. in sort because their function to CAP is not answered, their function to capitalize on checking the big guns and now super cruisers are not realized and they had proven only effective as predator on something that cannot defend itself , the DDs. But on the other hand its spotting capacity had been blown to out of proportion strength making the campers even more ever unwilling to go team fight and camping even further , which create situation that the big guns , super cruisers and basically anyone having the range ( and many who do not ) to disengage themselves from their own light force up front. and then this further worsen the game play as DD and CV sees it ; CV sees a wall of AA bunched up so they had to go find something else ... DDs ; DD sees that their guns and cruisers unable and more often just unwilling to even support, so either they ran off or they simply go lone wolf. Good DD player just sail around stealth and look for opportunities, less good player sail wide , out or bad just to avoid the aerial attack or plain sit at the back lane also so they can had the AA cover. So So DD player and bad DD payer are frequently just got deleted. And that further weaken the back line and the front both .. everyone not happy but do we had to blame CV or the DD, not really CV's planes go into the field facing enemy, DD do go up and face the enemy ( as they had to they got no range to play with ).

So in the end ... BB, Super Cruiser player and their damage only and not taking any tanking mindset is what drive todays game meta and that it drive how others would play and how they would not play. 

 

[ogowa]

I want my money back

I paid real money for a premium level 4 battle cruiser

Game after game after game, its 3 cv per side

I get hit before I can engage other ships, again and again.

I don't want to be told I am playing wrong, I dodge,   TT after TT, until I am the last combat ship left, then its impossible, 3 loads of planes at a a time. 

I have a couple of times even managed to get into range to at least try to hit a CV, its just impossible

 

How the hell can I gain points against this?

Why should I even try when I know its impossible against such odds

I want my money back

[spixys]

1 時間前、ogowa の発言:

*your daily generic whine*

Ok then, you suck at this game and the CV player is better than you.

And kinds like you are one of reason why I wanted to suggest people with stats like you should only be able to post at off topic section.

[ogowa]

I might suck, according to you, have fun playing on empty servers as us newbies continue to quit

[dejiko_nyo]

As @LtDan_IceCream will put it, no issues with filling up coop slots with friendly comrade bots.

[spixys]

7 分前、ogowa の発言:

*generic quitting statements*

I had heard 5 trillions comments like this from other games and the server is still alive and well.

I don't mind drunkards like you quit (actually you should), is just that you should grow some balls to stop comment in forums first before you quit.

P.S. btw I enjoyed WoWp - a game that has much less people than this game.

[RalphTheTheatreCat]

10 minutes ago, ogowa said:

I might suck, according to you, have fun playing on empty servers as us newbies continue to quit

Server numbers haven't really varied in 12 months in fact they appear to have grown slightly..……..but ok.  Seeya

[Ryuuoh_DeltaPlus]

3 hours ago, Grygus_Triss said:

Thread named Aircraft Carriers.

Currently talking about DDs.

Derailment check.

Because it's all about the poor DDs getting abused by CVs.

[Ryuuoh_DeltaPlus]

13 minutes ago, ogowa said:

I might suck, according to you, have fun playing on empty servers as us newbies continue to quit

Oh no the game is dead eveyone is leaving

 

Said every whiner since 2016.

[LtDan_IceCream]

43 minutes ago, dejiko_nyo said:

As @LtDan_IceCream will put it, no issues with filling up coop slots with friendly comrade bots.

[RalphTheTheatreCat]

12 minutes ago, LtDan_IceCream said:

Glorious increase in bots to farm damage off as well.

[Paladinum]

Half of the playerbase: "Remove CVs, they are killing the fun"

The other half: "They are fine, learn to deal with it"

 

Me remembering how fun it was playing RTS CVs:   

 

[blauflamme22]

You don't have to lay into new players with only a few hundred games under their belt, he has a point, the 3 CV per side games in the lower tiers are terrible. I was in a div with a clan mate who was starting a new line and playing those low tiers was not fun and I knew what I was doing. To any new player that jumps into a ship only to find it's got almost no (or actually completely no) AA and is now at the mercy of CVs farming them will be put off.

