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Watboy

Another buff German BB thread

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I finally got the Kreml, and was a fairly enjoyable line with the close in lasers and HE shattering platting. Soyuz was quite fun, and there were no stinkers in the line like the old Izumo, or the slow as molasses Colorado. Afterwards I decided to re-grind the German BB line for Research Points. It was the first BB line I played, and the GK was my first T10 ship. I had fond memories of that line, but hadn't played it in the last year or so. But regrind has been painful, FDG is not fun. Its an AP bomb magnet and seemingly always in the center of a daka-daka hurricane. If there's a CV in the game you are basically perma spotted. If I'm lucky, I'll get a few shell hits for over pens on broad side targets at 8km. To add insult to injury, I get sniped by all the new 18" battleship laser guns 18km away. I've had to respec away from full secondary to survival build, but that just takes out the special fun thing about her.

WG - line needs some love. I'd be happy with guns that can hit the side of a barn from the inside.

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1 minute ago, Watboy said:

I finally got the Kreml, and was a fairly enjoyable line with the close in lasers and HE shattering platting. Soyuz was quite fun, and there were no stinkers in the line like the old Izumo, or the slow as molasses Colorado. Afterwards I decided to re-grind the German BB line for Research Points. It was the first BB line I played, and the GK was my first T10 ship. I had fond memories of that line, but hadn't played it in the last year or so. But regrind has been painful, FDG is not fun. Its an AP bomb magnet and seemingly always in the center of a daka-daka hurricane. If there's a CV in the game you are basically perma spotted. If I'm lucky, I'll get a few shell hits for over pens on broad side targets at 8km. To add insult to injury, I get sniped by all the new 18" battleship laser guns 18km away. I've had to respec away from full secondary to survival build, but that just takes out the special fun thing about her.

WG - line needs some love. I'd be happy with guns that can hit the side of a barn from the inside.

They're gonna focus on the CV first

 

btw

 

 

Kreml is sledgehammred next patch, along with Smolensk and other.

 

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See the comments in this video

It's a LOL fest

 

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At the moment I cannot see Pala's porntube link but basically this poor neglected line has suffered badly from power creep. The original role of German battleships: CQC tankers with vaunted legendary German Dispersion, ie, cannot hit anything unless you luck in with RNG. Now: CQC? - French better especially they don't have legendary German Dispersion. Tank? Soviet ships bow on without the legendary German Dispersion. In all honestly, that hydro is useless unless you are moving since if you are stationary, you can'T torpedobeat incoming fishies effectively. Are you moving? No. Because your team is sitting at the back and now you have tanked for nothing. 

So many issues. Right now, I don't see how to correct things properly especially with the proliferation of sniping combat. Options I am thinking keep on ending up with making the gameplay even more chickeny.

Edited by dejiko_nyo
'T

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spreadsheet say the line is balans :Smile-_tongue:

b04f2aad72.png

Lowest EXP, highest win rate. Balans :Smile_trollface:

Edited by humusz

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OH. That wg feature. To be frank, I don't even bother. And whether I can see youtube at the time of writing is an issue on my end. 

And statistically speaking, the differences between the winrates is insignificant considering they are so close together.

Edited by dejiko_nyo

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45 minutes ago, humusz said:

Lowest EXP, highest win rate. Balans :Smile_trollface:

Also lowest frag rate, avg damage of the same tier and type. If not lowest, bottom quarter.

That applies to basically all German tech tree ships in the game.

 

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1 minute ago, Paladinum said:

Also lowest frag rate, avg damage of the same tier and type. If not lowest, bottom quarter.

That applies to basically all German tech tree ships in the game.

 

Summary: wg's spreadsheets cannot even be considered to be used as toilet paper.

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you dare, to Defy Glorrius Stalin approved Spreadsheet ! 

you Insolent wehraboo fools,  Soviet power supreme ! :fish_haloween:

Edited by humusz

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Comrade Stalin does not approve of capitalist accountant creations called spreadsheets. The last time someone presented a spreadsheet to Comrade Stalin:

 

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Ough i missed this thread,

 

8 hours ago, Watboy said:

 

WG - line needs some love. I'd be happy with guns that can hit the side of a barn from the inside.

Its the entire DD, CA, BB....

Did you know they called hiddenburger battleship in the old Time? Now its getting powercreeped. The DD line maybe still work but less appealing with the new DD. The battleship line is total crap. Lack of gun firepower and because HE meta, they survivability become redundant.

 

Its badly need buff

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There's a couple of issues with KM BB's.  The first is power creep - it's been a while since they came out, and the game slowly power creeps over time, it's inevitable that ships will reduce in power without buffs.

