WG: Thunderer Should be Half the Coal Price to Conqueror Owners

[ShaddowAU]

Wargaming,

As you nerfed the RN tier 10 tech line BB Conqueror in update 0.8.8 and stole her 457mm main gun option to give that to Thunderer, your "new", Coal only purchasable, clone of Conqueror, I believe it is only fair that anyone who had unlocked Conqueror, or had commenced working on the RN BB tech line prior to update 0.8.8 should be given a voucher to purchase Thunderer at half the normal Coal price (once they have unlocked Conqueror). Players invest considerable time and effort, and sometimes also money, into researching a ship line with the final goal to unlock the pinnacle tier 10 ship of that line. People generally know the options and characteristics of the ship they are working towards and when they finally unlock that reward to then discover you have taken, without compensation, a major component from that ship, and then are trying to sell that component back to them as part of a "new" version of effectively the same ship is totally wrong on any ethical or moral grounds.

For me I've finally unlocked Conqueror today and what should have been something exciting quickly turned to disappointment and anger as I realised I had been jipped when I discovered my new Conqueror didn't have the option to change to the 457mm main guns, an options I've known about since I first looked into the Conqueror and started working on the RN BB line. I imagine that in your Terms and Conditions for using WoWS you probably have clauses in there giving you the right to change aspects of ships for balancing purposes. I argue that there is balancing and then there is outright stealing a module from a ship to give it to a repackaged version of the same ship, the two are not the same.

Wargaming please do the right thing and compensate Conqueror owners by, for example, giving them a substantial discount on Thunderer. For those who owned Conqueror and have since purchased Thunderer please consider giving them a partial Coal refund.

 

PS. The current in-game description for Conqueror:

"This ship was designed as a battleship with increased firepower on the basis of the British experience in ship construction gained during World War II. The project was notable for the 457 mm main guns, which were developed in the early 1920s and were the most powerful British naval artillery systems."

So WG where are these 457mm guns mentioned here, you know the ones we grinded our a$$es of to get? That's right you stole them. To everyone with Conqueror, or working towards it; the 457mm guns may not have been everyone's favourite choice, you may not even miss them but the fact is you earned them, but they stole them from you without compensating you for it or even instead adding something else to Conqueror to replace them. For WG celebration of WoWS' 4th birthday they stole this module from you so they could resell them back to you as "Thundered". So what will WG steal off us for their next celebration?

 

PPS. To any troll that might attack me for making this suggestion; just imagine that one day your favourite ship in WoWS, whatever that is, suddenly had a major module removed from it and then WG tried to sell you a clone of that ship with that module in it. I think you would be fairly and rightfully pissed off, so think of that before you add any snide comments here.

[LawrenceXVIII]

They did gave me FXP and Credits when Thunderer was a thing.

 

[ShaddowAU]

1 minute ago, LawrenceXVIII said:

They did gave me FXP and Credits when Thunderer was a thing.

 

Hold on, what did they actually give you and why?

[LawrenceXVIII]

3 minutes ago, ShaddowAU said:

Hold on, what did they actually give you and why?

Players thoroughly enjoyed the 419 mm guns on Conqueror because of the high damage per minute that her HE shells could cause—a feature that perfectly matches the other operational capabilities of the ship. Instead of doing the same with the 457 mm guns, we've decided to mount them on Thunderer where these large-caliber guns will play a key role in shaping the ship's specific gameplay. For that reason, the 457 mm/45 Mk II guns will no longer be available on Conqueror. If you’ve already researched these guns, you’ll get 35,000 Free XP. If you’ve already purchased them, you'll get 2,500,000 credits. If you had those guns placed on the battleship, they will be replaced with the 419 mm/45 Mk II guns, even if you don't have them in your Inventory.

---

[LawrenceXVIII]

https://worldofwarships.asia/en/news/game-updates/update-088-fourth-anniversary/

Scroll down to find Thunderer.

[ShaddowAU]

12 minutes ago, LawrenceXVIII said:

https://worldofwarships.asia/en/news/game-updates/update-088-fourth-anniversary/

Scroll down to find Thunderer.