[S0und_Theif]

33 minutes ago, Paladinum said:

Half of the playerbase: "Remove CVs, they are killing the fun"

The other half: "They are fine, learn to deal with it"

 

Me remembering how fun it was playing RTS CVs:   

 

I remember RTS CV doing 2 tactics:

Tactic 1: Cross torp your ship. 90% of the DD will have 1 or 0 hits, while bigger ships will eat from 3 - 9 torps.
Tactic 2: Torp the ship, ship use Damage Control, then torp the ship again and let the flooding bleed her to death.

The difficulty in RTS is that, you have to time everything right.
You also have micromanage (like Starcraft players level micro manage). You either forget that you have some alive squadron in the air, or they were all shot down without you noticing.
Limited aircraft. You loose all your aircraft, you are a sitting duck for you and your team.

 

The re-work CV, You can not do the cross torp tactic.
Flooding the ship to death is also no longer an effective tactic, ever since they updated the flooding mechanics on (0.8.0 or 0.8.1 or 0.8.2 I forgot which update)

The trade off is, now you get unlimited squadron. No more worrying being a sitting duck in later game and continue to contribute.
Surface ship AA was re-worked multiple times. (Nerf, Buff, Nerf, Buff, Nerf)
Economics is now bad.

 

I don't know the current simplified version of playing CV is a good change or a bad change. Not all agree on this.

 

If I was sunk =  GG.
If I survive = "Do not run, we are your friends."

[Thyaliad]

1 hour ago, blauflamme22 said:

You don't have to lay into new players with only a few hundred games under their belt, he has a point, the 3 CV per side games in the lower tiers are terrible.

I don't think anyone here is denying that 3 CV per side games are terrible.

[Paladinum]

 

24 minutes ago, S0und_Theif said:

I don't know the current simplified version of playing CV is a good change or a bad change. Not all agree on this.

And then I realize the many thing that could be done to minimize RTS CV's power and influence.

• No CV should have more than 6 squadrons (for balance)
• Reducing the damage of all aircraft weapons (also for balance)
• Fighters keep their strafe but Manual Drop for attack squadrons doesn't tighten the drop reticule. I think that it was a very silly thing. Unexperienced players can't use it, but skilled players will one-shot just about everyone because of this feature

 

RTS CVs are simple to play, but not easy. Those simple mechanics and gameplay elements provide a ship load of depth.

Reworked CVs are easy to play but awfully tedious. What are we playing, the ships or the aircrafts? RTS CVs make sense as the players are the captain of a warship, not aircraft pilots.

The 2 things that are successful that came out of the rework are more sensical AA mechanics and CV popularity, but this also gimped CVs significantly as a ship type.

The job of the captain of a CV is telling the pilots who's the next target. In this game it should stop right there. Not even Manual Drop.

Not to mention automated consumable usage (I don't know if this has changed so correct me if I'm wrong) and fighter squadrons that: cannot chase enemy aircrafts, have an area of operation that appears on the enemy's minimap and crappy acquisition time.

 

[dejiko_nyo]

8 minutes ago, Thyaliad said:

I don't think anyone here is denying that 3 CV games per side is terrible.

Yep. No one is denying but what people don't understand is that this is the result of "increased CV players", broken matchmaking, "waiting times is our primary concern", failure to listen to the sane player base, "throwing out more unbalanced content is more important", etc2.

What kept RTS CV population in matches in check was the low player base. About this time last year, I already forsaw all these problems. Some of us saw the issues but wg "wanted to keep to their unrealistic release schedule". ANYWAYS, what's done is done and I have lost all respect for the developers.

13 minutes ago, S0und_Theif said:

I remember RTS CV doing 2 tactics:

<SNIP>

If I was sunk =  GG.
If I survive = "Do not run, we are your friends."

>_> <_< Hmm.. I seemed to have created quite a new context. :D But yes, your TL;DR post summed up what I will say.

42 minutes ago, Paladinum said:

Me remembering how fun it was playing RTS CVs:   

Those were the days... And I was getting proficient too...

What half the player base (ie, the ones screaming yet not playing CV) is that if you try it you will be screaming more. BUUUTTTTT butts.