The second and more major issue is the premise of KM BB's.  In particular, I'm talking about secondaries.  Some people love strong secondaries, and many say it feels fun to watch all your secondaries firing off thousands of shells at the enemy.  This causes some issues though.  Firstly, if a ship has great secondaries, then it needs to take a hit in its main battery or it will be too strong.  So this is why KM BB's have their poor to average dispersion and sigma. 

Secondaries have a major problem though - they require zero skill.  You just have to be in range and they work, and they work the same for a potato as they do for a unicum.  What this means is it's much harder to use skill to outplay your opponent.  You actually end up with less tools you can use, rather than more, because your main battery is unreliable.  A player can use a reliable main battery to correctly choose the appropriate shell in advance, aim at the right part of the target ship, wait for the right angle and fire for a good chance at large damage.  This is real battleship play, it's fun and satisfying to do well.  I honestly think enjoyment in games comes from doing challenging things well, and overcoming difficulty to succeed.

Secondaries give you none of that.  You're basically giving up your ability as a battleship to be successful so that you can watch a pretty fireworks display.

So here's what I think they should do to KM BB's.  Significant sigma buffs across the board, by 0.2 - 0.3.  Possibly slight reload buffs as well.  Nerfs to secondary accuracy (and possibly other aspects) to compensate.  That right there is going to improve the enjoyment levels and feelings of agency of KM BB players everywhere.

If they want to maintain the secondary feel, I think they should open up the "box 'o' gimmicks!" and invent a new consumable.  "All Battery Focus" consumable - for 10 seconds you gain direct control of all weapons and may fire from all available main battery and secondary battery guns at the current player aiming point.  That at least would introduce player agency to secondaries, without them being OP.

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1 hour ago, Moggytwo said:

 

The second and more major issue is the premise of KM BB's.  In particular, I'm talking about secondaries.  Some people love strong secondaries, and many say it feels fun to watch all your secondaries firing off thousands of shells at the enemy.  This causes some issues though.  Firstly, if a ship has great secondaries, then it needs to take a hit in its main battery or it will be too strong.  So this is why KM BB's have their poor to average dispersion and sigma. 

 

Say that to Massachusetts and Georgia. KM's have the HE pen buff so I find IFHE is not needed, but manual secondaries makes a difference. For my MA and GA, I run IFHE but find that the secondaries are accurate enough that ManSec is not needed, and better to be able to have all guns blazing when things get hairy. But the MA and GA guns are vastly more dependable.

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On 10/3/2019 at 3:02 PM, dejiko_nyo said:

At the moment I cannot see Pala's porntube link but basically this poor neglected line has suffered badly from power creep. The original role of German battleships: CQC tankers with vaunted legendary German Dispersion, ie, cannot hit anything unless you luck in with RNG. Now: CQC? - French better especially they don't have legendary German Dispersion. Tank? Soviet ships bow on without the legendary German Dispersion. In all honestly, that hydro is useless unless you are moving since if you are stationary, you can'T torpedobeat incoming fishies effectively. Are you moving? No. Because your team is sitting at the back and now you have tanked for nothing. 

So many issues. Right now, I don't see how to correct things properly especially with the proliferation of sniping combat. Options I am thinking keep on ending up with making the gameplay even more chickeny.

Bismark w hydro, I can still maneuver enough to have a chance at torpedo beats. But w FDG and GK, those massive barges, Hydro means I only take 1-2 hits instead of a full spread. Its just not as OP as some people make it out to be given your size, maneuverability and the stationary meta the game is at now.

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7 minutes ago, Watboy said:

Bismark w hydro, I can still maneuver enough to have a chance at torpedo beats. But w FDG and GK, those massive barges, Hydro means I only take 1-2 hits instead of a full spread. Its just not as OP as some people make it out to be given your size, maneuverability and the stationary meta the game is at now.

Correct. Useful if you are moving even though you move turn like a giant house. 1 hit is still better than a full shima salvo.

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Secondary have zero skill? Well if you can blindly close to 12 km before being melted at high tier i gib you cookie.

Being in position where you can checkmate someone in secondary range with experience and good tactical decision making. Is harder than casual bow - stern tank while snipe from 20km range.

Edited by humusz
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To utilise KM BB secondaries, a lot of things need to take into consideration. Map awareness and the guts + tactics of a player to close in, spawn points, type of maps, weather conditions, and how willing are the teammates in pushing. Either one goes wrong, chances of using secondaries drop drastically. 

In short, too situational. A lot of things is not in control. 

And yeah so ironic some non KM BB has better secondaries accuracy without Manual secondaries than a KM BB with manual secondaries. 