WTF? They completely steal a module from a ship and all they do is compensate you for the XP and Credits it cost to unlock it, if you had, and nothing if you didn't, and also nothing to compensate stealing that module from a ship you've grinded your a$$ off to earn, that is total B.S. and what everyone is ok with that? Yeah WG celebrates WoWS 4th birthday by stealing s#!t off their customers. It doesn't matter if you never used or liked the 457mm guns, you earned them and they stole them to sell them back to you all, that is totally f#@ked.

[LawrenceXVIII]

7 minutes ago, ShaddowAU said:

WTF? They completely steal a module from a ship and all they do is compensate you for the XP and Credits it cost to unlock it, if you had, and nothing if you didn't and also nothing to compensate stealing that module from a ship you've grinded your a$$ off to earn, that is total B.S. and what everyone is ok with that?

 

I was the same boat as you are but , I had to accept it.

Actually some of us ain't okay with that, but to be fair mate, nobody uses 457mm cannon. 80% of Conqueror main don't used that cuz of poor volume of barrage. They stick to 419mm due to high volume , Massive Fire chance for easier Witherer &/or Arsonist, Can make Hindenburg eat HE that cause between 12K - 21K Damage, Low amount of hit and miss and Better efficient to reload than 8 guns on it.

Weegee make a Alternative anyway, by taking away that gun due to unpopularity . So they became Thunderer. End of Story, Weegee is TF2 Reskinned.

[Grygus_Triss]

Heh, just noticed the Conquerors description mentioned the 457 guns and thought I would mention it in you other thread, then noticed you already had it in a thread.. Purely because I find it funny when WG make a ship, describe it a certain way in in game description, then change the ship so it doesn't match that description... Or build it different in the first place (i.e. Akizuki "was specifically designed to provide AA defense" a role she was unable to provide in game because she lacked DefAA, since the rework, I have no idea how she fares now, but for most of her in game career, she could not hold a candle to the US DDs)

So, my only complaint is that the description is inaccurate, all it provides is a little historical information, too bad those people who designed her didn't realise she would be much more effective if they used the 3x 419 guns 😛

So, my question is: Should WG update the in game description to match the ship as it is in game? Or leave it to reference the 'historical' information?

 

So, onto the topic of the thread. You appear to have grinded the whole of the UK BB line to get the Conqueror with the 457 guns, only to have WG remove them with relatively little warning, and no reimbursement if you were grinding the line specifically for those guns. Not sure why... but each to their own I suppose. And you are rightly annoyed that they changed the ship and removed them and not provide you any reimbursement for the fact that you grinded the line.

Unfortunately, this sort of thing has been happening for the entire history of WoWS, stuff changes, ships get 'rebalanced' and people lose bits of the ship they loved. I felt similar when they removed the duel Smoke generator and Torpedo reload booster from Shiratsuyu, and when they changed the firing detection ranges, meaning you could no longer stealth fire. But I adapted and got over it.

In most cases, if a change is really unpopular, the community will stand up and fight it, and occasionally stop it, but there are few changes that are not wanted by at least some of the community. In this case, there was almost no one against it, no uproar... maybe that's because they didn't annonce it sooner and only did it as a last minute 'you know, that makes sense' move, or maybe, its because the 457s weren't really that popular anyway, which they weren't, as @LawrenceXVIII says.

It is a blow for the few people who liked using them or wanted them, It personally does not matter to me, I was never grinding Conq for big guns, that's Yamato's job, and I would have said that if anyone else wanted big guns, go Yamato or the Russian T10.

But that aside, all I can suggest is take you case to a WoWS staffer, make you case, argue for an entire reset of the UK BB line and compensation in equivalent FXP and credits. Won't get you Thunderer unless they give you coal, but that's an even longer shot than what I'm suggesting.

Other than that, you can either learn to love the 419s, grind another line, or start collecting coal for Thunderer.

Or, if you're entirely fed up with WG, quit the game, always that option, some people have done it, and I've never heard them complain... mostly because they don't tend to use these channels once they've left.

[Reinhard_of_Avercland]

I don't consider the removal of the 457mm guns a nerf. Conqueror's cooldown for DMGcon & heal have been shortened which allow the ship to tank against the HE spammers better than before (unless you lack of guts to push to begin with). The effectiveness of the heal has also been buffed from 60% of max hp to 75% of max hp which means even Smolensk cannot sink the ship as easily as the other BBs.