[dejiko_nyo]

1 minute ago, Paladinum said:

And then I realize the many thing that could be done to minimize RTS CV's power and influence.

• No CV should have more than 6 squadrons (for balance)
• Reducing the damage of all aircraft weapons (also for balance)
• Fighters keep their strafe but Manual Drop for attack squadrons doesn't tighten the drop reticule. I think that it was a very silly thing. Unexperienced players can't use it, but skilled players will one-shot just about everyone because of this feature

I would take out all the manual drop/strafe if "skill was such an issue". Right now, skill gap is creeping, no wait, already back with skilled CV players.

[Thyaliad]

9 minutes ago, dejiko_nyo said:

I would take out all the manual drop/strafe if "skill was such an issue". Right now, skill gap is creeping, no wait, already back with skilled CV players.

Imo the rework CV is what manual dropping should have been.

[Mechfori]

I say nobody should had a right to lay on any others be him / her a newbie or a veteran.

CV and how its being played is not the culprit; its the lousy MM and inability of WG to update all ship at all tier and class to be able to play fair and square . if the game made it so that CV are present then AA and proper counterplay must be given for all ships that can face them in game to had proper counter measure whether its their own AA or CAP or something and clearly this is not the case and there just not the planes damage dealing alone , there is also the spotting or lack of any counter measure

DD suffer the most cause they are already abused by spotting mechanism change radar hydro more dd hunting gunboat and low to mid tier CA BB & CL only marginally less abused simply that they can tank some damage ...

If a game had a mechanic that 1/2 of the players finding it wrong then its already very wrong ...

[Verytis]

I grinded the RN DDs from the bottom and 3 CVs wasn't really an issue for it because of the short smoke.

But even without smoke, the majority of T4 CVs were still learning how to drop and thus were doing mostly chip damage. And you could dodge gunfire at range, and with a bit of island cover.

Gunboat DDs are doing okish, even if its only due to average CV's skill. Although torp DDs probably have a harder time. Still, they can offer smoke to the team, although their spotting duties are much more reduced.

 

In open water, a decent CL player should easily dodge most torps and dive bombs, unless the CVs coordinate for cross torping, which I have almost never seen. For them, the main trouble is more about the CV forcing them to show broadside to the enemy surface ships. It forces them to play long range near cover until the enemy thins out.

 

That leaves the BBs suffering. They can shrug off a bunch of hits but they're too slow and dodging things just makes it hard for them to get anywhere, not to mention having a hard time bearing their turrets in the right direction.

 

 

I do think it is also half a case of players not wanting to learn the game tho.

[Mechfori]

fundamentally its simply still a case of bad MM rather than anything specific to any ship or ship type , and a bit of player behavior and how they abuse the system ... would player of all skill level still complain if the game MM keep that 1 CV per game as a limit ... likely not even if they would be having only minimal amount of AA ; would DD complain yet still if MM still give the roster say 1 CV and 3 to 4 Radar a side but yet only 1 or 2 DD aside, surely yes .. in short no ship ir ship type should be singled out but current MM just made it so ... especially with regard to the CV over populating any low to mid tire game ... we all know its a bad thing to had, WG likely know about it too, but they would not enforce a simple 1 CV per game limit. Allowing and even fostering such in balance in game cause they care none about it all.

We who play this game for some time might find it well OK somewhat as we had already learn the in and out of it all, and know how to best play it with such , but low to mid tier game is learning phrase to many a new player and prepare them for mid to high then top tier games. Its not learning any more for them when you present them with such MM. And thrown in all the CV player who now just go low to mid tier to farm credit , exp and stat ... yes they are seal clubbing and they know that.

its all too easy to blame CV and saying things like remove CV .. no CV is not the problem, MM is and CV player is, and game mechanics no small part of that .. ultimately its human nature , when the system can be abused for their own goal they will abuse it , and they do .. and we had a publisher who care not to close these loopholes nor simply implement that simple fix we all know about

[Brunswickz]

8 hours ago, S0und_Theif said:

I remember RTS CV doing 2 tactics:

Tactic 1: Cross torp your ship. 90% of the DD will have 1 or 0 hits, while bigger ships will eat from 3 - 9 torps.
Tactic 2: Torp the ship, ship use Damage Control, then torp the ship again and let the flooding bleed her to death.

