AIRCRAFT Carriers

[legionary2099]

1 hour ago, SidTheKnife said:

The DD class is ridiculously bad, and now SAP ammo has been brought in. This ammo harms DDs, and is useless against the most powerful ships. It turns cruisers into anti DD.

If you want to run a IJN torp boat, the classes that are buffed to harm you are:

1. All gunboat DDs.

2. All CV weapons, but rockets give critical hits most times and use up Damage control.

3. Cruisers with SAP ammo.

I have also been one shotted by salvos from BBs, from across the map.

The big problem with CVs is that they reveal the DD and everyone nearby can finish you easily. The rockets take half your health and more, and disable your ship most times. From there, you are very easy to finish off

Your points are moot. Because cruiser hard counter dd in the first place. There is only one dd who have any chance of killing a cruiser 1 v 1. The rest is food for cruisers.

I agree that IJN dd are in a bad place though. They have always been bad due to the RNG nature of torpedoes.

If BB is one shot ting you , you were detonated most likely , use the deto flag. If he is killing you with HE in one salvo , the problem is you.

DD is in a great place right now after CV nerf. It require a lot of skill to work though. Tread lightly.

[dejiko_nyo]

42 minutes ago, legionary2099 said:

If he is killing you with HE in one salvo , the problem is you.

DD is in a great place right now after CV nerf. It require a lot of skill to work though. Tread lightly.

Harekaze eats T10 CV planes for breakfast, lunch and dinner. 

In the real world, that is exactly what happens. One good BB salvo = dead DD.

[Verytis]

Seriously, I don't understand why people keep trying to crap on DDs for being terrible. Are they not the most influencial surface ship? Are they unimportant, despite DDs being in such small numbers in most matches?

[EULA_violator]

18 minutes ago, Verytis said:

Seriously, I don't understand why people keep trying to crap on DDs for being terrible. Are they not the most influencial surface ship? Are they unimportant, despite DDs being in such small numbers in most matches?

they are, but it dosnt mean they are easy to play, or fun.

 

especially if you try to PTFO

[Reinhard_of_Avercland]

1 hour ago, Verytis said:

Seriously, I don't understand why people keep trying to crap on DDs for being terrible. Are they not the most influencial surface ship? Are they unimportant, despite DDs being in such small numbers in most matches?

They want to play a ship class with literally zero risks but highly rewarding.

- Cruisers are hard countered by BBs.

- BBs are hard countered by torps from any ships (and some HE spammers).

- CVs are hard countered by "AA blob".

Those are the things these entitled players never notice.

Come to think of it, the camping BB trend started even before the HE spammers became common because the DDs were left unchecked.

[Manacetamol]

1 hour ago, Verytis said:

Seriously, I don't understand why people keep trying to crap on DDs for being terrible. Are they not the most influencial surface ship? Are they unimportant, despite DDs being in such small numbers in most matches?

90% from DDs, wad fun, its all about CVs

Bomb Torpedo Rocket one by one strike DD down to the bottom

Full time be spotted by Aircraft

 

[EULA_violator]

30 minutes ago, MatterCore said:

90% from DDs, wad fun, its all about CVs

Bomb Torpedo Rocket one by one strike DD down to the bottom

Full time be spotted by Aircraft

 

how do you have 10k more battles than me and less detonations

[Manacetamol]

12 minutes ago, drakon233 said:

how do you have 10k more battles than me and less detonations

stop RANDOM and play COOP

reason >> BOTS everywhere

[Mechfori]

2 hours ago, Sir_Feather said:

They want to play a ship class with literally zero risks but highly rewarding.

- Cruisers are hard countered by BBs.

- BBs are hard countered by torps from any ships (and some HE spammers).

- CVs are hard countered by "AA blob".

Those are the things these entitled players never notice.

Come to think of it, the camping BB trend started even before the HE spammers became common because the DDs were left unchecked.

Actually the camper start not because of anything special, its just players who all wanting the farming but not wanting to even tank a single digit damage, had nothing to do with DD or HE spamming it happen way earlier but is now amplified since WG introduce so many Super Cruiser, Premium BB which had all of speed, armor, HP , and LONG RANGE guns

[Mechfori]

8 hours ago, Verytis said:

Seriously, I don't understand why people keep trying to crap on DDs for being terrible. Are they not the most influencial surface ship? Are they unimportant, despite DDs being in such small numbers in most matches?