[mr_glitchy_R]

Calm down. At least show your gratitude. It's better to have Conqueror rather than not. Seriously, it's just a bloody module. You don't even know how it performs. People don't like the 457 option because of its shell volume and its pathetic dispersion. And so, WG release another ship with the 457 mm with better dispersion. Also, the nerf wasn't actually a nerf. WG compensate her citadel rising with a better heal. You can still couple that with flags. And how is that not enough for you?

[Grygus_Triss]

@ShaddowAU If you don’t mind me asking, why did you want the 457 Conqueror in the first place? What was the appeal?

Generally speaking, if you wanted big guns, Yamato was better with the overmatching, where as Conq’s 457s were considered underwhelming.

So unless you just really wanted big guns on a UK BB...?

[ShaddowAU]

19 minutes ago, Grygus_Triss said:

@ShaddowAU If you don’t mind me asking, why did you want the 457 Conqueror in the first place? What was the appeal?

Generally speaking, if you wanted big guns, Yamato was better with the overmatching, where as Conq’s 457s were considered underwhelming.

So unless you just really wanted big guns on a UK BB...?

I didn't want a 457 Conqueror, I wanted the 419 & 457 Conqueror that I spent probably hundreds of hours grinding to unlock. As I said in the OP, it doesn't matter if most people preferred the 419 guns, WG just stole the choice off us so they could repackage the 457 guns and sell them back to us. If they want to take the 457 guns and put them on a Conqueror clone that's fine, just adequately compensate the Conqueror owners you stole these guns from by either giving them that clone ship (which WG wouldn't do in a fit) or make it easier for the people who grinded up to Conqueror to now get that clone version.

[Reinhard_of_Avercland]

2 hours ago, ShaddowAU said:

I didn't want a 457 Conqueror, I wanted the 419 & 457 Conqueror that I spent probably hundreds of hours grinding to unlock. As I said in the OP, it doesn't matter if most people preferred the 419 guns, WG just stole the choice off us so they could repackage the 457 guns and sell them back to us. If they want to take the 457 guns and put them on a Conqueror clone that's fine, just adequately compensate the Conqueror owners you stole these guns from by either giving them that clone ship (which WG wouldn't do in a fit) or make it easier for the people who grinded up to Conqueror to now get that clone version.

That was an unwanted choice though. I mean why would the Conqueror players switch to AP if an HE salvo deals high but very consistent damage? I'm totally fine they compensated it in free exp & credits which is better than nothing. And the thing about Thunderer is; just because someone feels good with Conqueror, that does not necessarily mean the same player would enjoy Thunderer.

And giving a certain group of players such a high tier ship just because they feel backed by certain conditions, that would usually end up with the ship being pulled out from sales because the ship becomes too common in a short period.

[Grygus_Triss]

2 hours ago, ShaddowAU said:

I didn't want a 457 Conqueror, I wanted the 419 & 457 Conqueror that I spent probably hundreds of hours grinding to unlock. As I said in the OP, it doesn't matter if most people preferred the 419 guns, WG just stole the choice off us so they could repackage the 457 guns and sell them back to us. If they want to take the 457 guns and put them on a Conqueror clone that's fine, just adequately compensate the Conqueror owners you stole these guns from by either giving them that clone ship (which WG wouldn't do in a fit) or make it easier for the people who grinded up to Conqueror to now get that clone version.

So... you basically wanted two ships for the price of one, despite that fact that most players consider one of those ships vastly superior over the other.

I've never played Conqueror myself (only up to Monarch), so I can only rely on the opinions of the community regarding the specific ship. But in my experience, when you have a choice of two modules on a ship, you generally pick one and stay with it. Most people who have played Conqueror 457s appear to have come tom the conclusion that the 419sa are better, and switched back. Would I have liked the opportunity to try for myself? Maybe? Suppose it would be nice, but as I've said elsewhere; I'm grinding the UK BB line for the 12x 419 guns of HE pyromaniac joy, if I want big AP guns, I use Yamato, and I'm good with that, each ship has a specific flavour, and you don't get one trying to be an inferior version. If I had tried the 457s, I probably would have switched back to the 419s too.

I can understand why you would be annoyed, but WG make decisions like that all the time, its something you either have to adapt to, or fight. In this case, you didn't get the chance to fight, because the rest of the community didn't, so, sometimes you lose, at least they didn't change a premium ship you paid money on.

