[work in progress] submarine gameplay

[PGM991]

take from gamecon it seem

interesting, to say the least

ASW work automatically as expected

sub speed increase to suit game as expected

but.... homimg torpedo!? THAT very interesting.

[PGM991]

Oops

I wasn't checking forum while posting this

please merge this thread with other if you seem like it.

[Manacetamol]

more problem

DD players, they shall know how to counter them

[Paladinum]

"Guided" torpedoes is cute, but unnecessary and needlessly convoluted (more than just 'complicated'). Just give them magnetic torpedoes.

Submerged speed needs to be slow, not suddenly fasten in deep dive. What the f**k?

Some DDs need to have Squid anti-sub mortars to increase anti-sub range.

[Puggsley]

Looks like another reason for DD players to rush forward and be successful.

Chasing after circles with CV's, radar ships and a sub popping up and down to spot you just to make sure you are spotted.

 

[dejiko_nyo]

1 hour ago, Paladinum said:

"Guided" torpedoes is cute, but unnecessary and simply plain dumb. Just give magnetic torpedoes.

Submerged speed needs to be slow, not suddenly fasten in deep dive. What the f**k?

Some DDs need to have Squid anti-sub mortars.

Just give me 2501-chan with her graviton weapons.

[Max_Battle]

1 hour ago, Paladinum said:

"Guided" torpedoes is cute, but unnecessary and simply plain dumb. Just give magnetic torpedoes.

Submerged speed needs to be slow, not suddenly fasten in deep dive. What the f**k?

Some DDs need to have Squid anti-sub mortars.

Wargaming: "You can't have Prinz Eugen in Cherry Blossom because this is historically unrealistic".

Wargaming: "Not all destroyers will have depth charges because this is historically unrealistic".

Also Wargaming: "WWII Submarines have homing torpedoes and can travel at up to 30 knots underwater".

Do they even hear themselves?

I don't mind if they say something is in the game or not because of game balance but this "historically unrealistic" reasoning is just plain self serving deception.

We know its a game not a simulation, they should just run with that.

And let me use German ships in Cherry Blossom - if it ever returns...

[Sparcie]

I just saw Ichase's video showing parts of the stream showing what the sub gameplay looks like.
Some comments.

Submerged speed is too fast, they should be significantly slower underwater (with the exception of the one type of  U-boat that was actually faster underwater). A separate submerged speed should totally be a specification of the ship we can see. I don't expect them to be as slow as IRL, but they're going as fast as they do on the surface and that isn't right.

I dunno about the whole homing torpedo business, that was something that only appeared late war, only the Germans, were slow and were prone to attacking the wrong ship or circling around and attacking the sub. With all the stealth the subs have are they really necessary? Is the homing ability limited in some way? Torpedoes able to circumvent torpedo defense by diving are sketchy too, depending on the damage these torps are planing on doing. Also submarines didn't use active sonar pings as that would have given them away. I can see their design being too effective.

As for the spotting, I totally think hydro should spot them at any depth as that represents active sonar. It would also give a few DD's better chance of sinking a sub quickly. DD's totally need more control over their ASW efforts and the proper weapons for each ship such as the squid/hedgehog mortars used. DD's shouldn't be spotted by the sub unless the sub is at periscope depth or surfaced, otherwise it's too risky for them to go on the hunt. The hydrophone mechanic seems interesting.

The subs detectability shouldn't be fixed based on depth, it needs to be a combination of depth and speed, except perhaps when surfaced. Going fast gets a sub places quickly but should make them more detectable at all depths, high speed equals maximum noise. Going slowly has the trade-off of not being seen as easily, but taking a long time to escape/travel.

I dunno about the ASW mechanic. Chasing circles doesn't look like a lot of fun, also if DD's are spotted by the subs when up close they are taking a big risk chasing the sub.  If it were up to me I'd have a similar hydrophone mechanic for locating the subs (based on how far, deep and how noisy they are, if they are quiet enough they won't be found) and an active sonar range (can be boosted by hydro) that gives a good indication of where to drop ordinance.

Ships other than DDs need a means of dealing with subs, many cruisers have ASW weapons and should be able to perform similar actions. BB's obviously don't have such weapons in general, but it should be feasible for a fast BB to be able to ram a sub at either periscope depth or surfaced (if it doesn't evade). Otherwise I'd expect maneuvering and speed should enable a BB to simply evade torpedoes if it can.