Because while DD are very influential if play right and can contribute tactically , those do not reward, what reward in this game is damage dealing and DD are robe of their damage dealing since way back when nerf after nerf had done to them and update give more and more spotting advantage to anyone so DD lost its one most important weapon, Stealth. And tha of course coupled with lack of range .. now that game meta is mid to long range duelling say 16, 18 even 20 KM out, really which DD had a 20KM gun rage, and there's only ( if I recall it right ) 3 ship that had 20KM torp, one being Yoshino. Somers the new premium DD are now equipped with 16.5KM torp .. seriously with that and Frisk basically WG are admitting that without these over the top gun or torp spec DD simply cannot fight on equal term and this is a game if a BB is allowed to do 100K+ / 200K+ damage regular without too much risk, Cruiser can do likewise using HE spamming and targeting DD, and not to say CV .. DD player sees that what they are provided is simply out guned , out ranged , and without proper compensation in stealth .. don't bother with the speed, you had cruisers and BB now sail faster than a DD.

Part of that issue had to do with DD being the class with practically zero margin of error and no tolerance to any damage taken .. BB and Cruiser can tank somewhat and take it. DD cannot and most of the old timer DD like the IJN are specified to do stealth and torp, but now you had torp that are out ranged, and stealth no where to be found. And why is that, cause their specification is still standing as they were before CV ( and not CV rework ) , before Radar , before all the OP Premiums , ...

the whole DD class need some significant revamp , I've mentioned this many time ... if WG aim for DD to play by speed, maneuvering, stealth, and torp then the must be given the tools to do that and made it work at the current game state of play, there are many thing that can be done but of course WG will not do it no matter what its clearly their BIG guns only mind set at play

 

[PGM991]

I wish they bring old economic back

remember?, there's time that solo capping the base give HUGE amount of xp

to the level that even BB want to cap themselves CV include

as a DD main,that time I no longer yearn for torpedo hit to make some reward, just focus of capping is reward me handsomely

 

ha...... it's ancient history now....

these days capping give very low reward yet extremely high risk... for a ship as fragile as DD with so many tool to kill them out right....

[Mechfori]

well almost all the right tactical move a DD can contribute to a victory pay nothing .. you go out and screen the flank and the front you put yourself at risk trying to stay stealth and spot, sorry spotting that salvos and salvos of torp pay nothing. Your spotting damage return limit only to the first salvo at best and not even that if the enemy open up first so spotting do contribute but you are at best minamally rewarded, Scouting ahead or out wide, you risk being focus and cross fired and of course these days do not expect your Cruiser / BB to be even anywhere near to do CLOSE support , and even if they are near they dearly do not do close support. Capping is perhaps the only that reward but the risk is too great with so little return ; if its so important then all the tea would do to try to cap , right ... well wrong sorry all the guns do is finding the largest piece of rock to hide behind and start sniping to farm damage, Radar ships if its your won, they stay too far behind to even cover the area and frequently will not Radar at all , and on the enemy side, well sorry, your teammate care of none cause they had worse concealment , they will be spotted anyway ; no amount of plea will get them to focus  fire and take down that Radar ASAP, sorry they are busy doing their own farming on that slow and sitting camper BB.

And as far as CV in this meta .. well well .. you can see why .. pretty much most AA ship simply will NOT provide the need close support AA cover at all .. yes many hate CV but to be honest don't all of us surface ship player had to shoulder a part of the  blame as well ; and yes its all too wrong to had CV having no other function other than to bully on already the weakest of the fleet ( DDs ) but  also its all too wrong that these days big gun / camping / farming strategy really take away all the tactical team work and basically made victims of anyone who dare to even go out and do some real fight .. so you go do the right thing to try to gain  a victory, you are penalized for doing that, you sit, camp, and farm, you are rewarded no matter if its victory or defeat .. guess why so few light force even bother to play anymore and if they do they refuse to do their vanguard duties , and CV simply happen to be thrown into this and aggravate  the already bad state of play.

 

[Puggsley]

I love DDs and my approach towards teamwork is really simple.

