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Watboy

Physics of extending range

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Random question I had. Range and time to target should be a function of shell mass, air resistance, muzzle velocity and firing angle. When modifiers extend range (BFT, modules), what changes? Presumably the ballistics within the base range is unchanged, ie there isn't faster muzzle velocity or time to target, is air resistance just lowered for shots going further out?

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Dispersion will just follow the same formula of that ship at any range.

Sigma doesn't change at any range.

Shell drag coefficient will determine how much speed the shells retain at range. Shell speed, IMO, determines angle of impact and travel time.

Krupp value determines the 'hardness' of the shell, in turns determines the shell's penetration power.

Penetration is also affected by range, so it seems that speed does affect penetration.

Edited by Paladinum

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What I meant was, for shells to travel further than base max range, it needs to either have higher muzzle velocity, heavier mass, or lower air resistance. Somehow range must be extended without changing the ballistics of base range shots.

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You know this is NOT a simulator of any sort, right? Also you cannot shoot at more than current max range.

Ok, don't understand what you mean.

Edited by Paladinum

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Its called Order, Skipper

Admirality have Grand Fleet Battle Instructions (GFBI) and Grand Fleet Battle Order (GFBO) at Jutland. It limit the engagement range and cordinate tactics bassed on fleet training and Hi command tactical manuver.

Quote on quote  “on a clear day and unless the enemy opens fire earlier, 13.5-inch-gun ships will open deliberate fire at 15,000 yards, 12-inch … at 13,000 yards … At extreme range fire should be deliberate salvos until the enemy is hit or straddled … ships should not employ rapid fire at ranges over 10,000 yards

ie : British gun can fire up to 20.000 Yards. Brits GFCS cant gurantee Decisive hit at range beyond 15.000 yards. Jellicoe want decisive result not wasting shells so he decide the fleet need to get closer

 

also, There almost no soldier in battlefield. that shoot their rifles at maximum range of their rifle. even worse in Vietnam war - USAF was using shinny new sparrow missile that can fire up to 35km (BVR). but have  restrictive rules of engagement that generally prohibited BVR (beyond visual range) engagements. Because Pilots lack of training and being trigger happy and end up wasting missiles

Edited by humusz

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It is called maximum range for a reason.

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well , for a start , if you read the real world guns spec , pretty much all the guns in this game had a specified range that is fair portion shorter than real world , so let's just count that as effective range ( effective as in there is statistically fair % of hitting the target ) .. so extending the range mechanism is not that far fetched .. and yes the said formula is true for real world but this game take it much simpler but still generally fall on the same principle .. in real world , there is actual historical documented case of using some none too conventional mean to extend the range of guns both naval and terrestrial , the Le Fantasque class of French DD ( in real world ) can fire their 138.6mm guns out to a max of 20KM , but in sea trial one of them utilizing the rocking motion of the ship to fire at more than max elevation actually score recorded range of almost 21KM ( that's roughly 5 % extended ) and according to the text the sea was actually pretty calm on that trial ( actually required so they can had a neutral data set )

 

Edited by Mechfori

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2 hours ago, Watboy said:

What I meant was, for shells to travel further than base max range, it needs to either have higher muzzle velocity, heavier mass, or lower air resistance. Somehow range must be extended without changing the ballistics of base range shots.

They tilt the guns up more.  That's it.  Ballistics remain the same, it just starts at a different angle.  There is of course an actual max range where the shells reach their ballistic limit, but no ship in the game reaches it with any of the mods they are able to equip - I assume this is completely intentional by WG, and probably factors into their range and module decisions when they are designing a ship.

Edit:  Actually it seems some ships can reach their max range, Fletcher for example has a base range of 12.9km, with AFT and GFCS2 in slot 6 that goes out to 18.0km, but the ballistic limit of the US 127/38 Mk30 is about 15.8km.  At this point it is dropping at over 70° fall angle, and it's taken the shell 25s to get there.  It physically cannot go any further.  I'm tempted to test this in the training room and confirm that it doesn't make the range.

Edited by Moggytwo

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The crews on the USS Texas also managed to extend the gun range by flooding the ship on one side in order to gain some additional elevation angle for her guns during the Normandy Landing/D-Day.

However the game does not follow any law of physics. Because if it does, there would be no one can land any hit at any non-stationary targets except from brawling range. Moskva's shells for example; would have taken at least 21 seconds to reach the maximum range before any reductions taken into account (air drag, unstable sea level, etc.).

  • Cool 1

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7 hours ago, Paladinum said:

It is called maximum range for a reason.

To clarify

You have a ship w a base max range of X. If there is a ballistics model, then this is determined by muzzle velocity, weight of shell, air resistance, firing angle. When you equip a mod or BFT extending the max range by 20%. Assuming there's a ballistics model, how does it increase range? Does it increase angle meaning that base max range was capped by angle, or did the other parameters change, but in such a way that when firing close, there's no change in ballistics.

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5 hours ago, Moggytwo said:

They tilt the guns up more.  That's it.  Ballistics remain the same, it just starts at a different angle.  There is of course an actual max range where the shells reach their ballistic limit, but no ship in the game reaches it with any of the mods they are able to equip - I assume this is completely intentional by WG, and probably factors into their range and module decisions when they are designing a ship.

Edit:  Actually it seems some ships can reach their max range, Fletcher for example has a base range of 12.9km, with AFT and GFCS2 in slot 6 that goes out to 18.0km, but the ballistic limit of the US 127/38 Mk30 is about 15.8km.  At this point it is dropping at over 70° fall angle, and it's taken the shell 25s to get there.  It physically cannot go any further.  I'm tempted to test this in the training room and confirm that it doesn't make the range.

Sounds like the easiest way to deal with this, but for ships firing already lofty shells, seems like there's limits to how much range can be extended without changing some velocity/mass/drag parameters.

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Use more propellant charges.

 

Otherwise, video game magic.

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To increase range, the game allows higher angle of fire. The "range upgrades" are actually fire control system upgrades, allowing the effective targeting of targets at a new longer _effective_ maximum range. The game simple won't let you point guns at things you cannot target due to fire control system calibration limitations, even if the shells could ballistically reach out that far.  The ballistics of the shells  (muzzle velocity, mass, and drag) remain the same regardless of any range upgrades installed.

Edited by MeglaGnome

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2 hours ago, MeglaGnome said:

To increase range, the game allows higher angle of fire. The "range upgrades" are actually fire control system upgrades, allowing the effective targeting of targets at a new longer _effective_ maximum range. The game simple won't let you point guns at things you cannot target due to fire control system calibration limitations, even if the shells could ballistically reach out that far.  The ballistics of the shells  (muzzle velocity, mass, and drag) remain the same regardless of any range upgrades installed.

Thanks, makes total sense to me now.

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13 hours ago, Paladinum said:

Use more propellant charges.

 

Otherwise, video game magic.

Do like KSP: Moar BOOSTERS!

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