I'll be interested to see how it turns out when it comes to the testing stage.

[Grygus_Triss]

WG had one job, not make things harder for DDs.

BB: ”DD, go hunt down sub so we can go forward”

DD: “B-b-But enemy ships shooting at me, radar, planes OTHER DDs, and I have to cap now or we lose”

BB: “Just do you job DD, I’m doing mine” *Continues to shoot at targets from 20km away*

DD: “ok, fine...” *hunts sub, gets air spotted and bombed, smokes hp, gets radared, gets focus fired and dies*

BB: “Noob DD”

*Other team wins by points*

 

WG had another job too, not make things reliant on a single class.

*Subs in game, no CV, DDs already dead*

BB: “Well, I’m @#$&ed”

 

Ok, maybe WG had a lot of jobs, like not making subs a better spotter than DD.

Kagero: “La la la, I’m the stealthiest ship in game, no CV to bother me, doesn’t matter if I have low HP and armour if you can’t see me”

*Gets surface spotted*

Kagero: “ahhhh, how!?” *gets focus fired*

Cleveland: “I’ll help you” *uses radar, nothing appears*

Cleveland: “huh?” *gets focus fired*

[Paladinum]

35 minutes ago, Grygus_Triss said:

WG had one job, not make things harder for DDs.

DD population when subs are out: *cricket noise* *a lone tumbleweeb rolling by*

[dejiko_nyo]

8 minutes ago, Paladinum said:

DD population when subs are out: *cricket noise* *a lone tumbleweeb rolling by*

But seriously everyone, the elephant that has been eternally present in the room is that certain Bloody Boats refuse to go up and support their screeners. Obviously introduce all sorts of new fangled gadgets to "improve gameplay" but the elephant is still there: there is no disincentive to encourage people to push with their team.

[Paladinum]

9 minutes ago, dejiko_nyo said:

But seriously everyone, the elephant that has been eternally present in the room is that certain Bloody Boats refuse to go up and support their screeners. Obviously introduce all sorts of new fangled gadgets to "improve gameplay" but the elephant is still there: there is no disincentive to encourage people to push with their team.

I think I should play subs...

Me: *sneaking close to a lone sniping BB* *torp him a few times*

Him: "F*** off submarine"

Me: "If you go closer to your teammates who are fighting my teammates and actually help your team, I will stop"

[Razoknight]

I can't imagine someone will make fun of submarines with JoJo memes like, "I can't beat shit up of u without getting closer" XD

[dejiko_nyo]

20 minutes ago, Paladinum said:

Me: "If you go closer to your teammates who are fighting my teammates and actually help your team, I will stop"

Yes. Because it'd be already sunk and you wouldn't have to waste torpedoes anymore. >_>

[Paladinum]

4 minutes ago, dejiko_nyo said:

Yes. Because it'd be already sunk and you wouldn't have to waste torpedoes anymore. >_>

That's one of the points, yes.

[Grygus_Triss]

4 hours ago, Paladinum said:

DD population when subs are out: *cricket noise* *a lone tumbleweeb rolling by*

I can’t wait to see all the BBabies crying “Sub op, pls nerf”

*Shimakaze laughing in the background*

 

Seriously Though, As a multi class player, Who enjoys BBs and does not know the meaning of the word ‘snipe’, but frequently says “come back guys I can’t retreat as fast as you”, I do want some ability to counter subs. Does not have to be fantastic, but at least as good as the ability to counter DDs.

[GOMBEE8626]

Thank you for your opinions, captains. Well the game balance is still the biggest assignment for us...

[Thyaliad]

8 hours ago, Max_Battle said:

Do they even hear themselves?

I don't mind if they say something is in the game or not because of game balance but this "historically unrealistic" reasoning is just plain self serving deception.

Precisely. If it is for balance reasons, just say it is for balance reasons.

The historical justification is incredibly arbitrary at this point. It is used to justify WG's decisions, yet at the same time discarded when it goes against said decision.

It is nonsense really. WG doesn't really care about historical accuracy. For example Yuudachi - engaged in one of the most intense close quarters battles in the WWII, yet has the longest range torps at her tier. Also I am still salty about the completely unhistoric plane loadouts on CVs, especially IJN (glares at Kaga).