[ShaddowAU]

7 minutes ago, Sir_Feather said:

That was an unwanted choice though. I mean why would the Conqueror players switch to AP if an HE salvo deals high but very consistent damage? I'm totally fine they compensated it in free exp & credits which is better than nothing. And the thing about Thunderer is; just because someone feels good with Conqueror, that does not necessarily mean the same player would enjoy Thunderer.

And giving a certain group of players such a high tier ship just because they feel backed by certain conditions, that would usually end up with the ship being pulled out from sales because the ship becomes too common in a short period.

They didn't compensate you for removing 457mm guns, all they did was refund the XP (as FXP) and Credits you spent on unlocking and buying that module. They didn't compensate you or me at all for stealing that module completely from the ship.

As for removing ships from sale because they become too popular, well that is another issue in hypocrisy. For example In tier 10 matches probably 75% of DDs are Shimakaze (I don't know if that is just a regional thing etc.) but you don't see them removing the Shimakaze from the tech tree because its too popular. Lets be real; the removal of the Musashi was purely a money making thing. Once people heard the Mushi was going to be removed from sale it became one of the most desirable ships and people then did what I did, spend real cash on Doubloons so they could convert their normal XP on their ships to FXP so they could buy it. Funny they also removed the Kronshtadt at the same time for supposedly the same reason yet almost no one was using it and they probably thought there'd be a run on the Kronshtadt as well to make more money, which didn't happen. I'm not aware of any Coal or Steel ships that have been removed for over popularity, probably because can't buy Coal of Steel with real money (unless they have more pay cash for Steel earning missions etc.). If they made Thunderer half price to Conqueror players, yes there would be a glut of Thunderer in matches for a while but eventually it would settle down and what would be the harm anyway if it didn't, players would just be using Thunderer instead of their Conqueror.

[ShaddowAU]

39 minutes ago, Grygus_Triss said:

So... you basically wanted two ships for the price of one, despite that fact that most players consider one of those ships vastly superior over the other.

I've never played Conqueror myself (only up to Monarch), so I can only rely on the opinions of the community regarding the specific ship. But in my experience, when you have a choice of two modules on a ship, you generally pick one and stay with it. Most people who have played Conqueror 457s appear to have come tom the conclusion that the 419sa are better, and switched back. Would I have liked the opportunity to try for myself? Maybe? Suppose it would be nice, but as I've said elsewhere; I'm grinding the UK BB line for the 12x 419 guns of HE pyromaniac joy, if I want big AP guns, I use Yamato, and I'm good with that, each ship has a specific flavour, and you don't get one trying to be an inferior version. If I had tried the 457s, I probably would have switched back to the 419s too.

I can understand why you would be annoyed, but WG make decisions like that all the time, its something you either have to adapt to, or fight. In this case, you didn't get the chance to fight, because the rest of the community didn't, so, sometimes you lose, at least they didn't change a premium ship you paid money on.

Lion has the option between 406mm guns and 419mm guns, are you saying that is unfair or RN BB players are greedy and want two T9 BB for the price of one? Conqueror had, since its introduction, the choice between 419mm guns and 457mm guns, that was the package of "Conqueror" that people like me have invested countless hours and effort into earning.

This is like someone in, for example a cooler European country, buying a car that is advertised to have air conditioning, and then the manufacturer recalls the car, removes the air con and just gives it back it them with no replacement or compensation. Then to add salt to the wound they then introduce a new special model of that car and its main selling point is its air conditioning. Its possible most owners of the normal car may not have really use that air con before it was removed but if any car manufacturer tried to pull a stunt like that there would be a huge up-roar and hail and brimstones would end up raining down on that company. WG just pulled the air con out of everyone's Conqueror and are now selling a special model of Conqueror called the Thunderer and its selling point is air con. WG where too lazy to even remove the section in the Conqueror brochure about its air con so new potential buyers would now know its gone. I'm surprised more people aren't pi$$ed about this, or are people just resolved to accept they got f#@ked over by WG. I know when I'm on the bridge of my Conqueror my blood is boiling as I see all these Thunderer sailing around cool as a cucumber with the air con that was ripped out of my ship.