My starting point is my team will back me up and I need to put pressure on caps. Mostly I will wait for the enemy dd to try to cap first so I can launch some rpf torps before moving in. I ping rpf direction if there is a CV to see if I can work with him guiding planes onto dds. If I see him steer to this then I know its going to be OK.

While all this is going on I am carefully watching how my support guns are targeting ships i spot. Do they switch to CA/CL/Radar ships when they are spotted or do they keep shooting at BBs? If they switch to the ships they are a hard counter for then I know its going to be OK. Otherwise they are farmers.

Another bad sign is a clump of BB and CA/CL huddled very close behind an island. These guys are just farmers.

If they don't do this then I know I am alone and will play for that. These guys are just interested in farming and its just moved into more likely a loss game.

So I need to play selfishly as well. I'll focus on torping, and start moving to another flank to see if its different there. Its hilarious to see the sudden and continued pinging of "I need intelligence information" as you sail away from them.

I don't mind getting bugger all damage on a win, but be damned if I will accept the shabby rewards for team play on a loss.

[Ryuuoh_DeltaPlus]

15 hours ago, Verytis said:

Seriously, I don't understand why people keep trying to crap on DDs for being terrible. Are they not the most influencial surface ship? Are they unimportant, despite DDs being in such small numbers in most matches?

It's probably from pleb DD mains who want their easy mode "low-risk high-reward" DDs to stay that way. They got too spoiled when early in the game's history DDs can just run wild without learning learning actual skill. 
Every single time I see people who whine how "DDs are so bad now" and the like, most of the time the whiners will then say they want "knife-fighting in caps" or "actually threatening 20km Shima torps" back. Which, to say, are very subpar ways to play DDs especially in today's meta.

[Ryuuoh_DeltaPlus]

11 hours ago, Mechfori said:

the whole DD class need some significant revamp , I've mentioned this many time ... if WG aim for DD to play by speed, maneuvering, stealth, and torp then the must be given the tools to do that and made it work at the current game state of play, there are many thing that can be done but of course WG will not do it no matter what its clearly their BIG guns only mind set at play

What you are suggesting still won't work. If you buff DDs by your methods, shitters will still be shitters and good to unicum players will become even better.

[Reinhard_of_Avercland]

2 minutes ago, Ryuuoh_DeltaPlus said:

What you are suggesting still won't work. If you buff DDs by your methods, shitters will still be shitters and good to unicum players will become even better.

French DDs in a nutshell. Bad DD players will say they are useless without smoke, but unicum DD players who enjoys Khaba can wreck havoc more easily.

[Ryuuoh_DeltaPlus]

6 minutes ago, Sir_Feather said:

French DDs in a nutshell. Bad DD players will say they are useless without smoke, but unicum DD players who enjoys Khaba can wreck havoc more easily.

I clearly remember the time when French DDs were first announced and during their testing how almost everyone is screeching "French DDs are dead on arrival" "because they don't have smoke". And then we jump to present day, where French DDs, notably mid-high-tier French DDs, wreak havoc, especially in competitive modes.

[Reinhard_of_Avercland]

14 minutes ago, Ryuuoh_DeltaPlus said:

I clearly remember the time when French DDs were first announced and during their testing how almost everyone is screeching "French DDs are dead on arrival" "because they don't have smoke". And then we jump to present day, where French DDs, notably mid-high-tier French DDs, wreak havoc, especially in competitive modes.

Exactly what I meant!

The fact that French DDs have no smoke (except Aigle of course) is most likely based on the feedback about radar becoming more common. I mean, why even bother about radar when the French DDs are designed for open water combat? Another fact that French DDs sacrifice concealment for better gun performance at range is based on the state of the game where CVs are so common. In fact CVs' presence do more good than harm for the French DDs because they can work together at dealing with the stealthy DDs.

But it all boils down on who play the French DDs themselves which is already self-explanatory.

[Brunswickz]

Spoiler

This might be not a popular idea, about the close support thing or camping playstyle.

A rather weird idea, how about to delete any ship citadel.

I know citadel feels good.

But non citadel hit has already A-OK to me.

Many cases why a BB run straight to oblivion, because he afraid to made a turn, afraid of citadel hit.

Why they fixed at distance, because they don't want to risk citadel from an unknown cross fire. There still HE spam,

but with the risk getting citadel is gone, HE also should be more tolerable since they can turning without a huge risk being citadel-ed.