The difficulty in RTS is that, you have to time everything right.
You also have micromanage (like Starcraft players level micro manage). You either forget that you have some alive squadron in the air, or they were all shot down without you noticing.
Limited aircraft. You loose all your aircraft, you are a sitting duck for you and your team.

 

The re-work CV, You can not do the cross torp tactic.
Flooding the ship to death is also no longer an effective tactic, ever since they updated the flooding mechanics on (0.8.0 or 0.8.1 or 0.8.2 I forgot which update)

The trade off is, now you get unlimited squadron. No more worrying being a sitting duck in later game and continue to contribute.
Surface ship AA was re-worked multiple times. (Nerf, Buff, Nerf, Buff, Nerf)
Economics is now bad.

 

I don't know the current simplified version of playing CV is a good change or a bad change. Not all agree on this.

 

If I was sunk =  GG.
If I survive = "Do not run, we are your friends."

I had another tactics with the RTS version.

3. I gave a torpedo squad to enemy fighter, i purposely bait the enemy fighter to my TB.

As enemy fighter approached my TB, i dropped the payload rather randomly. But it sunk a DD...

Spot enemy CV at the backline with 2 DBs skirting the borderline.

1 will burn the the CV, 1 will stay out of enemy CV sight.

Watch the damage counter, if he use damecon, i'll drop the 2nd DB.

Actually i sunk a Hosho just with 2 DBs as he refused to repair early, the first drop got 2 fires on her deck.

He actually used the damecon, but at the near end of the fire lifetime, the fire has already chew more than half of his HP. SO, he can't put out the fire coming from the 2nd DB.

I know he was aware of the presence of my 2nd DB, as he moved his ship towards the nearest AA coverage; I know it would be too late tho, exactly why i waited patiently with the 2nd drop.

 

RTS veteran doesn't need cross drop to hit a DD with torpedo.

 

New CV rework has this cross drop similar tactic, which sadly cannot be evaded 100% if you're using a ship as large as cruiser without speed boost or RN CL.

Step 1. Drop a torp from the back of a cruiser. You'll response by cutting your engine, letting the torp to pass thru your ship body length.

Step 2. Just right after those early torps passed your ship, the 2nd wave should be already right to your ship sides. They WILL hit the mark.

I think the best deal is to let one of the early drop to hit your ship in preparation against the 2nd step.

But... If your AA is not strong enough, theres still Step 3. Damage coming in three steps.

British CV planes could turn sharper too.

This technique i has been told at my previous post at this thread, i just want to make it clearer.

 

You can run out of plane with the rework.

Not actually run out entirely, but it is more like your regen is not as fast as your depletion.

If you want to look how bad it is, bring AA ship to T8 Coop. The AI Lexington or any T8 CV will run out planes real quick.

At the end, it will only spawn 1 plane each squadron. Which easily shot down with a slight blow of AA.

Watch the timer, how long it is to spawn a single plane.

Player however will not frugally killing their planes just like the AI.

Such slingshot, or waiting for regen to complete a squad (rather than useless solo squad), avoiding AA, etc.

[blauflamme22]

10 hours ago, dejiko_nyo said:

I would take out all the manual drop/strafe if "skill was such an issue". Right now, skill gap is creeping, no wait, already back with skilled CV players.

I think strafe was actually the worst one of all, because a good player could completely deplane the other CV very quickly, if an average player still had access to fighters they would be a deterrent to DB and TB squadrons. Obviously though its all a moot point as they are never coming back. Overall though now I don't think they are too badly balanced, the biggest problem is the number per battle, I find with high tier DDs one CV per team is easily manageable though this can sometimes be skewed if there is only one DD per team and you happen to say be a french one in which case your team suffers a huge disadvantage with you not being able to cap. Without a CV in game you will find that even a French or Russian DD will find opportunities to cap if they are playing well and have good awareness. More and more it seems to be coming down to the MM distribution of ships, rather than just a single class or particular ship and that is another topic and problem altogether.