Yeah some may argue Kreml has poor dispersion if target is more than 16km away, but Kreml can better tank her way into position, better rudder than a GK with rudder mod, superb AA, and once in 15km, main guns become super accurate. 

 

2 hours after this post

Edit: just had a losing streak in GK URGHHH. Took out Kremlin for a spin, feels so good man (deep in my heart, pressed "F" for GK)

Edited by Darkworld_2015
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In my dreams i'll push a cap, draw all the fire. Red DD's come out trying to get torps off, but my radar cruisers came up with me and expose them for my secondaries. My teammates push with me or flank the enemy and we take the cap, bag 4 kills and i still have 40% of my health left. But in reality, all i get is back line camping BB's calling out for intelligence, and island humping cruisers yelling at me to fall back.

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12 hours ago, Watboy said:

In my dreams i'll push a cap, draw all the fire. Red DD's come out trying to get torps off, but my radar cruisers came up with me and expose them for my secondaries. My teammates push with me or flank the enemy and we take the cap, bag 4 kills and i still have 40% of my health left. But in reality, all i get is back line camping BB's calling out for intelligence, and island humping cruisers yelling at me to fall back.

welp, there was once in i was with a div of minotaur, DM, and a shima, plus a random montana while I was in GK. it was unfortunate that the shima was sunk at first 5 mintues of the game and the whole match going down hill. No choice but I asked for support while charging into the cap. DM and Mino responded and followed but the Monty just hang back.And you can guess how it turned out and frustrating it was.

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In my limited game experience, barely 3 months of daily play, I feel the best way to buff the German BB's is to improve the heal. Faster reload time and better ship reprint will enable German BB's to tank and perform to their design parameters. A little less dispersion would also be welcome, but that only reinforces the current sitting back and sniping meta, whereas a heal buff only would not.

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On 10/4/2019 at 7:09 PM, Watboy said:

Say that to Massachusetts and Georgia. KM's have the HE pen buff so I find IFHE is not needed, but manual secondaries makes a difference. For my MA and GA, I run IFHE but find that the secondaries are accurate enough that ManSec is not needed, and better to be able to have all guns blazing when things get hairy. But the MA and GA guns are vastly more dependable.

You illustrate my point well.  Mass and Georgia are both strong ships, but they have weaker gun systems to make up for their secondaries.  Mass has very short range and 1.7 sigma, while Georgia has only 6 guns at T9.

This makes it harder to leverage them.  Taken as overall packages, both ships are quite strong, but the secondary focus gives them a low skill floor.  This means that while lesser skilled players will do better in them than their other comparable BB's, the higher skilled players will do worse, since they have less tools to use in their favour.  This is exactly the same as KM BB's - although they are less powerful as a package, they still have the low skill floor issues, and the difficulty in leveraging their strengths becomes significant when the ships are overall a bit underpowered instead of a a bit too strong like Mass and Georgia.

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2 hours ago, Moggytwo said:

You illustrate my point well.  Mass and Georgia are both strong ships, but they have weaker gun systems to make up for their secondaries.  Mass has very short range and 1.7 sigma, while Georgia has only 6 guns at T9.

This makes it harder to leverage them.  Taken as overall packages, both ships are quite strong, but the secondary focus gives them a low skill floor.  This means that while lesser skilled players will do better in them than their other comparable BB's, the higher skilled players will do worse, since they have less tools to use in their favour.  This is exactly the same as KM BB's - although they are less powerful as a package, they still have the low skill floor issues, and the difficulty in leveraging their strengths becomes significant when the ships are overall a bit underpowered instead of a a bit too strong like Mass and Georgia.

GA's 6 guns is not to balance it for its secondaries, its to balance it for its gun size and accuracy. I'm not saying secondary ships don't need weakness elsewhere. I'm saying that back in the day KM ships guns were inaccurate and it was balanced. But it has become the victim of power creep, that MA is considered balanced today with guns that are not remotely as gawdawful, is my proof. I don't know what your point is, no one is saying that secondaries is not a good feature and that ships need to be weak elsewhere to balance. Are you saying KM BBs are balanced now?

We all know WG has power creep. And they will do the whole "its fine" for extended periods of times, and then massive incoming buff comes in. They'll never admit something was too weak, even if it takes massive buff's to balance.

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Hahaha. "secondaries take no skill". It takes all the skill in the world to get in close without dying and then it takes skill to stay alive while your secondaries blaze away. All while in a ship doused in flammable liquids and made of guncotton while most of your team sit back and have a tea party. Yeah. No skill. 

For this rare moment, I am with humusz on this one.

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