Citadel hit is like a pin threat at chess, move this piece, i'll take your precious one.

Same goes to cruisers.

Ship showing broadside still getting punished but not an OHKO situation.

The relation of this with CV, it eliminates AP bomb citadel hits. Also expecting more AA cover for vanguards with now larger ships are not in risk being citadel.

 

XOR

Every ship need more mobility in the term of rudder shift, turning circle, or acceleration. Especially BBs.

This is a lot more harder to do since WG need to eye each ship carefully, one can't be too OP at wiggling, just like the old Khaba.

The relation of this with CV, that is easier now to dodge any bombers. Also i'm expecting all ships on the move instead stationary.

It isn't like the current state of an aerial torp drop on a CA, starting drop at her aft, to lock her course, turn 360, now at her side.

I know even taking one or two torps is not biggie, and it requires a lot of concentration from the CV player exactly why we now have rants from both sides.

CV aerial torps need to be more faster IMO to remove this locking technique.

This also can somewhat mitigate the effect of DDs torpedo soup.

 

It is a XOR, i'm afraid implementing both of them at the same time is good? Maybe?

 

That OHKO mechanism or a huge damage spike is one that preventing WoWs being an e-Sport IMO.

Surely Counter Strike has a lot of fans but similarly they have camping problems.

If we looking to Street Fighter, DoTA, Starcraft, i don't think i can find a single click execution OHKO.

But a chain of skills.

 

Maybe i'm too sensitive about citadel, i know the probability to a complete write off is rare with a lot RNG involved, then again, that's it.

RNG is the second block. Still has no idea about this one. Until the game has something resemble a trajectory plotting mechanism, i don't think it will be gone.

You know, like PangYa, Interplanetary. Example of games with some kind of control instead of RNG, although i don't think they're appoppriate for WoWs.

 

CV sighting need a nerf,

It need a consummable with infinite ammo, "Radio broadcast" to tell the sighting to nearby allies (not a whole map).

Until then, the sight is only known to the respective CV only.

 

To compensate, torpedo bomber deal a little bit better damage, especially for US CVs.

Actually i had a dream doing danmaku in the skies with the new CV rework, but it didn't happen.

Delete some rocket planes, and make any bomber flight accompanied with fighter escorts.

Not that consummable. So when two squadrons met in the sky, they will try to shooting down one another.

The Escort will engage hostile Escort first before they hunt bombers.

AAA will affect bombers first before the Escort, as they usually flies higher.

Escort has one third of the bomb payload, so dive bombers will lost some of its bomb capacity when engaging another planes at anytime during the flight.

Although they don't contribute anything for torpedo bombers.

The old fighter consummable is not gone, it still exists. Just can't be used while engaged by either AAA or when in a certain radius to another hostile aircraft.

Activating Radio Broadcast will also affect the fighter consummable in CAP as well.

Killing 10% from maximum initial number of hostile CVs plane capacity will add a small victory points of 1 for the team.

 

Torpedo belt protection need to be upgraded for several BBs. Now with less risk being citadel or no citadel at all, shielding torps to the section can be an alternative.

Being said torps, it would affect aerial and sub torps as well.

With those incentives, i think the game is more dynamic. Some may see it an attempt to buff BB, no, they're happy to take broadside damage more often than bow tanking.

Bow tanking offer them some degree of invincibility but they will lose strategic points, tho being said it still not enough.

About bow tanking, i think it need a huge overhaul to make it less rewarding. Ofc in tandem with the citadel or mobility being reworked as i described before.

Should it start with ricochet angle? It might make RN and Italian ships great again.

Actually it would benefit regular AP as well.

At WoWs i only could see this is the only solution to prevent frontal citadel hit. Why it has to be citadel?

Dreadnought Admiral academy approach to ship armor is more palatable to me. Although id say citadel hit and detonation is not appoppriate for an arcade styled game.

Ricochet will still exists, they will not completely gone. But it would feel like a ship than a tank.

I think that's the more perfect explanation to address the CV,

I can't say exactly a spot right to the core problem, because it is a chain of many things. I want to avoid mole whacking.

 

A non existent citadel condition surely will render some heavy caliber-less guns ships will feel underwhelming.

But why not increasing their damage instead relying on citadel hits. That's meant to be BIG.