[RalphTheTheatreCat]

On 10/11/2019 at 6:01 AM, ShaddowAU said:

WTF? They completely steal a module from a ship and all they do is compensate you for the XP and Credits it cost to unlock it, if you had, and nothing if you didn't, and also nothing to compensate stealing that module from a ship you've grinded your a$$ off to earn,.

Which is exactly what they have done with every single ship in the game they have changed so its nothing new.    It was the same with CV changes so why should you get an extra entitlement?

 

[ShaddowAU]

23 minutes ago, RalphTheTheatreCat said:

Which is exactly what they have done with every single ship in the game they have changed so its nothing new.    It was the same with CV changes so why should you get an extra entitlement?

 

You say this is what they have done to every ship, why didn't everyone effectively push back? I keep hearing how nothing ever can be done to rebalance Premium ships as people paid really money for them. I'm surprised I have to point this out to people but a tier 10 tech-line ship for example is really worth a fortune, fair more than any Premium you can buy, as tech-line ships require an insane amount of time to unlock and your time has value. In economics there is the principle that everything has a value other than money know as "Opportunity Cost", the indeterminate cost of the time and resources invested into something compared to something else that you could have invested those in for a greater return. So why do people do nothing when they mess with tech-line ship, which are the most valuable ships of all, yet go to town on them if they dare touch Premiums?

Anyhow I don't see how this is the same as in this case anyway, unlike the others you talk about, they have removed a module from this ship and are now trying to sell it back to you in a Premium clone version of the ship they stole it from.

[RalphTheTheatreCat]

3 minutes ago, ShaddowAU said:

Anyhow I don't see how this is the same as in this case anyway, unlike the others you talk about, they have removed a module from this ship and are now trying to sell it back to you in a Premium clone version of the ship they stole it from

So they removed every odd tier CV and then had a big sale on premium CVs.  Seems pretty similar to your example.

 

People accepted the compensation because it was fair.

[ShaddowAU]

9 minutes ago, RalphTheTheatreCat said:

So they removed every odd tier CV and then had a big sale on premium CVs.  Seems pretty similar to your example.

 

People accepted the compensation because it was fair.

I don't think the monumental mess change that was the CV rework equates to the one-off case of Conqueror and Thunderer. Anyway they didn't remove those odd-tier ships and then sell those same ships back to everyone repackaged as premiums and those new premium CVs are unique ships. I'm not pretending what happened with CV was right or totally fair just that issue is not really the same as the one I'm arguing about. Also I have received no compensation at all for WG stealing a module from my ship, that's not fair.

[RalphTheTheatreCat]

34 minutes ago, ShaddowAU said:

Also I have received no compensation at all for WG stealing a module from my ship, that's not fair.

Didn't you get the ship AFTER the changes?   Why do you think you deserve compensation?  

 

[ShaddowAU]

6 minutes ago, RalphTheTheatreCat said:

Didn't you get the ship AFTER the changes?   Why do you think you deserve compensation?  

 

Because I've spent probably over a year working towards unlocking this ship that I knew had the option for 457mm guns, and a couple of weeks before I finally unlocked it they stole them from the ship.

[RalphTheTheatreCat]

1 minute ago, ShaddowAU said:

Because I've spent probably over a year working towards unlocking this ship that I knew had the option for 457mm guns, and a couple of weeks before I finally unlocked it they stole them from the ship.

Uh huh.....…...so no

[Grygus_Triss]

Ok, I'm done. The fact is, 457 on Conq just isn't that good. Yes, it feels like they're removing something, but in all honesty, its like removing the free toy from the box. So long as the original product can still stand up on its own. And the vast majority of players say that it can.

The 457 just wasn't worth saving. We'll save our strength for when WG wants to remove something really good.

My condolences, but 457 is gone from Conq. And the 419 will work just as well, and after a few games with 457 you will probably have gone back to 419 anyway. Enjoy.

Triss out.

[ShaddowAU]

13 minutes ago, RalphTheTheatreCat said:

Uh huh.....…...so no

I have to say I have a reasonable amount of respect for you and your input generally in this forum so don't take this as an insult etc. but if in my case I, and all Conqueror owners, should be compensated for the removal of the 457mm guns so WG could repackage them in a premium clone ship, that is not for you to decide. Its sad that you and some others in the forum can't see or admit that this was total BS on WG part.