 

How about to face that IRL ships do have citadel, i think the game should address the more pressing matters than that.

How about it will dumbify the game further. At the expense of one historically accurate depiction in the game, we got plenty more of them. Now you must actively dodging, moving than dead in the water. CV is getting more complex. BB is getting more action. DD will get the deserved escort, also they wont as easy to be picked by enemy team due perma spotting, CL/CA will be less punishable than it should.

 

I still feel there must be a lack somewhere with this long explanation, but i'm trying.

I suggest to read this as one complete set of changes, thanks.

 

Long.

[Reinhard_of_Avercland]

7 minutes ago, Brunswickz said:

Many cases why a BB run straight to oblivion, because he afraid to made a turn, afraid of citadel hit.

Why they fixed at distance, because they don't want to risk citadel from an unknown cross fire. There still HE spam,

My BB games in 2 lines.

As weird as they sound, they are relatable. I will either do one trip which end up bow tanking before getting killed (although end up winning the game sometimes) or stay away from the start as I watch the others die (mostly when the enemy team has Asashio).

[dejiko_nyo]

The problem and solution is clearly obvious: The skilled players are skewing the spreadsheet.

[Puggsley]

1 hour ago, Ryuuoh_DeltaPlus said:

It's probably from pleb DD mains who want their easy mode "low-risk high-reward" DDs to stay that way. 

Its not just DDs who want low risk high rewards though is it?

Everyone wants that, its nothing more than human behaviour. Its the consequences of designing rewards around that which mess with good gameplay.

Look at all the damage farmers so common today. Damage is the prime reward metric and that's how people play.

Is it that because of the roles DDs play in an effective team? Its much more noticeable when they play poorly and don't do all the high risk low/no reward activities that contribute to a greater chance of winning? Screening torps for your BBs, it certainly helps your team but how does it help the DD? Spending time in front of BB to keep enemy DD at arms length, helps the BB but the DD is getting nothing for it but risking detection and being fired at by relatively close enemies. Instead he could be sailing around a flank doing a terrible job but getting the chance of sinking an enemy BB, because damage is king. 

Isn't it about operating as a team with each class doing its various roles and supporting each other? The reward system would need to be tweaked to make playing in this style more profitable.

Otherwise its a vicious cycle. And hardly surprising.

DDs get not a lot of benefit from capping or spotting, even more so when you know your support ships are not in any position to put real pressure on enemy cappers. So there is a reasonable incentive to not play with good teamwork and focus on dealing damage. In addition, large clumps of BB/CA/CL hiding behind islands wanting zero risk high damage makes for a really really tempting torp area attack. Especially when damage is king as far as rewards go. 

There is a benefit to shooting at smaller health ships, but maybe that mechanism is not well understood. Maybe make healed hp damage worth less? Or have XP of each ship worth a set amount, regardless of how much is healed. If it takes you 50k damage to sink it you get 300xp, If it takes 100k damage to sink it because it heals then each hit point of damage is only worth half the first case. Maybe its like that? 

Its interesting in the current Ranked Battles in WoT there is a strong move away from damage being the primary metric.

They have defined desirable actions from different classes with XP being directly attributed to those actions, as well as damage. For example heavy tanks are rewarded for bouncing damage and for dealing damage at closer ranges (discouraging sniping - you don't get much reward for that). 

Capping doesn't play nearly as important a role in WoT as it does in WoWS which adds something additional.  

A move to do that might make it more obvious what good play is for various classes and encourage different classes to act with greater teamwork. 

 

[dejiko_nyo]

9 minutes ago, Puggsley said:

Look at all the damage farmers so common today. Damage is the prime reward metric and that's how people play.

As one of the few people that belongs to the "damage should not be a/the prime metric" faction, I will quote the opposing camp's favourite useless quote and the reason why this remains unchanged: "Damage matters".

The problem with damage as a metric is particularly evident when people stay in a safe zone and just farm without consideration towards the state of the battle. I do not mind having to work for the improved XP but for some ships, the amount of effort to achieve that is stupidly ridiculous.

[Grygus_Triss]

Thread named Aircraft Carriers.

Currently talking about DDs.

Derailment check.

[dejiko_nyo]

1 minute ago, Grygus_Triss said:

Thread named Aircraft Carriers.

Currently talking about DDs.

Derailment check.

Good.